US Elections: My religion Trumps yours

[CBeck113]

The simple fact that Hillary and Donald are the candidates for the two major parties only shows that America's lack of education funding is now paying off.  We have two clearly inept candidates, and no one is standing up and challenging the system.  Why? Because everyonewho could make a change is owned, even Bernie...which was probably the biggest disappointment from all of this, I at least believed that he wanted change, which flew out the window the moment he endorsed HC.

Instead everyone is caught up in "Reps are sooooo stupid...."  and "Nooooo, Dems are sooooooooooo stuuuupid".  I don't want to point out the elephant in the room, but it doesn't matter who you elect, they are only going to serve their backers, who have the common goal of taking the money out of your pockets.  They want nothing else, and have no interest in the long-term effects of their actions.

[Fez]

6 minutes ago, CBeck113 said:

The simple fact that Hillary and Donald are the candidates for the two major parties only shows that America's lack of education funding is now paying off.  We have two clearly inept candidates, and no one is standing up and challenging the system.  Why? Because everyonewho could make a change is owned, even Bernie...which was probably the biggest disappointment from all of this, I at least believed that he wanted change, which flew out the window the moment he endorsed HC.

Instead everyone is caught up in "Reps are sooooo stupid...."  and "Nooooo, Dems are sooooooooooo stuuuupid".  I don't want to point out the elephant in the room, but it doesn't matter who you elect, they are only going to serve their backers, who have the common goal of taking the money out of your pockets.  They want nothing else, and have no interest in the long-term effects of their actions.

Whoa. What's it like living in the year 2000? 

[BloodRider]

2 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Who said anything about trusting him? Neither can be trusted but at least he believes in what he's saying. Hillary's sole focus is to be President, not to lead, not to improve anything, but to be President and she's proven she's more than willing to lie, cheat, steal & change accents to do it. Trump at least truly wants to make things better. Can he? Who knows. Some things will improve, others won't. But I don't think the country can survive 4-8 years of the Hillary 'I'm a woman in the White House' tour. She's just trying to make her mark on history, the country needs much more than that right now.

A snake oil seller who uses their own product is still selling snake oil.  And has been fooled to boot.  An Amway marketer who really thinks they will one day be a millionaire, and you will be too is still selling a pyramid scheme.  And has been scammed, to boot.  Are you catching my drift here.

[Kalbear]

8 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Dear Lord, you can't be serious.

This is precisely the trouble with the Hillary drones. The Trump supporters I know generally feel he's an ass, they see him for what he is but feel he's the better of two bad options. The Hillary supporters I know can't see her for what she is at all and seem to think she's actually a good option. Talk about delusional.

Trump lies more than any other political candidate that the digital age has ever had. Ever.

He has completely reversed positions on things like abortion laws and punishments within an actual day. 

The doublethink that is required to make these facts into a means of showing his sincerity is pretty insane.

[Rory Snow]

58 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Has anyone on the forum said this?  I'm pretty sure they haven't, and if they did, I'm pretty sure they'd be called out for it. 

I was unaware that this forum is the beginning and end of political discussion and Hillary support in particular

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

21 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I'm making fun of the use of the term in a derogatory fashion.  It's stupid.

Exactly

1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

Finally someone who identifies objectivity. Just because I'm not a mindless Hillary drone doesn't make me a Trump toadie. Frankly I think, regardless of the outcome, this election may be the worst thing that's happened to the US in my lifetime.

Not sure how people don't understand this take. Trump supporters know he's an asshole because it's blatant and as a non politician he sucks at hiding it, but they support him because they believe he's the better of two bad options. Hillary supporters can't see that she's an asshole because she's a career politician and is good at hiding it and thus they support her because they've been fooled into thinking she's actually a good option. Need proof? Hillary folks think Melania Trump plagiarizing a couple lines is a bigger deal than Hillary's email debacle. Now THAT is being fooled. 

As for me, I'm hoping they're both forced to withdraw due to some horrible and disabling bikini waxing accident. If ever there was a need and a time for a viable 3rd party candidate, this is it. 

First, I didn't say I agreed with you, just that arguing isn't going to be productive.

Second, I'll attempt to do so anyway. It's a complete strawman to say that people think "Melania Trump plagiarizing a couple lines is a bigger deal than Hillary's email debacle." Trump's plagiarism only happened yesterday, and while by itself isn't that big a deal, does point to his campaigns lack of competence and internal scrutiny. "Hire the best people" my ass.

But that isn't what people don't like about Trump. What we don't like about Trump is his constant lying about his net worth, his repeated bankruptcies, taking advantage of bankruptcy laws to screw over his investors, his constant screwing over of contractors, Trump University, saying that a respected judge (who had received death threats from drug cartels) shouldn't be allowed to preside over a case due to his race, his race baiting, his hate mongering, his crude insults to any woman he comes in conflict with, his crude compliments to any women he happens to 'like', and the fact that every third sentence of his contains a lie.

Trump's mere candidacy has done irreparable damage to American political norms and racial harmony.

2 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I don't read it that way with the Clinton stalwarts on the Board at all.  

That being said, she didn't do anything illegal. One can question the judgement that went into the server, but at this point it is nothing but smoke and mirrors diverting from actual policy discussions.

The issue isn't whether or not it was illegal, but whether or not it was wrong. She managed to violate OpSec and the principle of government transparency at the same time. If a career civil servant had done what Clinton had done, his or her career would have ended, at the least.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

45 minutes ago, Fez said:

The one thing I'll say in Ryan's defense, and it was something seemingly no one at the convention noticed, is that he repeatedly said 'the Democratic party.' It has been accepted for years in Republican circles to only ever say 'the Democrat party,' no matter how bad the grammar is or how incorrect it is to try to change something else's proper name, because they are trying to prevent any association between the Democratic party and democratic values. 

Which is just so stupid, but like many stupid things Republicans believe, they've accepted it wholesale. And the fact that Ryan didn't do it, be it knowingly or subconsciously, suggests that he understands just how much bullshit his party is in to. 

That's a pretty low bar for praise, Fez. 

46 minutes ago, Fez said:

I regularly get the sense that Ryan is trying to pull a von Papen, only he thinks he can do it successfully. He just wants to dismantle the Federal government in peace, but needs support from people who want all these other things to have any leverage.

Pretty much. I think he's convinced himself that Trump will just sign what the House and Senate Republicans pass. Which is completely delusional. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

Trump's odds, as per 538, are now 40% of winning the election (up from 20% just a few scant weeks ago). I am hoping this is the high water mark of his candidacy, hard to see how he builds up support from here with a Democratic convention and VP announcement. Still, the fact that he is within touching distance does lead to some jitters.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

WWTR,

The use of the term "Social Justice Warrior" as a term of insult for others is, and remains, a stupid usage.

[Maithanet]

17 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

I was unaware that this forum is the beginning and end of political discussion and Hillary support in particular

Of course it's not, but there are plenty of Clinton supporters here to engage with.  Why would you call out "Clinton drones" for saying things elsewhere, rather than the opinions that are actually expressed here?  How are we supposed to engage in conversation if you are criticizing opinions no one in this thread actually supports?  

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

12 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

WWTR,

The use of the term "Social Justice Warrior" as a term of insult for others is, and remains, a stupid usage.

And the fact that you say so puts you solidly in the American Left.

[Fez]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

That's a pretty low bar for praise, Fez. 

Pretty much. I think he's convinced himself that Trump will just sign what the House and Senate Republicans pass. Which is completely delusional. 

I didn't say it as praise, just as something interesting to note.

I'm not sure he's wrong either. There's a report today that Trump offered Kasich the VP slot back in May, before he dropped out, saying that he'd been in charge of domestic AND foreign policy. Trump has no interest in governing and I think will sign whatever gets put in front of him.

Ryan's problem is that there's enough of his caucus who want what Trump wants, rather than what he wants, that he'll end up having to pass bills he doesn't want to pass. The House Freedom Caucus is, and will continue to be, his biggest obstacle.

On the other hand, he also doesn't want to take the principled stand, because if he splits the party that basically ensures Democrats take the House along with the Senate and Presidency and then he has no leverage. Ryan's proven that he can operate in the normal parameters of governance when necessary and is willing to cut deals with Democrats to preserve the status quo in the hopes that he'll have a better bargaining position in the future. So its not really a bad thing for him if Clinton wins, or even if Democrats take the Senate, so long as he still has the House. But if he loses the House, its all over for him personally and his vision for America would be set back considerably, even if Republicans took back the House in 2018.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

33 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

And the fact that you say so puts you solidly in the American Left.

[aceluby]

2 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Finally someone who identifies objectivity. Just because I'm not a mindless Hillary drone doesn't make me a Trump toadie. Frankly I think, regardless of the outcome, this election may be the worst thing that's happened to the US in my lifetime.

Not sure how people don't understand this take. Trump supporters know he's an asshole because it's blatant and as a non politician he sucks at hiding it, but they support him because they believe he's the better of two bad options. Hillary supporters can't see that she's an asshole because she's a career politician and is good at hiding it and thus they support her because they've been fooled into thinking she's actually a good option. Need proof? Hillary folks think Melania Trump plagiarizing a couple lines is a bigger deal than Hillary's email debacle. Now THAT is being fooled. 

As for me, I'm hoping they're both forced to withdraw due to some horrible and disabling bikini waxing accident. If ever there was a need and a time for a viable 3rd party candidate, this is it. 

Whether someone is or isn't an asshole should play very little into whether you vote for that person.  Policy proposals and ideas for the future should.  Building a wall is fucking stupid.  Denying immigration due to religion is fucking stupid AND unconstitutional.  'Locking down' the internet is fucking stupid, fascist, and also unconstitutional.  Then there's the constant war drum beating, the need to send troops to defeat ISIS, the complete lack of ability to stay on point for more than 30 seconds, the constant flip flopping over domestic and social issues.....  None of this has anything to do with how much of an asshole he is; or whether or not he can hide it well.  These are TERRIBLE ideas from a guy who has bankrupted multiple businesses, refuses to release his tax records, makes bad business deals, doesn't pay his contractors, whose workers despise him and won't vote for him, and has been guilty or settled out of court every other week for 30 years.

Hillary Clinton on the other hand has solid proposals, has a TON of foreign policy experience, has been investigated multiple times and NEVER found enough evidence to indict, much less convict, and has one of the best resumes for President than most people who have ever run in the history of the country.  Again, nothing about how much or little of an asshole she is.  Policy.  Proposals.  Actual ability to express what your vision for the country is and be able to stay on point about it for more than a minute.

If you actually think she's a bad option for President it's because you're looking at the wrong things to qualify or disqualify someone for President, or you're simply being willfully ignorant of the fact that she's a great fucking candidate.

And before you start going on about 'HillaryBots', please know that I fully supported Sanders during the primaries and thought his proposals fit better with what I think would be best for this country; but that I also understand that Hillary is a great candidate and will be an amazing President.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

An Op-Ed from the LA Times speculating what the US Military would do when illegal orders (target and kill the families of "terrorists" for example) were received after a hypothetical Trump win of the Presidency:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-republican-convention-dispatches-20160719-snap-story.html

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Hillary folks think Melania Trump plagiarizing a couple lines is a bigger deal than Hillary's email debacle. Now THAT is being fooled. 

 No, sketches regarding Melania Trump's plagiarism are 23% funnier than sketches involving Hilary's email scandal.

 

 

[mormont]

Seems timely

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/theres-probably-nothing-that-will-change-clinton-or-trump-supporters-minds/

Quote

Fact-checking Trump didn’t change his supporters minds about him in Swire’s study. After presenting participants with the various statements, the researchers debriefed the volunteers on which of these statements were true and which were false. Even when Trump supporters accepted that some of Trump’s statements were untrue (recognizing that a vaccine doesn’t cause autism, for instance) they did not change their voting preference.

 

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Fez said:

 

I'm not sure he's wrong either. There's a report today that Trump offered Kasich the VP slot back in May, before he dropped out, saying that he'd been in charge of domestic AND foreign policy. Trump has no interest in governing and I think will sign whatever gets put in front of him.

 

If Kasich were truly after getting Trump dropped, wouldn't using information like this, at any point from then until last night, have been valuable to use against him? 

[maarsen]

31 minutes ago, mormont said:

Seems timely

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/theres-probably-nothing-that-will-change-clinton-or-trump-supporters-minds/

 

We had a similar situation up here in the frozen North last year.  Do we vote for an untried with a name that inspires both rage and acclaim or a guy that has shown multiple instances of poor judgment while in power.  Going into the election the polls were for the incumbent but in the end a record number of youth votes kicked  the incompetent boob out of office.

[butterbumps!]

39 minutes ago, mormont said:

Seems timely

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/theres-probably-nothing-that-will-change-clinton-or-trump-supporters-minds/

 

In other words the American mentality is basically a Stannis-Dany thread circa 2012-3.  Except with consequences.   And with one candidate who is objectively unequivocally utterly devoid of virtue.

I just really don't understand how anyone can honestly see Trump as anything but comically, uniformly unfit, or as remotely preferable to anyone barring the most petulant toddlers who also happen to suffer from intense auto-erotic narcissism (saying nothing of the relentless assault on truth and human decency for a moment- you'd think his pissant persona would be a turn off no matter what the content).   None of the justifications I see make any sense at all that I can tell.