[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion

[Tijgy]

3 hours ago, lorienelf said:

 

• All of our "broken men" (who have some of my favorite arcs in the books), Theon, Sandor, and Jamie, get fucked by this episode. Jamie in the Riverlands without his Kingsguard armor and pining for Cersei makes the whole thing pointless, I don't care how much book dialogue they threw at the wall. In the book he feels broken, likeshe's trying to rebuild himself. Here, he just threw on Lannister armor after being dismissed from the Kingsguard and is a-okay. And Sandor...they're really into pointless deaths/resurrections/near-deaths, aren't they? Why bother? I guess now he's..extra vengeful? What a waste.

Actually, the child who calls him constantly broken did not even appear in this episode.

 

[The Boastful Knight]

29 minutes ago, rayarts said:

R.I.P. Sansa. Hale Sandra, the pouty-plotless-stupid beauty from the North.

That's right, at least now the fandom doesn't have to come up with a name for her. Seriously though, that's pretty lame that they didn't notice that in editing (I'm sure there was another take where the kid got the name right). All in all, her performance was the highlight of this episode still.

[Ser Quork]

7 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

yep, lady Sandra, hahaha

Show name acquired.  Fansa has left the building. 

6 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

Show Jon's main worth is when he has a sword in his hands. They have built up Jon as an action figure, but failed to show his political skills and growth as a leader. He leads in battles, that is all. The show will give Jon his moment of worth during the Battle of the Bastards, when he is in his action sequence. That will be enough to convince the Northerners that he should be KitN. 

It is really unfortunate, book Jon is allot smarter than his show counterpart and would not have fell flat on his face, like he did in this episode. In the books he holds his ground when dealing with Stannis Baratheon, gradually starts giving 0 f*cks about what people think about him, and is Stannis's best adviser in taking back the North (tells him to win over the Hill Clans, the geographic weaknesses to look out for and what Houses to trust). Show Jon has none of this political cunning. They have done a real disservice to his character in this regard. 

What is most frustrating is that this season should have been Jon's biggest. He was resurrected, which has been completely glossed over (so much for kill the boy, let the man be born), will likely become KitN and his true parentage will be revealed. Since episode 3 (killing the mutineers) he has been really underwhelming. It seems like they are pinning everything on his performance in episode 9. 

 

 

Yep, another arc obliterated by their "creative" choices.

2 hours ago, Hour of the Wolf said:

I know that I like to be out of earshot of any possible massacre when I chop wood for my friends.

Wouldn't want any distractions, would we.

[A Dance with Davos]

5 hours ago, Gargarax said:

Oh, by the way: I've never been a huge Stannis fan in the book, but I totally see his worth now. He had some of the only good scenes in S5 and is one of the things I really miss.

I think they really messed up killing Stannis last season. It does depend on whether or not he does defeat the Boltons in the books. If he doesn't. Fair enough. If he is the one to defeat them they should have kept it. I feel like the whole reason we have most of the North turning against Jon/ Sansa and an imprisoned Rickon to side with the Boltons is to try their hardest to force in some tension and difficulty for Jon in his inevitable victory. Everyone knows they are going to defeat them. Jon, Sansa, Tormund and Davos could turn up at the Walls of Winterfell with rocks and they'd win. 

It's amazing that an arc with Jon, Sansa, Davos, Melisandre and a little bit of Brienne can be so boring and predictable.  

A problem I had with this episode and it is something that has been going on throughout the season is... Theon and his ever changing psychological state. He leaves Sansa declaring he will go home and seems pretty confident. Meets Yara and reverts back to Reek (It did make sense, but the Sansa scene made it seem a little strange). Then the Kings Moot he seems to be filled with confidence again. Now this episode he is broken. 

 

[protar]

3 hours ago, Illiterati said:

I respectfully argue that young Lady Mormont didn't have an anti-Stark attitude, but rather questioned whether she should consider the two that were facing her as Starks.

But why does she do that? Okay Jon sure, he's a bastard. But Sansa is clearly a Stark. The fact that she was forced into two marriages shouldn't change that. Does Lyanna think that Sansa's allegiances lie with the Bolton's or the Lannisters? And then they mention an indisputable Stark - Rickon. And Lyanna barely acknowledges it. She's convinced by tales of snarks and grumpkins, not by the Stark heir being captive.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, protar said:

But why does she do that? Okay Jon sure, he's a bastard. But Sansa is clearly a Stark. The fact that she was forced into two marriages shouldn't change that. Does Lyanna think that Sansa's allegiances lie with the Bolton's or the Lannisters? And then they mention an indisputable Stark - Rickon. And Lyanna barely acknowledges it. She's convinced by tales of snarks and grumpkins, not by the Stark heir being captive.

But Sansa was not forced into marrying Ramsay. This is D&D's main problem - they don't get cause and effect. If you make these kinds of major changes then there will be consequences down the road. Here they at least made it internally consistent, even if a weaker plot than had it been left alone.

[watcher of the night]

It is a bit strange that Rickon is basically completely forgotten in both discussions (Mormont, Glover); when he is clearly the head of House Starks atm. It is also strange that Jon&Sansa do not mention the letter threatening Rickon. Both Mormont and Glover pledged loyalty to the Starks, Rickon is a Stark, so what is the fuss about? This seems to evolve into a plothole comparable to the Dorne&Sandsnakes storyline ...

[43ry5274rg4ry3n]

On 6/6/2016 at 3:20 AM, Arya Gendry said:

Summary:

The Hound is alive, chillin with Meribald/Elder Brother and a gaggle of followers. He is strong. Exposition about how he was found near death, but saved.

Margery is super devout. The High Sparrow wants her to convert the QoT. Marge says sure, and tells Olenna to leave town. Septa Unella is watching their convo, but Marge slips granny a sketch of a rose. SHOCK. Margery is a big fat faker.

The wildlings don't want to fight with Jon, but Wun Wun says "SNOW," so it's on. They've got his back.

Cersei visits the QoT. Olenna tells her that every problem in KL is entirely Cersei's fault, because she's an idiot. Carol agrees, but says that they need to stick together to beat the holy birds. QoT ain't having it, and points out that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE IN THE WORLD hates her guts.

Jamie and Bronn lead the host to Riverrun. The Freys threaten to hang Edmure. Blackfish is like, whatevs. Jamie goes to talk to him, the conversation is very much like the book, ending in Jamie's humiliation.

Jon, Sansa, and Davos meet with Lady Lyanna of Mormont. She's 10 years old, but still a better leader and bigger badass than Carol will ever be. After stringing the trio along for a while, she promises her support for the battle...along with all of her men...all 62 of them.

Then they go to the Glovers looking for support. Lord Glover is like...no. I will not fight with wildlings. Sansa tries to bully him and fails miserably.

The Ironborn are somewhere that looks like Volantis, so OK. Theon is sad and Yara is now a lesbian. She wants to go get Daenarys. So, Theon + Yara = Victarion.

Davos points out that they might be screwed. Sansa sends a raven to...Littlefinger? We don't know.

Meribald/EB holds an Outlaws Anonymous meeting while the Hound watches. Three bad men ride up and act vaguely threatening. One is wearing a yellow cloak. Are they the BWB? They leave.

Arya drops a load of silver to buy a cabin on a boat to Westeros. While staring longingly at the Titan's ass, an old lady that everyone knows is the Waif walks up to her and stabs her in the gut three times. She drops into the river, climbs out, and wanders around looking scared. 

The Hound chops wood like the strong man that he is. He walks back to camp to find everyone slaughtered and Meribald/EB hanged. He looks very, very mad and picks up an ax.

And..........that's a wrap. Episode was 45-46 minutes long.

 

 

Thank you! I enjoyed that way more than the episode itself! Could you perhaps write a summary for every episode in season 6? 

[Stark_Contrast]

1 hour ago, Super Mario said:

But Sansa was not forced into marrying Ramsay. This is D&D's main problem - they don't get cause and effect. If you make these kinds of major changes then there will be consequences down the road. Here they at least made it internally consistent, even if a weaker plot than had it been left alone.

In all fairness, Sandra has a VERY strong cover story.  I don't think there is a single northerner that would imagine anything other than the marriage was forceful. That's the advantage of doing the unexpected.

[Nami]

17 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

People are really nuts.  I just read a theory to try and explain the stupidity of Arya/Bobcut...which is (1) that there is no Bobcut, she's Arya's other self, or (2) that it wasn't Arya but was Bathrobe Not Jaquen..(3) Arya is running some other con and was wearing maybe I dunno, mithrail.

Anything except to admit that the show simply wrote a really clumsy segment where Arya acts stupid and should be dead of her wounds but will somehow miraculously live after being stabbed in the abdomen multiple times because Bobcut is the worst FM ever, except when she beat the shit out of Arya every time they fought, and Arya couldn't beat her even when she was disarmed.  LOL.

They aimed for shock value as usual even if it's impossible for her to survive.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

9 hours ago, Nami said:

Every house has their own uniform. It's quite ridiculous the repetition of outfits in this show. The QoT has the same clothes of the first scene she appeared in season 3 (?).

I'm happy to nitpick the show, and indeed to shit all over it, but I gotta disagree here. In fact, I wish they'd do it more; it could spare us some clunky dialogue. ("Hello, [family member]! When I last saw you, you were at [family home]!")

Have you ever watched Generation Kill? It's the greatest shit ever, but the first time I watched it I had a hell of a time telling one character from the next, because they all have the exact same haircut and clothes (they're soldiers). TV ain't like books; it's impossible to misidentify a character in a book, because the narrator always uses their names. In TV, or any visual medium, we don't have that luxury. It becomes especially problematic when there's a lot of characters. Why do you think they give superheroes brightly-coloured uniforms in the comics?

[Ruhail]

2 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

It is a bit strange that Rickon is basically completely forgotten in both discussions (Mormont, Glover); when he is clearly the head of House Starks atm. It is also strange that Jon&Sansa do not mention the letter threatening Rickon. Both Mormont and Glover pledged loyalty to the Starks, Rickon is a Stark, so what is the fuss about? This seems to evolve into a plothole comparable to the Dorne&Sandsnakes storyline ...

Jon is too thick to remember

[The Knight in Motley]

38 minutes ago, Stark_Contrast said:

In all fairness, Sandra has a VERY strong cover story.  I don't think there is a single northerner that would imagine anything other than the marriage was forceful. That's the advantage of doing the unexpected.

In all reality, they should have given her Lady Hornwood's story, never brought Rickon back, and have her being locked in a tower the rallying cry of the northern lords and Jon's banner.  Sansa's 'empowerment' tale has done nothing for Sansa, and its wrecking the other plots around it.

[Dolorous Gabe]

2 hours ago, Super Mario said:

But Sansa was not forced into marrying Ramsay. This is D&D's main problem - they don't get cause and effect. If you make these kinds of major changes then there will be consequences down the road. Here they at least made it internally consistent, even if a weaker plot than had it been left alone.

Whether she made a choice or was tricked into it depends on what the show runners want to happen in a scene.

They like to play fast and loose with bendable "facts" and characters.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

19 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

In all reality, they should have given her Lady Hornwood's story, never brought Rickon back, and have her being locked in a tower the rallying cry of the northern lords and Jon's banner.  Sansa's 'empowerment' tale has done nothing for Sansa, and its wrecking the other plots around it.

Good idea, would have worked - but with their politics, would HBO/D&D have gone for it? It seems like everyone involved is keen for the show to be feminist-friendly (but with as much rape as possible - actually, perhaps the female empowerment narratives are just there to disarm feminist critics, so that they can squeeze in even more rapes?). I can picture the Jezebel articles about "damsels in distress" and "princesses in towers" and so on.

[SweetPea]

2 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

It is a bit strange that Rickon is basically completely forgotten in both discussions (Mormont, Glover); when he is clearly the head of House Starks atm. It is also strange that Jon&Sansa do not mention the letter threatening Rickon. Both Mormont and Glover pledged loyalty to the Starks, Rickon is a Stark, so what is the fuss about? This seems to evolve into a plothole comparable to the Dorne&Sandsnakes storyline ...

Sandra and Jon sucked so much this episode. Jon especially. Mormont and Glover ask why they should help them and they just stand there quietly with their heads bowed. WTF? The Boltons betrayed the northmen at the Red Wedding, Sandra was raped by Ramsey, Rickon Stark (heir to House Stark) is being held captive (which means Bran is probably alive too), the Others are coming and Jon was resurrected after being dead for days, maybe he came back for a reason, no? But they don't say anything. What is wrong with them? Why the hell did Jon even die in the show? He got a new haircut and became a little bitch. Oh and fuck Ghost right? Jon didn't even learn to keep his direwolf by his side. He was the one character that remained somewhat faithful to his book counterpart and now they managed to ruin even him.

[Low Sparrow]

3 hours ago, Super Mario said:

But Sansa was not forced into marrying Ramsay. This is D&D's main problem - they don't get cause and effect. If you make these kinds of major changes then there will be consequences down the road. Here they at least made it internally consistent, even if a weaker plot than had it been left alone.

That is exactly it (the problems the stupidity of this plot arc has caused). Some people seem to miss this. Sandra was a prisoner at King's Landing when she was forced to marry Tyrion. The Boltons did not force her to do anything.

She rode up to the castle, on a horse, on a journey that took days ... of her own will. Bad advice is not a defense. That marriage with Ramsay, unlike her forced Lannister marriage, was "consumated." Lyanna is right, Sandra is now Lady Bolton.

She may be a victim. The consummation definitely did not go the way any woman should ever endure. But, she knew the Boltons had betrayed her family, she knew they had overtaken her castle, and even every illiterate idiot in the North knows what the Flayed Man Sygil represents. She entered that ceremony aware.

So now, here she is, in the North where she shouldn't even be, her character having been delegitemized by bad writing. She's stepping all over everyone else's plot arcs, especially Jon's. Of course, every scene she is in is going to suck because it is impossible for any sense to be written into it.

 

[Gargarax]

3 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

It is a bit strange that Rickon is basically completely forgotten in both discussions (Mormont, Glover); when he is clearly the head of House Starks atm. It is also strange that Jon&Sansa do not mention the letter threatening Rickon. Both Mormont and Glover pledged loyalty to the Starks, Rickon is a Stark, so what is the fuss about? This seems to evolve into a plothole comparable to the Dorne&Sandsnakes storyline ...

That bothered me too. It should be so much easier for Sandra and Jon to win over the Northern Houses than it was for Stannis and Davos, especially with Rickon, heir to the Stark line, as the prisoner of Ramsy, a known torturer and the son of kingslayer Roose Bolton. Convincing other Houses to join them should be as hard as convincing Tyrion to drink or Sansa to have a lemon cake (or the writers to add another dick joke).

But of course it has to be tough, because if it was easy, that would be dramatically unsatisfying. In other words: bad story decisions in season 5 have resulted in just more bad writing in season 6, because so many thing have stopped to make any sense. I take any bet they never even did a thorough outline of the plot each season is supposed to cover - they just decide (creatively!) what they want to happen and then ignore all logic to somehow make it happen ... 

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Gargarax said:

That bothered me too. It should be so much easier for Sandra and Jon to win over the Northern Houses than it was for Stannis and Davos, especially with Rickon, heir to the Stark line, as the prisoner of Ramsy, a known torturer and the son of kingslayer Roose Bolton. Convincing other Houses to join them should be as hard as convincing Tyrion to drink or Sansa to have a lemon cake (or the writers to add another dick joke).

But of course it has to be tough, because if it was easy, that would be dramatically unsatisfying. In other words: bad story decisions in season 5 have resulted in just more bad writing in season 6, because so many thing have stopped to make any sense. I take any bet they never even did a thorough outline of the plot each season is supposed to cover - they just decide (creatively!) what they want to happen and then ignore all logic to somehow make it happen ... 

Plus, um they both, Jon and Sansa, know that Bran is also alive, and have not spoken about it, or done jack shit about it.  And Sansa knows her sister is/was alive also, and not done jack about it.  The more I think about it, neither of them do deserve anyone in the North to follow them, they're both dimwitted and now disloyal.

Although, I can't say that watching the two dopes fail and fail in getting the North to rally for them is very dramatically satisfying.  It will rob their eventual victory of any sense of victory, it won't be the North rallying for the Starks, it will be the two nitwits getting WF back in spite of the North, that's awful storytelling to gut such a huge huge milestone likethat.

[Gargarax]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Plus, um they both, Jon and Sansa, know that Bran is also alive, and have not spoken about it, or done jack shit about it.  And Sansa knows her sister is/was alive also, and not done jack about it.  The more I think about it, neither of them do deserve anyone in the North to follow them, they're both dimwitted and now disloyal.

Although, I can't say that watching the two dopes fail and fail in getting the North to rally for them is very dramatically satisfying.  It will rob their eventual victory of any sense of victory, it won't be the North rallying for the Starks, it will be the two nitwits getting WF back in spite of the North, that's awful storytelling to gut such a huge huge milestone likethat.

Now that you mention it ... oh dear. So Theon and Brienne told Sansa that House Stark is intact, but this information is of no importance to the plot? Why tell them then? Why have those two scenes that are not in the book, if they are of zero importance?

And yeah, there will be nothing glorious about retaking Winterfell if they are doing such a clumsy job of planning it. LF will save the day and no merit at all will go to the Starks. The first three books and the first four seasons were about the Starks, so why just give them up ... Incredible how they waste so much dramatic potential for a nonsensical story in which all it takes to lead is having a big cock.