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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

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4 hours ago, LokisRaider said:

So Cersei and Euron apparently know every strategy that Dany and Tyrion are going to employ while Dany and Tyrion have no idea what the enemy is doing for... reasons? I guess? I guess that goes back to the theme of this season where everyone knows everything unless it is easier for the plot that they don't know something big.

And taking Ellaria prisoner defeats the Dorne army? If you are going to use the hostage reason at least have Tyrion say something like "With Ellaria taken prisoner the Dornish army is holding in reserve to try and get her back", something anything to explain why the Dornish are no longer going to be an ally. And how did the Tyrell army fall so easily? They are considered one of the freshest armies (as there is no storming of Dragonstone in the show) and the lannisters are one of the most depleted. It just doesn't make any sense. And I'm curious as to who is defending Kings Landing right now? The Lannister army is at Highgarden and Euron is at the Rock.

Don't you know? According to show logic, Dorne is not a kingdom but just one house/castle in a nether region somewhere down south. I think it's called the Land of Always Summer, but I'm not sure on that part. In this area, there is only one house - the Martells. There are no other lords or armies. Only a few common folk who served at the pleasure of the Sand Snakes after they murdered the former leader - much like a new male lion taking over a pride. Since the remaining few people in that area are common-folk, there is no fear for any retribution.

In case my point wasn't made, Tyrion solidified it by knocking over the little sun and spear chess piece showing the House of Dorne was completely destroyed.

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This was a really disappointing episode. It feels to me (for the first time really, because I haven't had these problems before) that without Martin's writing, D&D are writing scenes in one episode that have absolutely no follow through in later episodes, or that they end up rushing through. 

For example, why bother introducing the plan to take Casterly Rock only to show the entire thing in a montage two episodes later that lasts only about three minutes. Why bother having Olenna and the Sand Snakes talk of justice at the end of last season only to have them eliminated so early without having done anything. Why bother having Olenna say that she "survived because she didn't listen to anyone" and then she dies because she listened to Tyrion. 

I was not impressed with this episode and how it rushed through so many scenes, it felt like we were back in season 1 where they didn't have the budget, and that's probably because they're saving the budget for scenes with the White Walkers, but that is not what I want. I want a well-rounded season, not one that rushes through storylines just to get us to the battleporn episodes. 

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5 hours ago, Saturno said:

4) last season it was said that Yara stole the majority of the Iron Fleet, but apparently Euron built another fleet even bigger without any problem. in fact his new fleet is so powerful he can divide it in two and attack both Yara AND the Unsullied despite being a continent away from each other.

It's the same fleet.  They focus on Euron's flagship in the front.  So Euron ambushed Yara, took them back to King's Landing, and then went all the way back around Westeros and caught up to Grey Worm.

Yara and Grey Worm had to both leave around the same time but for some reason decided to sail separately.  They missed spotting Euron's 1000 ship fleet sailing through Blackwater Bay twice.  We don't really know who left first but the show seems to suggest that Yara did, however Grey Worm's fleet and Euron's would then have had to sail right past each other when Euron comes back to KL.  So Euron has sailed past Dragonstone four times now and not been spotted by the only army in existence with aerial scouts.  He's sailed past Dorne at least twice with no ravens alerting Dragonstone of a Greyjoy fleet.  So either he's sailing a much longer route around Westeros with ships twice as fast, or someone is writing like they don't care at all about location and distance. Or how sailing ships actually move.

They could salvage the mysteriousness of Euron by having someone start talking about how he moves so fast and seems to be in multiple places at once and give him a cloud of dark magic, but instead they are just going with just spectacle.

 

Why is the Vale army still at Winterfell? And why is Bronze Yohn advising Sansa instead of literally any other North Lord.

 

No one wants to talk about Jon's Resurrection.  Tyrion doesn't ask how he still has a head after abandoning the Night's Watch.  Or where his Direwolf is.  Because if you want to convince people that strange things are happening, having a strange and legendary beast at your side is at least a small bit of evidence.

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12 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

Why is the Vale army still at Winterfell? And why is Bronze Yohn advising Sansa instead of literally any other North Lord.

I've heard it suggested (I think of History of Westeros podcast) that the reason Bronze Yohn keeps popping up is for a meta reason, to remind the viewers of Bronze Yohn in the event that LF is killed or somehow stripped of his control of the Vale and then the Vale will be led by a character that the viewers know. I think this is the best plausible reason I have heard so far. 

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12 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

Why is the Vale army still at Winterfell? And why is Bronze Yohn advising Sansa instead of literally any other North Lord.

I've heard it suggested (I think of History of Westeros podcast) that the reason Bronze Yohn keeps popping up is for a meta reason, to remind the viewers of Bronze Yohn in the event that LF is killed or somehow stripped of his control of the Vale and then the Vale will be led by a character that the viewers know. I think this is the best plausible reason I have heard so far. 

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So, the season 6 ended with Dorne and Highgarden vowing revenge, and... pffft. Nothing. It's not that they lost is bad, it's that they didn't get a single shot in. There are few things as annoying as a major buildup leading to irrelevancy. If TPTB wanted to give Cersei an easy instantaneous win, WTF did Olenna even leave King's Landing, what was the point of her surviving the wildfire treason and plot? So that she could whisper "Wevenge!", and slip on a banana peel a couple minutes later? Sheesh.

And yeah, the exposition of the balance of power is all over the place. We somehow got from "Cersei is finished, surrounded, in hopeless situation, doomed etc." to "the Lannister army can crush Highgarden with contemptuous ease". Sorry, you don't get to do that without some epic "Surprise, motherfuckers! Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station!". And we got nothing of that sort.

Sigh. A letdown.

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First time posting here, although I have lurked here after episodes of the last two seasons.  I appreciate these threads as I am very upset with the way the show has diverged from the books, and subsequently seen its quality diminish significantly.   Seasons 1-4 weren't perfect but they were nonetheless brilliant IMO, and I loved them immensely.  Starting in season 5 with the complete ruination of the Dorne and Stannis storylines, things got really messy, to say the least.

 

This episode was often infuriating for me.  It was still enjoyable at times because it is still based on a phenomenal story after all.  However, I do not like the direction this show continues to go in.

 

 

Complaints about E03:

 

*I cannot possibly imagine anyone less likable than Daenerys.  The fact that they are going to make Jon become her love slave is disgusting and IMO is just destroying his character.  She is insufferable, spoiled, entitled brat (who at times e shows signs of becoming a villain) and I cannot see why he would fall for her; it doesn't fit his character at all.  Despite her imprisoning Jon and Davos after they came to her for help (simply because they didn't kiss her ass enough) and other instances of her having a disturbing goddess complex,I feel that the show expects us to cheer for Dany, and I find that quite impossible; she is probably my most hated living character on the show at this point.  Hearing her brag about how she was the first person in ages to hatch dragons or marshall the Dothraki across the sea was cringe-inducing.  Emilia Clarke's horrific acting doesn't do Dany any favors on the show either.

*I am very biased because I have an absolutely MASSIVE crush on Carice Van Houten, but I feel that this show has severely underutilized her and her character Melisandre the past two seasons.  First of all, she had limited interactions with Jon after resurrecting him which made absolutely no sense.  They should have established some sort of relationship after that, whether positive, neutral or negative.  Season 5 had her try and seduce him, which fails mostly due to him being in mourning for Ygritte.  I was interested in their dynamic as I think that Melisandre may have been planning to replace Stannis with Jon, but would have been thwarted in her efforts to control Jon, who I am sure would have turned on her once he was made aware of her insanity and propensity for human sacrifice.  Furthermore, we have yet to receive an  explanation on the source of her longevity.  S4 showed she doesn't need her necklace to remain young and beautiful so what's the secret? So many more questions about her age and who she really is that have just been hand waved by the show! Additionally, the show has long nerfed Melisandre.   Besides being able to birth shadow demons after being impregnated, her only other powers are....psuedo-immortality? I guess she drank poison that one time too.  But in the books, she could actually set things on fire.  The idea of Melisandre being afraid of Davos is laughable to me.  Another complaint here; Melisandre is the reason Davos is alive, as she saved him from Stannis in S4, which he conveniently ignores (she should have brought that up when he confronted her IMO).  It infuriates me how Stannis is forgiven for his crimes but Melisandre is demonized despite clearly not being a mentally well individual.  I am not saying she is a good person, because she definitely isn't, but she is so dangerously delusional that she has always been acting in ways that she believed were for the greater good (and they weren't obviously).  I am confused about her interaction with Varys...seems like they are just trying to find a way to get rid of her.  "Returning to Westeros to Die"? what? Very sad to see Carice go as she is IMO the best actress in the show and an incredibly beautiful woman as well.  Mel to me is also perhaps the most interesting character, given she's one of the few magically inclined characters we know well (although I'd like to see her backstory explained more).

 

*Why the actual fuck is Jaime still drooling over Cersei? That is beyond nauseating.  Ignoring the character development Jaime goes through is an affront to the way GRRM wrote him.  What made Jaime so interesting is that he's not as monstrous as we originally thought, and that he separates himself from Cersei, who has a poisonous influence on everyone around her.  I really thought that the end of season 6 was signifying that Jaime had finally had enough with her and was going to finally begin acting like book Jaime, but apparently not.  It's a shame because book Jaime is a terrific character and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is a very talented actor who is being wasted.

 

*The cure for greyscale is apparently able to be mastered by a novice.  So why is it banned?

 

*Why is Littlefinger still around? What is the show doing with him? Is he supposed to be the comic relief now? Jesus Christ.  I don't know what the point of Jon warning him about making moves on Sansa was if he was just going to immediately leave her alone with Fingah afterwards.

 

*Cersei asking Ellaria "why did you do that"? made me cringe.  Was that just me or was that a particularly bad piece of dialogue?  As much as I detest Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in the Show (especially because the show has ignored GRRM's characterization of them!) no one deserves to be tortured and it was impossible not to have pity for them in that scene.  In character for Cersei, I admit, as she is quite sadistic and admittedly has a justifiable reason to be enraged at the Dornish women.

 

*I admit that I got emotional when Bran and Sansa reunited.  However, that was quickly ruined by Bran being a creepy little shit.  

 

*Where is Ghost? Are we supposed to just pretend he doesn't exist? Wolves are my favorite animal and Ghost is my favorite Direwolf, so I am hoping he will eventually return.  His absence is still inexplicable and I am sure will not even be addressed when he finally does magically appear when it is deemed convenient by the show.

 

 

That's all I have for now.  Since I'm new to this board, I must ask is there always this much trouble with the site? I frequently have been unable to load pages here and often encounter "Gateway error" or some form of this when trying to access a particular page.  

 

 

 

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First time posting here, although I have lurked here after episodes of the last two seasons.  I appreciate these threads as I am very upset with the way the show has diverged from the books, and subsequently seen its quality diminish significantly.   Seasons 1-4 weren't perfect but they were nonetheless brilliant IMO, and I loved them immensely.  Starting in season 5 with the complete ruination of the Dorne and Stannis storylines, things got really messy, to say the least.

 

This episode was often infuriating for me.  It was still enjoyable at times because it is still based on a phenomenal story after all.  However, I do not like the direction this show continues to go in.

 

 

Complaints about E03:

 

*I cannot possibly imagine anyone less likable than Daenerys.  The fact that they are going to make Jon become her love slave is disgusting and IMO is just destroying his character.  She is insufferable, spoiled, entitled brat (who at times e shows signs of becoming a villain) and I cannot see why he would fall for her; it doesn't fit his character at all.  Despite her imprisoning Jon and Davos after they came to her for help (simply because they didn't kiss her ass enough) and other instances of her having a disturbing goddess complex,I feel that the show expects us to cheer for Dany, and I find that quite impossible; she is probably my most hated living character on the show at this point.  Hearing her brag about how she was the first person in ages to hatch dragons or marshall the Dothraki across the sea was cringe-inducing.  Emilia Clarke's horrific acting doesn't do Dany any favors on the show either.

*I am very biased because I have an absolutely MASSIVE crush on Carice Van Houten, but I feel that this show has severely underutilized her and her character Melisandre the past two seasons.  First of all, she had limited interactions with Jon after resurrecting him which made absolutely no sense.  They should have established some sort of relationship after that, whether positive, neutral or negative.  Season 5 had her try and seduce him, which fails mostly due to him being in mourning for Ygritte.  I was interested in their dynamic as I think that Melisandre may have been planning to replace Stannis with Jon, but would have been thwarted in her efforts to control Jon, who I am sure would have turned on her once he was made aware of her insanity and propensity for human sacrifice.  Furthermore, we have yet to receive an  explanation on the source of her longevity.  S4 showed she doesn't need her necklace to remain young and beautiful so what's the secret? So many more questions about her age and who she really is that have just been hand waved by the show! Additionally, the show has long nerfed Melisandre.   Besides being able to birth shadow demons after being impregnated, her only other powers are....psuedo-immortality? I guess she drank poison that one time too.  But in the books, she could actually set things on fire.  The idea of Melisandre being afraid of Davos is laughable to me.  Another complaint here; Melisandre is the reason Davos is alive, as she saved him from Stannis in S4, which he conveniently ignores (she should have brought that up when he confronted her IMO).  It infuriates me how Stannis is forgiven for his crimes but Melisandre is demonized despite clearly not being a mentally well individual.  I am not saying she is a good person, because she definitely isn't, but she is so dangerously delusional that she has always been acting in ways that she believed were for the greater good (and they weren't obviously).  I am confused about her interaction with Varys...seems like they are just trying to find a way to get rid of her.  "Returning to Westeros to Die"? what? Very sad to see Carice go as she is IMO the best actress in the show and an incredibly beautiful woman as well.  Mel to me is also perhaps the most interesting character, given she's one of the few magically inclined characters we know well (although I'd like to see her backstory explained more).

 

*Why the actual fuck is Jaime still drooling over Cersei? That is beyond nauseating.  Ignoring the character development Jaime goes through is an affront to the way GRRM wrote him.  What made Jaime so interesting is that he's not as monstrous as we originally thought, and that he separates himself from Cersei, who has a poisonous influence on everyone around her.  I really thought that the end of season 6 was signifying that Jaime had finally had enough with her and was going to finally begin acting like book Jaime, but apparently not.  It's a shame because book Jaime is a terrific character and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is a very talented actor who is being wasted.

 

*The cure for greyscale is apparently able to be mastered by a novice.  So why is it banned?

 

*Why is Littlefinger still around? What is the show doing with him? Is he supposed to be the comic relief now? Jesus Christ.  I don't know what the point of Jon warning him about making moves on Sansa was if he was just going to immediately leave her alone with Fingah afterwards.

 

*Cersei asking Ellaria "why did you do that"? made me cringe.  Was that just me or was that a particularly bad piece of dialogue?  As much as I detest Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in the Show (especially because the show has ignored GRRM's characterization of them!) no one deserves to be tortured and it was impossible not to have pity for them in that scene.  In character for Cersei, I admit, as she is quite sadistic and admittedly has a justifiable reason to be enraged at the Dornish women.

 

*I admit that I got emotional when Bran and Sansa reunited.  However, that was quickly ruined by Bran being a creepy little shit.  

 

*Where is Ghost? Are we supposed to just pretend he doesn't exist? Wolves are my favorite animal and Ghost is my favorite Direwolf, so I am hoping he will eventually return.  His absence is still inexplicable and I am sure will not even be addressed when he finally does magically appear when it is deemed convenient by the show.

 

 

That's all I have for now.  Since I'm new to this board, I must ask is there always this much trouble with the site? I frequently have been unable to load pages here and often encounter "Gateway error" or some form of this when trying to access a particular page.  

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, I think Jon should have probably asked for a copy of the contract. For some reason, I just don't think Torrhen agreed to: House Stark will serve House Targaryen forever, no matter what House Targaryen does.

Actually, I'll bet he did. If you look at typical historical oaths—not just in Europe, but almost anywhere with a feudal-like system—the vassal always promises unconditional fealty. Of course Westeros isn't feudal Europe, but there's no reason to believe that would be any different.

On the other hand, House Targaryen almost certainly made the same kind of promise that Kings generally make to defend their vassals physically and spiritually. So, Jon's argument isn't that he didn't break Torrhen's contract, but that the Mad King broke it first. Which is generally a valid argument.

Still, the obvious thing for Jon to do (especially given that the Dance novella implies that Westeros's precedents are nearly identical to Norman England's) is to just say that he can't pledge fealty to the Crown while the throne is occupied by a wrongful claimant (Cersei). That lets him and Dany tactfully put off the question until their common enemies are defeated.

Meanwhile, why hasn't Tyrion or Varys suggested that Dany declare herself Empress or Overqueen or some equivalent, so that people can call themselves King but swear fealty to her? Or offer a Dornish compromise: the Starks are a royal house, as long as they agree that they stay Princes rather than becoming Kings when acceding to Winterfell? I suppose out-of-universe that would just be a distraction when everyone discovers that Jon is a Targaryen and they get married and unite the claims, but in-universe it's baffling that nobody's even thinking in those terms.

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35 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Actually, I'll bet he did. If you look at typical historical oaths—not just in Europe, but almost anywhere with a feudal-like system—the vassal always promises unconditional fealty. Of course Westeros isn't feudal Europe, but there's no reason to believe that would be any different.

Actually, that's not what I understand from medieval legal theory. A vassal could disavow his ties to a lord and the lord's house if the lord broke his part of the bargain. Sure, it probably most often ended up in armed conflict. But the theory was there under medieval law, I do believe.

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Jamie has been utterly destroyed as a character.  He has no coherence, no 'code'. and has become unreliable.  Sleep with your sister - Check.  Be courteous when poisoning an elder - Check.  Look all kinds of warrior-like on horseback when fighting for Cersei.  Check. Get one-upped by Euron's crude sex comments - check.  Jamie was a confused and unethical character until he met Brienne.  Slowly we saw seeds of change.  Well -- all gone.  And if anyone is a Brienne fan, why would you want her to end up with such a broken person as Jamie Lannister?  

 

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7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Show writers decided to take another piss on book lore by having the Iron Bank of Braavos being investors in slave trade. Yup, an institution founded by the descendants of escaped slaves, operated in a city that constantly fights against the slave trade, deals in the slave trade.

What bank do you know of that puts the institutions or traditions of the city it exists in above profit and return on investment? The IB is a global bank, they invest in Westeros, an entire other continent, so I don't think they'd have any problems investing in the primary commercial activity in Slavers Bay.

I've nothing against picking on the logic of the show at this point, as it's vastly lacking - but the IB issue that everyone is raising doesn't seem to take into account the unscrupulous way that all banks, down through history, operate.

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The whole 'Dany-Jon-conflict' is about as vapid as the entire political this season. Jon wants Daenerys' help in the fight against the Others. He wants her help, not the other way around. So he has to meet her demands. That's how things go. In a realistic setting (no idea if it is going to play out in the books in the same way) Jon would either not ask Daenerys for help if he was a king at that point or he would be prepared to give up that crown. He would not go to Dragonstone and ask the foreign queen (and that would she be from his POV if he is the King in the North) for help to deal with his problem.

And if he cared about the welfare of all humanity he would not insist on stupid titles and independence, etc. How could he maintain that in any case if Dany's armies would come north to help him defend the Wall?

The whole scenario is about as ridiculous as Wales declaring independence and the Welsh then asking England for help because the Irish are invading Wales while insisting that they are allowed to remain independence. What stupid head of state would go along with that kind of crap?

At least they are taking their time with the romance thing. This is the first episode in ages where they sort of tell a continuous story in a couple of scenes.

As to the bitching about the claims:

They get their entire thing wrong. Ned and Robert rebelled against Aerys, yes, but that has nothing to do with Robb and Jon being Kings in the North. Ned helped depose a tyrant but he never wanted to break away from the Iron Throne. Robb and now Jon have no justification for that whatsoever. Robb could rebel against Joffrey but he had no reason to also rebel against Stannis or Renly. Bringing down Aerys II and installing Robert Baratheon as king had nothing to do with northern independence.

And it is complete foolishness to not ally with Daenerys while you can also expect Cersei to attack you. Daenerys could be your friend and ally against both Cersei and the Others, but Cersei and the Others most certainly are your enemies.

One can just hope that the book characters will be beyond such ridiculous bitching by the time they reach that point. The fact that it should be Aegon vs. Daenerys should help. Chances are not bad that Jon is going to try to reach out to Aegon should he take KL in the books.

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6 minutes ago, ummester said:

What bank do you know of that puts the institutions or traditions of the city it exists in above profit and return on investment? The IB is a global bank, they invest in Westeros, an entire other continent, so I don't think they'd have any problems investing in the primary commercial activity in Slavers Bay.

I've nothing against picking on the logic of the show at this point, as it's vastly lacking - but the IB issue that everyone is raising doesn't seem to take into account the unscrupulous way that all banks, down through history, operate.

This is precisely why I think they did it in the show - the modern idea that every bank is corrupt and puts profit above all else. But I highly doubt that GRRM will ever put the Iron Bank in this light in the books. Sure, maybe some individuals who are greedy enough, and forgetful enough of their history would stoop to such practices, but I don't believe the institution ever will. So I'm pissed off that once again, the show did away with book lore, to once again insert some modernism in the show.

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I didn't actually think this episode was too bad, if I discount the atrocious dialogue between Dany and Jon.

And, okay, I have to say that Emilia now wins 'worst actor on GOT'...she is really awful.

Highgarden was a disappointment.

Sansa giving directions on armor, just silly.

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Oh, and Casterly Rock was a joke. A real joke. Just as was the fact that Tyrion explains Daenerys the strategy of her own army days or weeks after said army was deployed. What kind of fucked-up command structure do they have?

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37 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

"There are no nipples on these breast plates! Put Nipples on these breast plates! NOW Nipples on Breast Plates! NOW!"

Ghost chewed them off because he thought they were bacon bits, and that is why there is no more Ghost on the show. 

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I only saw the clip where Jon walks into Danys throne room... and... oh my. 

Isnt Davos supposed to be magic with his words, and that is why the show teleports him all over the damn place with whoever current king? And then he can't introduce Jon properly???? 

That whole scene was as exciting as dry toast. If this show wins anything for writing, you know that shit is rigged. 

On the other hand, I have been having sleep problems again and now I know what to put on to help me drift to sleep.  

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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