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Dark: Netflix's Time-Bending German Mystery Series {Spoilers from page 5}

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I thought it stuck the landing as well. Some of the late developments were quite well foreshadowed, particularly

Spoiler

that there would be a 3rd world. Also that something was different with Tannhaus in the timeline that showed him building the machine in the original world - it doesn't make sense that he'd be using such a dramatically different design when he'd already been handed one that he knows will work. Also the book that he had never written.

Speaking of his design - since he didn't have the God particle I guess he was using a different approach, I was wondering if he was doing something with anti matter with all the things sticking out being magnetic bottles?

I think the scene with Peter getting killed was the most a scene has disturbed me since Sacking Private Ryan. Something about the knife slowly sinking in really gets me, too much time for anticipation and pain.

My take from back in season 2 was that this time loop was too dysfunctional, looping back on itself too much, to actually be part of the real world timeline, that it must be a reality marble of some kind, but that it may have broken the main timeline so I was pretty satisfied with that turning out to be the case. I also appreciated that it didn't shy away from the obvious consequence to our main characters of writing themselves out of existence when they can only exist due to the time loops.

 

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OK I can’t figure out if quoting within a spoiler is a thing... @Heartofice

But the biggest flaw of the whole show for me was Adam and Eva. Those two characters never really felt like real people, especially Eva who I don't think was ever truly explained. Jonas and Marthas romance.. just felt corny to me at times, not the way it was written or acted, but as the central concept pinning the show together, it felt pretty weak.. blah blah blah, love conquers all... I was hoping for more than that.

Totally. When Adam shot Martha, we all assumed he must have one hell of a plan if it led him to this moment. There really needed to be a beautiful, Shakespearian resonance to why these two characters perpetuate the loop in the way that they do. I would have preferred that they simply love one another and want the other universe to be the one that survives, and they keep cancelling one another out. But the answer apparently is that Adam has no idea about the loophole that Eva exploits to create a second Martha (despite knowing about the second Jonas who impregnated Martha...? What?) and thus thinks killing his own child will solve things. Why on earth does he think the standard rule of determinism doesn’t apply here? And to add insult to injury, his method has the weakest, most Doctor Who style logic to it: “it’s created of two worlds so we need the energy of both worlds to kill it”. What? Why? Can’t you just abort it? And if the answer is no for the usual reasons it’s no, why doesn’t that logic apply to strapping her into the chair?

Their whole relationship is that they banged once as kids, and have spent the rest of their lives finding reasons to shoot one another.


The show became about a series of very convoluted events all orchestrated by a small set of people, to make sure that everything stayed the same. I'm still confused as to why this would be necessary as it seems that time appears to make sure everything stays the same anyway and it's impossible to mess things about, except for the loophole during the time stop. This season became almost incomprehensible due to the back and forth, each character forcing the events elsewhere, and it wasn't all that compelling. 

Yea, we needed a very convincing reason why the apocalypse had to happen in both worlds. Adam has a reason that turned out to bullshit, Eva ... wanted to keep the loop? So that meant the apocalypse as well? And Claudia has no reason at all, other than that she told us she did.

Then there are the origin triplets, who don't really seem to have any sort of role at all, they were just there to make stuff happen and for Martha to be protective. Very odd story element there. 


That was a weird bit of story telling wasn’t it? Everything up to and including the trailer for this season pointed to the huge importance of this. And it turns out to be? An emotionless minion. His entire function, to have two Trontes with two Agneses, got completely ignored. Was the Agnes actress not available much or something? The only scene that touched on it was him handing Tronte the bracelet, if there was a point to that then I missed it. He gives it to Jana but that’s about it.

 

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Quoting does work it seems @DaveSumm

Spoiler

One of the problems I have with the show is that it's hard to see characters 'workings out', like how did they come to the conclusions they came to which drives their behaviour? In many cases it's simply a matter of 'oh well Claudia told him that so now he believes it'. This isn't especially compelling as a framing device, especially when it seemed to descend into a 'he said / she said' game of back and forth lies. 

But it also means that I just never really got a strong sense of the emotional underpinnings of main characters motivations. Adam REALLY wants to destroy both worlds and Eva REALLY wants to keep them, but I never understood why they were both so committed to those points of view. 

How did Adam come to the conclusion that he can destroy the knot by killing Marthas baby? How did he validate those assumptions?

As you mentioned, if Adam wanted to keep both worlds because of his love for Martha then that would feel more grounded. 

I'm disappointed the entire show ended up being about Martha and Jonas' relationship, because it wasn't a very interesting one. I respect the show for clearly having a plan, their relationship was shown to be key from the first scenes, but it didn't manage to do much to flesh that out. Maybe if there were more scenes of these two characters interacting through time, but that didn't happen. Instead they operated through proxies and rarely met each other. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I wanted to like this so badly. And there’s so much to appreciate and respect and like. Several elements. Just not the whole. I’m not saying I disliked the final season, it was... okay. Overall it felt like Harry Potter. The last installment wasn’t great, wasn’t bad, it was okay. And mostly, contrived, over complicated and retconned. Throughout the entire season, the thought that it suffers from the deathly hallows syndrome just couldn’t leave me. See Harry Potter was perfect and whole until the deathly hallows were introduced to create the ultimate duality between Harry and Voldemort, to lose the audience in freshly introduced details that add nothing to the larger story or the existing characters and to add another blob of whipped cream on top of the cherry that’s already on the sundae and suffocating it. 
Right, so enough about Harry Potter. 

All the great things 

Spoiler

Episode 7 in itself served the purpose of the entire season. It was absolutely beautiful, powerful, incredibly acted and it delivered in every aspect one could possibly expect it. For quite a while I was worried that Dark would gloss over the human transformation and miss to explain how the younger versions of characters turned into their older selves. It worked in nearly every case, but one (which I’ll touch on later). The perfect amount of time and detail was spent on the transformations (or history, motive, layers). 

I also found it beautiful that at the end of the day everybody was driven by Tannhaus’s original motive - to save their child/family. Katharina, Ulrich, Noah, Claudia, this Eva persona all worked to save their children.

I did like that Tannhaus was given significance, it was suspicious from the beginning that he would play a larger role in the story. (I however have very conflicted feelings about the kind of role he ended up having) 

I also liked the Adam and Eve, creation, paradise etc symbolism which they remained faithful to throughout the series. It was a nice and consistent metaphoric framework, which, for the most part, aligned with literal events in the story.  Man plays God. God creates Adam and Eve, their love, the apple, the forbidden fruit ends paradise, punishment, pain, pursuit of paradise, sacrifices to God, etc...There was a serpent bracelet too, which was cool to be serpent shaped, but I didn’t quite catch any significance in its placement in the story. 

I enjoyed the acting especially from the older cast, they just killed it in every scene.

I have huge respect for the effort they put into tying up most lose ends and explaining details (the Saint Christopher pendant, the coins, the family relations, certain actions, characteristics, etc) 

I’m glad that Claudia deservingly got to be the main player who was smarter than everybody. 

And hats off to whoever didn’t go mad writing this story. I bet three quarters of the cast has no idea what’s the story they worked to bring to life, I wouldn’t either.

All the not so great things 

Spoiler

I spent the first 5 episodes not understanding anything. Then things fell into place during the last 2-3 episodes and I thought, Ah right, of course! However, since then, the more I think about it, the less I understand what actually happened. In fact there are so many intertwining time and dimension lines that my brain just can’t process and keep up with all of them simultaneously, so I have no idea how we got to the conclusion. I understand the it, but I don’t understand why that’s the conclusion. Tannhaus in the 70s(?) lost his family and worked to build a machine to go back in time and save them because that was a hereditary obsession in his family. So HOW did he do that? Where did he go back in time? Or did he not? Did he accidentally (or purposely?) crack the space-time continuum and created two parallel words? How in the hell did that bring about the existence of any of the Nielsens? Even if we say Hannah was alive and Regina was alive we don’t know if there was a Bartosz so there’d be an Agnes, and let’s not even talk about the random menacing dude who allegedly impregnated her (why, when and how that would happen is beyond me). But all right, let’s say he did. Why does Jonas exist in one and why does he not exist in the other? 

Nevermind. My inability to grasp the sci fi logic is hardly the biggest problem with the season. 

So we spend two entire season in one world with a set of characters and events. And then season 3, instead of beginning to resolve the timelines and making sense of the first two, introduces a second, parallel world. And then a THIRD, original world. In the one season that’s supposed to CONCLUDE an existing story, not build two more on top that we wouldn’t really care about anyway. And since we must follow through the previous events in this alternate world as well, the pace is insane. Oddly enough while I had no idea what, when and where is going on, I was still bored because I was watching roughly the same thing I watched in season 1, a bit differently here and there, but essentially the same exact pattern. I don’t care about these versions of the characters as I met them and connected with them in the Jonas edition of the world. I don’t care what happens here, I want it to be over to know what happens in the world that I care about. I didn’t even want to understand who said what to whom and why, and what that made whom to do and why. 

Conceptually, I think that three worlds is too much, the alternate world was a completely unnecessary complication that added nothing to the preexisting story yet took away valuable time from concluding the Jonas world. Just one time-bent world and one original world seems like the better idea to me, especially that we never found out how the two time-bent versions came to be. But if we are going with three worlds, structurally I would have preferred the introduction of the alter world in season two and spent season three untying the storylines. That way I might have cared about Or understood what’s going on in the alternate world. 
 

Smaller things: 

this random menacing dude had literally no purpose, function, personality or anything at all in the story. He was essentially a stand in. It is beyond me why had to be in the story at all. That really really bothered me. 

And so Alexander Tiedemann was just one big fat red herring all the while. Who accidentally killed someone and took a false identity to start over and then... died? Vanished? Was forgotten about? Did he know what the substance was? Did he remain oblivious and thought I was merely covering up a nuclear accident? What did Wöller report to him? What did he do with that information? Was Boris Niewald truly more random than the menacing dude? Was his sole purpose to father Bartosz and finance Hannah? So what was ever the point of his having a false identity? I can’t help but think that he was a brutally and mercilessly abandoned plotline which would actually have been better than what we ended up with. 

Eva was a pale shadow of Adam. She never had the time or the plot building to come across half as serious, threatening, dangerous or powerful as her other-world counterpart. This is essentially true for every aspect and character of the alternate world. 

I’m also not a fan of the entire loophole and the two worlds revolving around Jonas and Martha’s romance. I mean I personally never bought into their love story. And the whole time-crossed lovers ending felt forced and over played. There were several other relationships in the story that felt more real and powerful to me (Alexander and Regina, Franziska and Magnus, most parent-child relationships), and the ultimate romantic union that stretched through time and hardship was, is and will always be Ulrich and Katharina. 

Well that felt great to get off my mind. 
 

wait, one more thing 

Spoiler

So how does all this translate to the labyrinth symbolism? Why is Martha Ariadne, who’s the Minotaur and why does the reaching the middle of the labyrinth mean there’s another alternate labyrinth, or is it a mirror labyrinth? But the alter world wasn’t strictly speaking an opposite of the other one. I’m not sure where that was going but it met the same fate as Alexander. 

 

Edited by RhaenysBee

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Posted (edited)

Regarding Aleksander:

Spoiler

Presumably, in a world where Ulrich doesn't exist, Hannah never falsely accuses Katharine of being raped, and they never blame it on Regina, and so she's never being bullied in the forest on the day he shows up to town and helps her.

Thus, she never meets him and falls for him.  

ETA: There's also no power plant in the origin world, so he wouldn't have been able to have Regina help him get a job there.

 

Edited by briantw

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I also agree with @RhaenysBee on pretty much every point. I really wanted to love this season, because I did love the other two (although the second season had weaker elements in that I think are on show here, but to a lesser extent)

It wasn't that the last season was bad, but it was messy, and its conclusions didn't feel like it came from the show of the first season. I respect the level of intricacy with the plotting on the show, and that it really does appear to have been planned as a complete 3 season arc, but by the end rather than revealing how things tied together, the show simply added more and more layers to wade through. 

Oh well. 
 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, briantw said:

Regarding Aleksander:

  Hide contents

Presumably, in a world where Ulrich doesn't exist, Hannah never falsely accuses Katharine of being raped, and they never blame it on Regina, and so she's never being bullied in the forest on the day he shows up to town and helps her.

Thus, she never meets him and falls for him.  

 

Spoiler

That’s all perfectly fine, but if Alexander was an existing random person who accidentally killed Clausen’s brother and fled to Winden to start over, why wouldn’t he wind up at Winden’s largest employer, the Kraftwerk, which is run by Regina’s mother? I’m not saying they’d necessarily run into each other at the bring your kid to work day, but the likelihood is no smaller than Aleksander’s running into Regina in a forest right when she was being bullied. It doesn’t really matter if they end up together or not, I just wish we had seen a conclusion for Aleksander. Probably because I always liked him as a person. 

 

Edited by RhaenysBee

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13 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:
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That’s all perfectly fine, but if Alexander was an existing random person who accidentally killed Clausen’s brother and fled to Winden to start over, why wouldn’t he wind up at Winden’s largest employer, the Kraftwerk, which is run by Regina’s mother? I’m not saying they’d necessarily run into each other at the bring your kid to work day, but the likelihood is no smaller than Aleksander’s running into Regina in a forest right when she was being bullied. It doesn’t really matter if they end up together or not, I just wish we had seen a conclusion for Aleksander. Probably because I always liked him as a person. 

 

Spoiler

Did he go to Winden specifically to start over?  In the first season he's been shot and is in bad shape, and potentially only stays in Winden because Regina helps him after he helps her.  

It's possible in the origin world that he simply passes out in the forest and bleeds to death. 

 

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1 minute ago, briantw said:
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Did he go to Winden specifically to start over?  In the first season he's been shot and is in bad shape, and potentially only stays in Winden because Regina helps him after he helps her.  

It's possible in the origin world that he simply passes out in the forest and bleeds to death. 

 

Spoiler

:lol: you’re right, that’s a possibility too. Maybe that’s what happened to him. 

 

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I usually go on reddit once a season of Dark is done and found out so many awesome things that I missed. This time all I’m getting is plot holes.

Spoiler

Broadly speaking, Dark is less and less interesting the more people know about time travel. Ulrich is a kind of pure example of someone who doesn’t know much; he believes Helge to be responsible for his son’s disappearance and Mads death, so he goes back semi-accidentally to 1953, where he fulfils his destiny of wounding Helge and ultimately growing old in a psychiatric ward. He was only ever motivated by the desire to get his son back, and save the children from their fate. Yasin, Erik, Mads.

At a certain point, the writers essentially give up giving people these motivations. They still spout quotes that pay lip service to the idea, “a man can will what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills”. By the end of the third season, virtually every one of our characters have been accosted by either Adam or Eva or Claudia and convinced that preserving the loop is paramount. Why does Charlotte get placed with Tannhaus? The loop. Nobody actually desires it, or accidentally causes it. It just gets done. This is the explanation of a good 70% of the mysteries in the end. Our three main players, Adam, Eva, Claudia, constantly say that this loop cannot be changed and then spent every waking minute of their lives engineering it to not change.

You can say the same for plot elements as well: the chair in the bunker was initially presented as an experiment. But then we learn that, no, Sic Mundus already had a way more advanced portal and they were learning nothing. It was needless child murder all in the name of the loop. This too is a crutch of the writing, it’s applicable to literally anything: it’s not a chair, it’s a giraffe who must be smothered in jam, because that’s how the loop goes. That literally makes as much sense, being that both are fabricated from thin air and aren’t wilfully created by anyone.

 

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"By the end of the third season, virtually every one of our characters have been accosted by either Adam or Eva or Claudia and convinced that preserving the loop is paramount."

This maybe the biggest flaw of the show actually. Your comment has helped me to realise it. Initially the characters were interacting with time itself. Time was this powerful force and all the characters were being dragged along by it. There was something quite spiritual and awe inspiring in that concept, something bigger than all of us. It was like looking out at the universe and seeing how massively powerful it is.

But then the show shifted gears and it was people who were controlling time.. well sort of. All the major events became part of a plan, it was people who were making things happen, not the natural consequences of the nature of time itself. That is just less interesting, and falls into the standard Time Travel plot, like sending someone back to save Sarah Connor. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I usually go on reddit once a season of Dark is done and found out so many awesome things that I missed. This time all I’m getting is plot holes.

  Hide contents

Broadly speaking, Dark is less and less interesting the more people know about time travel. Ulrich is a kind of pure example of someone who doesn’t know much; he believes Helge to be responsible for his son’s disappearance and Mads death, so he goes back semi-accidentally to 1953, where he fulfils his destiny of wounding Helge and ultimately growing old in a psychiatric ward. He was only ever motivated by the desire to get his son back, and save the children from their fate. Yasin, Erik, Mads.

At a certain point, the writers essentially give up giving people these motivations. They still spout quotes that pay lip service to the idea, “a man can will what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills”. By the end of the third season, virtually every one of our characters have been accosted by either Adam or Eva or Claudia and convinced that preserving the loop is paramount. Why does Charlotte get placed with Tannhaus? The loop. Nobody actually desires it, or accidentally causes it. It just gets done. This is the explanation of a good 70% of the mysteries in the end. Our three main players, Adam, Eva, Claudia, constantly say that this loop cannot be changed and then spent every waking minute of their lives engineering it to not change.

You can say the same for plot elements as well: the chair in the bunker was initially presented as an experiment. But then we learn that, no, Sic Mundus already had a way more advanced portal and they were learning nothing. It was needless child murder all in the name of the loop. This too is a crutch of the writing, it’s applicable to literally anything: it’s not a chair, it’s a giraffe who must be smothered in jam, because that’s how the loop goes. That literally makes as much sense, being that both are fabricated from thin air and aren’t wilfully created by anyone.

 

Spoiler

Time travel is hard. For example, the bold. Maybe that's true but the experiments in 1986 triggered events in 2019 which triggered Jonas going back in time and so on. So while they did have an advanced portal in 1922, it was a significantly older Jonas who was leading it and the events that preceded it is what lead him to even be there in the first place. It's chicken or the egg and a lot of time travel is like that. I get your point in terms of the final season being all about the loop but the whole battle was about destroying vs maintaining the way things were, one to kill the pain of reliving the death of the woman he loves and the other to maintain the child she grew to love (even if he's a creepy fucker).

I get the issues, they just didn't bother me much.

 

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23 minutes ago, Heartofice said:
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"By the end of the third season, virtually every one of our characters have been accosted by either Adam or Eva or Claudia and convinced that preserving the loop is paramount."

This maybe the biggest flaw of the show actually. Your comment has helped me to realise it. Initially the characters were interacting with time itself. Time was this powerful force and all the characters were being dragged along by it. There was something quite spiritual and awe inspiring in that concept, something bigger than all of us. It was like looking out at the universe and seeing how massively powerful it is.

But then the show shifted gears and it was people who were controlling time.. well sort of. All the major events became part of a plan, it was people who were making things happen, not the natural consequences of the nature of time itself. That is just less interesting, and falls into the standard Time Travel plot, like sending someone back to save Sarah Connor. 

 

 

Your second paragraph is the perfect summary of the essence of the problem. 
 

Spoiler

By introducing the duality of the world and shifting the focus to the  powerplay between two opposing forces, time itself became unimportant. Adam and Eva’s conflict could as well have been about a castle or a stock deal. The story was no longer about individuals’ fight against fate/God/the unbridled power of time. It was a conflict between two sides, two flawed humans who are both mistaken in their interpretation of events and corrupted by selfish motives. 9 out of 10 fantasy/sci-fi/adventure stories are constructed according to that pattern. There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, it was just the way season 3 lost its mystique which was one of the main qualities that made Dark stand out in the crowd.

 

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I usually go on reddit once a season of Dark is done and found out so many awesome things that I missed. This time all I’m getting is plot holes.

  Hide contents

Broadly speaking, Dark is less and less interesting the more people know about time travel. Ulrich is a kind of pure example of someone who doesn’t know much; he believes Helge to be responsible for his son’s disappearance and Mads death, so he goes back semi-accidentally to 1953, where he fulfils his destiny of wounding Helge and ultimately growing old in a psychiatric ward. He was only ever motivated by the desire to get his son back, and save the children from their fate. Yasin, Erik, Mads.

At a certain point, the writers essentially give up giving people these motivations. They still spout quotes that pay lip service to the idea, “a man can will what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills”. By the end of the third season, virtually every one of our characters have been accosted by either Adam or Eva or Claudia and convinced that preserving the loop is paramount. Why does Charlotte get placed with Tannhaus? The loop. Nobody actually desires it, or accidentally causes it. It just gets done. This is the explanation of a good 70% of the mysteries in the end. Our three main players, Adam, Eva, Claudia, constantly say that this loop cannot be changed and then spent every waking minute of their lives engineering it to not change.

You can say the same for plot elements as well: the chair in the bunker was initially presented as an experiment. But then we learn that, no, Sic Mundus already had a way more advanced portal and they were learning nothing. It was needless child murder all in the name of the loop. This too is a crutch of the writing, it’s applicable to literally anything: it’s not a chair, it’s a giraffe who must be smothered in jam, because that’s how the loop goes. That literally makes as much sense, being that both are fabricated from thin air and aren’t wilfully created by anyone.

 

Spoiler

I thought they did a pretty good job putting reason, motive and layer behind characters and events. I never thought about why Charlotte was given to Tannhaus, but I can see why it’d bother someone they missed to explain it. 

Having said that, I do agree with previous posts voicing the opinion  that characters trusted anybody and everybody to manipulate them for no reason. I suppose one would by nature tend to trust themselves, especially an older version, then again, Jonas heeded Adam several times even after he repeatedly betrayed him.

Free will versus predestination by fate as a theme was lost along with the labyrinth analogy with the introduction of dual worlds - which, as I have said before, hardly did the story and its original topics any good. 


 

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5 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Your second paragraph is the perfect summary of the essence of the problem. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

By introducing the duality of the world and shifting the focus to the  powerplay between two opposing forces, time itself became unimportant. Adam and Eva’s conflict could as well have been about a castle or a stock deal. The story was no longer about individuals’ fight against fate/God/the unbridled power of time. It was a conflict between two sides, two flawed humans who are both mistaken in their interpretation of events and corrupted by selfish motives. 9 out of 10 fantasy/sci-fi/adventure stories are constructed according to that pattern. There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, it was just the way season 3 lost its mystique which was one of the main qualities that made Dark stand out in the crowd.

 

  Hide contents

I thought they did a pretty good job putting reason, motive and layer behind characters and events. I never thought about why Charlotte was given to Tannhaus, but I can see why it’d bother someone they missed to explain it. 

Having said that, I do agree with previous posts voicing the opinion  that characters trusted anybody and everybody to manipulate them for no reason. I suppose one would by nature tend to trust themselves, especially an older version, then again, Jonas heeded Adam several times even after he repeatedly betrayed him.

Free will versus predestination by fate as a theme was lost along with the labyrinth analogy with the introduction of dual worlds - which, as I have said before, hardly did the story and its original topics any good. 

 

 

Spoiler

Speaking of Charlotte, she was easily the worst served character this season (not counting alt-Charlotte). She’s united with her mother/daughter, which should be a lovely moment ... but we never get to see it. She’s then apparently inducted into Adam’s way of thinking and signs up for all loop maintaining errands, all completely off screen. Did she even have a single line of dialogue all season?

 

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I did think the characters were speaking more in grandiose quotes than as actual people this season, but I took that as a shift away from realistic TV into more of a stage play tragedy with archetypes in keeping with the increased prominence of the Ariadne play so it didn't bother me.

11 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Your second paragraph is the perfect summary of the essence of the problem. 
 

  Hide contents

By introducing the duality of the world and shifting the focus to the  powerplay between two opposing forces, time itself became unimportant. Adam and Eva’s conflict could as well have been about a castle or a stock deal. The story was no longer about individuals’ fight against fate/God/the unbridled power of time. It was a conflict between two sides, two flawed humans who are both mistaken in their interpretation of events and corrupted by selfish motives. 9 out of 10 fantasy/sci-fi/adventure stories are constructed according to that pattern. There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, it was just the way season 3 lost its mystique which was one of the main qualities that made Dark stand out in the crowd.

 

  Hide contents

I thought they did a pretty good job putting reason, motive and layer behind characters and events. I never thought about why Charlotte was given to Tannhaus, but I can see why it’d bother someone they missed to explain it. 

Having said that, I do agree with previous posts voicing the opinion  that characters trusted anybody and everybody to manipulate them for no reason. I suppose one would by nature tend to trust themselves, especially an older version, then again, Jonas heeded Adam several times even after he repeatedly betrayed him.

Free will versus predestination by fate as a theme was lost along with the labyrinth analogy with the introduction of dual worlds - which, as I have said before, hardly did the story and its original topics any good. 

 

 

On your bolded in the first part

Spoiler

I actually disagree completely, it did reframe the plot yes but it didn't render time impotent - its the tyrant that is imposing the world in which they live. Adam chooses to try destroy everything to overthrow that tyrant while Eva chooses to serve it to preserve that which she loves under its rule. 

And bolded in the second

Spoiler

I felt like this was OK because of the moment with Jonas and Martha right after she scratches her face on the fence and he has his moment of perceived revelation and chooses to rebel against Eva's instructions thinking that he has previously obeyed. Whether they trust or doubt is irrelevant because its the same choice they have made every other time in the loop, so even when they attempt to rebel that is what already happened. They can't escape time.

We also had these moments of showing that they simply cannot die when their older selves exist, time will override their agency to the point of ensuring guns do not fire, someone will walk in and save them etc.

 

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10 hours ago, DaveSumm said:
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Speaking of Charlotte, she was easily the worst served character this season (not counting alt-Charlotte). She’s united with her mother/daughter, which should be a lovely moment ... but we never get to see it. She’s then apparently inducted into Adam’s way of thinking and signs up for all loop maintaining errands, all completely off screen. Did she even have a single line of dialogue all season?

 

True. 

Spoiler

Many of the Jonas world characters as we knew them were pushed to the margin to make room for the alternate world and the five versions of Eva. Charlotte, Helge, Agnes, Tronte and Jana and as I keep complaining Aleksander were all given a bit less time than they deserved.  

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

I did think the characters were speaking more in grandiose quotes than as actual people this season, but I took that as a shift away from realistic TV into more of a stage play tragedy with archetypes in keeping with the increased prominence of the Ariadne play so it didn't bother me.

On your bolded in the first part

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I actually disagree completely, it did reframe the plot yes but it didn't render time impotent - its the tyrant that is imposing the world in which they live. Adam chooses to try destroy everything to overthrow that tyrant while Eva chooses to serve it to preserve that which she loves under its rule. 

And bolded in the second

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I felt like this was OK because of the moment with Jonas and Martha right after she scratches her face on the fence and he has his moment of perceived revelation and chooses to rebel against Eva's instructions thinking that he has previously obeyed. Whether they trust or doubt is irrelevant because its the same choice they have made every other time in the loop, so even when they attempt to rebel that is what already happened. They can't escape time.

We also had these moments of showing that they simply cannot die when their older selves exist, time will override their agency to the point of ensuring guns do not fire, someone will walk in and save them etc.

 

Spoiler

I think I understand your point, however, to me the tyranny of time still seems as though it could as well have been a social order, a religion or even a magic castle. Adam and Eva, to me, seemed to be in a tug of war, and what the rope exactly was seemed to lose its significance, as the fight was between the two parties and not one party and the rope. But I can absolutely see that it would come across differently to all of us. 
 

Yes, I do admit that the several young alter Marthas and their different number of cuts was something I struggled to follow - and quite honestly weren’t too invested in trying to follow either. So it’s absolutely possible that I missed a few things there and maybe there were traces of the free will vs predestination topic. 

 

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Spoiler

I’m trying to unpick the rules of this quantum entanglement nonsense. So let’s say that Eve uses the time freeze moment to either a) send Bartosz to stop Martha or b) doesn’t. We have to assume that the resultant reality is immediately merged into the original one, as we then subsequently see duplicate Martha interacting with other people.  
 

So why aren’t there two Bartosz’s? Why not two Eva’s to make the decision or not? What exactly are the rules on who gets duplicated and who doesn’t? If this duplicate Martha created a duplicate Jonas just by saving him from the apocalypse, why doesn’t everyone who they interact with have a duplicate created of them too?

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, DaveSumm said:
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I’m trying to unpick the rules of this quantum entanglement nonsense.

 

This way lies madness. 

Spoiler

There isn't two Eves because Martha died in one version.  Jonas dies in the other, so there isn't two Jonas.  The infinity symbol is a mobius strip -- the realities are on different sides of the strip but it only have one side.  They create and blend into each other, not immediately, but with the next iteration.  I take it as Adam's world happens, then Eve's world happens, then Adam's, then Eva's...  etc.to infinity if you want to track the causality of it all linearly.

Jonas is saved by Eve's machinations, only to be killed by Marta in the Jonas-less world.  The other version of Jonas who saved himself (going into the basement) becomes the Stranger, who stays in his own world (creating the accident from which his younger self hid in the basement), who becomes Adam who kills Marta.  Adam then captures from the Jonas-less world Marta who is  pregnant,  and tries to destroy both worlds by killing her and the baby with the dark matter wormhole (this is a total failure -- Marta doesn't even die, let alone the worlds are destroyed).  That preggo Marta goes on to kill Jonas. 

In the Jonas-less world the earlier not-pregnant Marta isn't killed by Adam because Adam doesn't exist, and she is sent by Eve to the other world to save Jonas, so he does not become the Stranger, nor becomes Adam, because Marta kills him, but only after he impregnates her.  She kills him and then becomes Eve.

Nobody is really duplicated -- it's just different iterations.
 

 

Edited by SpaceChampion

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

This way lies madness. 

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There isn't two Eves because Martha died in one version.  Jonas dies in the other, so there isn't two Jonas.  The infinity symbol is a mobius strip -- the realities are on different sides of the strip but it only have one side.  They create and blend into each other, not immediately, but with the next iteration.  I take it as Adam's world happens, then Eve's world happens, then Adam's, then Eva's...  etc.to infinity if you want to track the causality of it all linearly.

Jonas is saved by Eve's machinations, only to be killed by Marta in the Jonas-less world.  The other version of Jonas who saved himself (going into the basement) becomes the Stranger, who stays in his own world (creating the accident from which his younger self hid in the basement), who becomes Adam who kills Marta.  Adam then captures from the Jonas-less world Marta who is  pregnant,  and tries to destroy both worlds by killing her and the baby with the dark matter wormhole (this is a total failure -- Marta doesn't even die, let alone the worlds are destroyed).  That preggo Marta goes on to kill Jonas. 

In the Jonas-less world the earlier not-pregnant Marta isn't killed by Adam because Adam doesn't exist, and she is sent by Eve to the other world to save Jonas, so he does not become the Stranger, nor becomes Adam, because Marta kills him, but only after he impregnates her.  She kills him and then becomes Eve.

Nobody is really duplicated -- it's just different iterations.
 

 

^This

Spoiler

Eva explains it to Martha when she draws the infinity symbol.

 

Edited by Corvinus85

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