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Can we officially call Rhaegar a jerk now?

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The problem is, whether Elia loved Rhaegar or not, she was a Princess in a feudal society (and from a part of that society that see women as equals). There is no way she would be OK with being cast aside and replaced, not to mention her children being rendered bastards (as an annulment means a marriage was never valid) and the huge insult to her family. Show Rhaegar is a tool and there's no real way around it. Book Rhaegar may not be, but I can't see any way the writers can render this move to be not dickish. Rhaegar is basically saying that his feelings are more important than his children facing the stigma of being bastards or the humiliation his wife will feel or the anger of Houses Baratheon, Stark and Martell.

It's Show Robb Stark all over again, or rather, Robb was Show Rhaegar all over again. What did Maester Aemon say? Love is the death of duty.

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11 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Did you read the series after the show established R+L or just after it was a common internet topic everywhere? 

Elia was a good wife to Rhaegar and according to Barristan, he was very fond of her. It was just an arranged marriage and they didn't love each other with true love.

So the Tysha debate is still on too. Thank god I never ever go to Gen Asoiaf anymore. 

Yeah well, let's not open the Rhaegar vs Jaime debate. I'll always pick Rhaegar anyway. And I don't have a problem with people disliking Rhaegar, I was joking when I said we can call him a jerk if I get to call Sansa stuff too. Yeah, we should all like and dislike whoever we want and not take offense all the time. Took me a while to learn that but now I just take a breath and count to three when people say Drogo is a rapist psychopath and move on. Chillllz. 

I'm just waiting for Sam to forget this vital piece of information Gilly told him like he forgot about Stannis telling him there's dragonglass on dragonstone. And then Little Sam's first sentence can be Prince Reggar was annulled and secrectly married to another in Dorne, Papa! Aww. 

 

Lol oh my gosh the Tysha debate is alive and well and it gets pretty ugly over there.  Lot's of very personal attacks.  You'd think I raped her one hundred times the way people can get on the threads.  It is actually sort of humorous how absurd it all is for anyone who has even a little sense of perspective.

I started watching right before S4 started, binging during an HBO marathon of it.  First time I tried watching an episode was one where they re-introduced Craster back in S2.  I turned it off after the "previously on" segment out of disgust, and then found out he wasn't even the main incest, but when a customer of mine became obsessed with the series I started watching it so I'd have something in common with him to talk about lol.  Went back and read the books for the first time just 6 months ago.  I had been lurking on the forums here right when I started watching though.

I knew you were a Rhaegar fan (or should I say "ragger").  Lol yeah Sam is strangely courageous for a supposed coward, and strangely dumb for a supposed savant.  God bless Gilly.

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33 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Lol oh my gosh the Tysha debate is alive and well and it gets pretty ugly over there.  Lot's of very personal attacks.  You'd think I raped her one hundred times the way people can get on the threads.  It is actually sort of humorous how absurd it all is for anyone who has even a little sense of perspective.

I started watching right before S4 started, binging during an HBO marathon of it.  First time I tried watching an episode was one where they re-introduced Craster back in S2.  I turned it off after the "previously on" segment out of disgust, and then found out he wasn't even the main incest, but when a customer of mine became obsessed with the series I started watching it so I'd have something in common with him to talk about lol.  Went back and read the books for the first time just 6 months ago.  I had been lurking on the forums here right when I started watching though.

I knew you were a Rhaegar fan (or should I say "ragger").  Lol yeah Sam is strangely courageous for a supposed coward, and strangely dumb for a supposed savant.  God bless Gilly.

Oh you don't have to tell me about that, I spent two years defending Drogo and Rhaegar in gen asoiaf I know about getting ugly. :lol: 

you must give first class service to customers. I got on the bandwagon after season 1 was out and a friend told me to watch it. 

Sam is strangely dumb for a supposed savant? What about Tyrion the smartest and most moral man in the universe? :o but yeah, you're right. 

 

20 minutes ago, Kingslayer96 said:

Wasn't lyanna engaged to Robert barratheon? Why is rhaegar the only jerk? They both cheated

:cheers::cheers: 

nooooooo, you know it's because Lyanna was 15, so that's okay, it's Rhaegar's fault because it's not like 15 year old people aren't expected to show responsibility in Westeros where 10-year-olds are given charge of castles. and Rhaegar also arranged the wind to blow from the east that day which gave Lyanna a headache which dulled her judgement. It's Rhaegar's responsibility. Everything is. :lol: 

(this was also not serious - just in case that needs to be pointed out) 

Edited by RhaenysB

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19 minutes ago, Kingslayer96 said:

Wasn't lyanna engaged to Robert barratheon? Why is rhaegar the only jerk? They both cheated

Well, Lyanna and Robert weren't actually married, although she clearly helped ruin Elia's life (I believe 'homewrecker' is the term). Still, she was a teenage girl and not an adult, married Crown Prince who should have known better, so she gets less blame I guess.

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4 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

You are right. Rhaegar is the epitome of a selfish a.h. The back story is what makes this interesting and meaningful. Rhaegar is not meant to be seen as a hero. No one is all good or all evil in GOT, except perhaps Jon (good), and the army of the dead (pure evil).

Rhaegar is shown as being charismatic and admired by some, strong and poetic, handsome and not insane. Martin also shows that he is a spoiled, self important, princely brat who threw everything aside for his own desires and grandiose notions of his prophecised legacy. Rhaegar could have had Elia killed in a fit of selfishness, as many kings have done. It would have been cleaner. Yet Rhaegar had to act impulsively.

Jon is not responsible for the sins of his father. Jon is lovable and fans want him to be legitimate because he suffers as a bastard, yet this is what helps shape him into a decent person.

The future importance of his family existed because of Rhaegar's selfishness, the self-fulfilling prophecy although, one could argue that it was important anyway, because the long night was coming and the white walkers were returning. So the future of Westeros depends on these dragons and these new, young heroes being ready to fight. How are they ready to fight? They suffer and survive. Would Daenerys figured out how to hatch dragon eggs if she had been a princess in Kings Landing? Probably not. She figured it out in pure desperation. Would Jon be the compassionate, yet precise leader that he is if he had been raised a prince and then king in Kings Landing?  Jon knows how to fight the army of the dead because he was raised as a Stark in Winterfell and then as a man of the Nights Watch, places he never would have been if he had been raised in Kings Landing.

One of the things I notice about Game of Thrones is how well George R.R. Martin follows the long tested and used module (sorry I forget what it is called) where the king is born on a hill, raised by foster parents, a bunch of other things and then rises up to discover true identity and becomes a rightful king to restore order and sometimes even defeat evil. This module is present in literature and folklore throughout human history. It is a complicated formula that works for a stories popularity.

Ultimately the success of the heroes depends on the mess created by their parents before them.

I agree most of the characters are grey in the books.. Even Jon makes decisions that are not really "good".. He has good intentions but..sometimes there are bad results too... One example is taking Gilly's baby and exchange it with Val's.. He did this to keep Val's child alive.. But taking a child from his mother..not an easy decision.. Also even though Sam liked the idea of a maester, in the books he didn't want to go to the Citadel.. He killed the boy, so the man could be born..

Dany is merciful with the weak, but she is just. What makes her a grey character is the way she thinks of justice.. Many criticized her for crossify the masters.. In my eyes that was justice.. Innocent might died.. But what about the children?

If Jon grew up in Kings Landing he wouldn't be the one he is now.. He had to learn about thee white walkers, we had to fight them, he had to learn how to kill them.. He is the one who brought the Wildlings south of the Wall...saved the lives of thousands.. He is the one who made the Mother of Dragons see who the true enemy is..

If Daenerys grew up in Kings Landing she would probably look like more like Sansa. She would never know how is like to starve, to have no home, to be sold.. She wouldn't marry Drogo and take dragon eggs as a wedding gift. She would never wake dragons out of stone.. Without dragons there would be no hope for the Long Night.. She would never free the slaves and change the life of thousands.

Even Bran.. If he didn't fall from that tower might never became the three eyed Raven.. Well that's not exactly accurate because there is no way that Bran would become a cripple. He had to become a cripple so he would have Hodor to carry him so Hodor could become Hodor.

If Jon and Dany grew up together in Kings Landing there would be no one to fight for the Dawn..

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I have to remind myself that not everyone here read the books and other accompanying literature, arguing with folks who have only watched the show is surface level.

Hopefully the details will be presented (either through the show or in the forthcoming books) and we can have a more enlightened discussion about the roots of Robert's Rebellion.  I'm going to quit banging my head against the wall in this thread!

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1 hour ago, DaSh!t said:

Doesn't a high septum or King the only ones allowed to Annul a marriage to royalty? Gilly read about a maester giving an annulment, not a high septum. Im gonna spitball here and say WHAT IF..

 

The High Septon was the one that annulled the marriage, High Septon Maynard, I initially thought it was a maester as well but it was not.  Gilly was reading from the journals of the High Septon at the time.  

22 minutes ago, Kingslayer96 said:

Wasn't lyanna engaged to Robert barratheon? Why is rhaegar the only jerk? They both cheated

They are both play a part and both are in the wrong from what we know of the situation but like others have said.  Lyanna was 15 at the time.  Also she never loved or wanted to be with Robert a point she made painfully obvious to Ned, it was a match made by her father.  She knew Robert would never be faithful to her.  She also knew that at that time Robert already had a kid.  If she had not fallen for Rhaegar she most likely would have taken off before she married him.

For those who keep bringing up Rhaegar leaving Elia and the kids in the Red Keep, I thought about it and I dont think he had any choice in the matter.  Aerys was the one that wanted them kept in the Red Keep he was using them as leverage against not only Dorne but Rheagar and I am sure he would have preferred them on Dragonstone or in Dorne but Aerys word was law in that case as he was the only person would could over rule an order from Rhaegar. 

I also think that some others are being a bit harsh because of what ended up happening to them, think of from Rhaegar's point of view, yes he knew he was going out to meet Robert and have this final confrontation, but he always assumed he was coming back after the Battle of the Trident he did not think he was going to die.  When he left Jamie he said that 

"When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return"

So from this quote its not like he thought they were in any danger as he thought he was going to win.  

 

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The only problem is the bastardization of his kids via annulment. Which again, if you believe Rheagar was a prophecy freak, then he's weighing this vs a prophetic savior who will save the world from darkness, then that slight is 100% justified. Elia's kids would still be royalty in Dorne, they just wouldn't be heir's to the Iron Throne.

My biggest thing is that regardless of what side you fell on either 

1. Rheagar kidnapped and takes Lyanna and forced her to have his child.

2. Rheagar and Lyanna fell madly in love and let the kingdom burn so they could play house. 

Either way, they let a lot of people suffer and die

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6 hours ago, storm.131 said:

Also, remember the context:  this work is based on medieval Europe when sense of duty for everyone but especially princes, came before everything, including love and romance.

Eh, only in theory. There were quite a couple of scandals, with secret marriages or lovers/mistresses which were not supposed to be, either. 

5 hours ago, Gala said:

I had an impression that Elia loved Rhaegar very much, though, he didn't love her back - was a political marriage, for duty.
Somehow I do not think Elia was that kind of woman. I think she was good, complete opposite of Oberyn...very gentle, feeble and kind, not fit to be royalty in the sense of image, but a good and dutyful wife. I doubt that she had a paramour.

I don't think she cheated on Rhaegar, either, but I can well imagine the two of them arriving at an agreement about their love lives, especially if it meant for Elia to be able to follow her own love interest.

Plus, it shouldn't be forgotten that we already have an example of a royal wife willing to put up with her husband shagging someone else for the greater good.

2 hours ago, Gala said:

Talking about experiences... I have my own and being a woman I do sympathize Elia, but rather that she was married without love...because being in a marriage with the man who does not love you - is a torture for both - and that comes from my own experience. Spending years like that and knowing what I know now...I'd rather live alone than be in that situation again, fortunately, I have dealt with all that shit and started a new life.

Yep. When the love is gone, it's gone, and it's human nature to fall for someone. All that matters is the way the breakup is handled - which is why I reserve my judgement till I hear the whole story.

2 hours ago, Gala said:

 Anyway it doesn't excuse Rhaegar leaving Elia with kids in KL and not bothering that the was has started because of what he did. And the secrecy, too.

But according to the World Book, Elia was originally on DS. We don't know how or why she ended up in KL (though I suppose that we can assume that Aerys made her come). Nor do we know if Rhaegar bothered or not, or why and how long the secrecy went.

 

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8 hours ago, Newstar said:

I love how fans have been saying that Dany should supposedly STFU about being the rightful queen because Robert took the throne by force and that she's arrogant and entitled for thinking otherwise, but the moment it's revealed that Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son, he's suddenly the rightful king. If Dany's claim doesn't entitle her to be queen of Westeros because Robert took the throne and kicked out the Targs, then neither does Jon's.

However you look at it as the last Targ she has a claim to the throne, if her claim is void by the fact that Robert deposed her father by force, all she has to do is depose who ever sits the throne and claim back her family seat; giving her right of conquest and birth right.

As for as the show having Jon be the rightful Targ heir just adds to the drama/tension 

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Well thousands of people died so he could bring Jon to life... And if Melisandre wasn't in Castle Black.. All these thousands would die for nothing...of course if this didn't happen Daenerys wouldn't be exiled and dragons would never be born..

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5 hours ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

The whole thing about "I'm gonna ditch my brown wife to have a 'purer' baby with a white girl" really rubs me the wrong way. 

Rhaegar triggered you :D GRRM is a massive literary troll, though, so it makes sense.

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6 hours ago, Gala said:

It seems that Ned wasn't against the line, more against Aerys, I think. He was appaulled by Elia and her kids deaths. He called it murder and blamed Lannisters for that till the day he died. If it was Ned, who was first to get to KL and not Tywin, probably, Elia and her children would still be alive or burnt alive by Aerys along with the whole city. He didn't even want to harm Cersei's children, knowing they are abomination.
Jon is his nephew, after all, the only son of his beloved sister. I don't get it - where do you see hypocrisy?

He's a hypocrite for waging war and a big pussy for keeping Jon's parentage a secret.

So he's brave enough to march to war with Robert, hes honest enough to tell Robert he's a fat arse but he's too chicken shit to tell Robert and his wife that Jon is the Targ heir. Is Ned a man of principles or not? He seems to bee honourable when he can and honest only when it suits him - they are not pick and chose principles, you either live by them or not.

Edited by ummester

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Rhaegar already rode straight past his pregnant wife to name someone else Queen of Love and Beauty in front of hundreds of nobles, got Lyanna to break her engagement, then did nothing for a close to a year while her family died and war erupted over his decisions.

We passed the point where we can call Rhaegar a jerk a long time ago.

Edited by Denam_Pavel

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In response to a question about whether Arthur Dayne was indeed the perfect knight everyone seems to think he was, Martin has said that we will learn more about Arthur in due course. Since we know no one is as perfect as they are made out to be in this series, I expect some juicy "grey character" information.

Tie this to Arriane's demonstrated promiscuity and attraction to Gerold Dayne, and I believe there is a foundation being built for Elia and Arthur Dayne to have been lovers. So how about both Elia's children being fathered by Arthur Dayne? The Dayne's have Targaryen looks, so the kids would look like Targs.

And the ultimate moral conflict of the type that George just loves, would be Arthur Dayne eventually choosing to defend Rhaegar's son to the death at the Tower of Joy, while knowing that his own children were under threat in the Red Keep, a thousand miles away.

One way or another, there is a lot more to the Rhaegar-Elia story than we have been told thus far.

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17 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

He also took his first son's name Aegon and gave it to his new child with Lyanna since Aegon is a name for future king, not a bastard Waters boy.  As if the first little Aegon has never existed. Baby Aegon, first son of Rhaegar, a one year old boy, will be soon forgotten by everyone, because the only Aegon Targaryen who mattered and beloved is Jon Snow. The first Aegon is just a smashed bloody mess whom nobody cared. 

In the interest of fairness, Jon could've been named Egg to honor the dead son. Parents used to do that, back when babies died more often. Alexander Hamilton, I think, had two sons named Philip for this reason. 

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9 hours ago, johndance said:

He truly believed his kid with Lyanna was tptwp and wanted him/her to be a legitimate Targaryen. Doesn't change the fact that he ran out on his wife and kids, but at least there was a bigger picture reasoning for it. 

For the record, we know his son is special because he has risen from the dead. And we don't yet, but he'll probably also play a giant role in defeating the Night King. So Rhaegar will end up being correct about Jon being the promised prince. 

Although, I imagine they'll pull a fast one and have it be the Prince and Princess Who Were Promised, to include Dany. Or perhaps the Aunt and Nephew Who Were Promised. 

Maybe they'll also try to pass it off as: "Don't trust prophecy; trust what's in your heart!" Except the same person who they present as excelling on his own merits also just so happens to be Secret King. Which sorts steps on the message. 

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