Feminism -- A continuing discussion

[Xray the Enforcer]

BTW, @Triskele I just wanted to acknowledge your post from the last thread and thank you for sharing your perspective.  

[Yukle]

I went shopping with my kids yesterday (and survived, go me! ) 

Usually when shopping, I hold up two or three items to my kids and ask them to point to which one they want. Obviously this means that I can pretty much predetermine what sort of clothes they have (or they'd have cupboards only including gumboots, tutus, capes, Batman pyjamas and dressing gowns for warmth).

More often than not it's a matter of them just deciding which pattern / superhero / Disney character / colour they want on this particular item of clothing.

Something that continuously bothers me, though, is the way that shopping for boys and girls varies. I have one of both, and boys' clothes are essentially tracksuit pants with reinforced knees and t-shirts. Girls' clothes generally don't have shoulders on them or have shorts that don't cover the knees. Their pants are generally form-fitting, too, and lack extra padding.

So, to be honest, my daughter just gets boys clothes a lot. Otherwise she'd wear out her clothes every two weeks.

It's frustrating the hell out of me. Beyond the fact that it feels like sexualising small girls (even if only a little) there are huge practical concerns. When they go outside, kids get dirty, spend a lot of time on their knees, hurl themselves upside down, shove dirt down their pants, slide along on their bums - all of which I'm perfectly happy for them to do, and I want my kids doing.

The problem is that girls' clothes don't survive this treatment. There's a subtle message being said from a young age that girls are more passive. Were my daughter in the typical off-the-shelf clothing for girls, she couldn't comfortably play without wrecking her clothes, leading to discomfort. And I'm sure there are lots of parents who'd be frustrated if their daughters kept tearing clothing and simply told them to be less rough.

My solution is, of course, I just don't really buy gendered clothing. Or, if I do, it's boy clothing. But then I also worry about the message of a gender hierarchy that sends. It irritates me when girls' interests are seen as inferior to boys'. A girl who participates in traditionally masculine roles is held in much better esteem than a boy who participates in traditionally feminine roles. The former has stepped up, the latter has diminished himself, and that annoys me.

I don't want to be sending a subtle message she is getting boys' clothes or androgynous clothes because girls' clothes are bad and covered in silly girly things. Rather, I just don't like that they're not Sun-Smart or hard wearing.

This post is much longer than I thought it would be, but I am much more annoyed about this than I thought I would be. There are many inherent disadvantages that girls face in ways that you wouldn't really think of day-to-day and their stupid clothing designs as kids is one of them.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

@Xray the Enforcer

Quote

Honestly, the feminism thread may be the best place to hash this out without it getting thoroughly toxic and rapey -- or maybe not. I don't know. But I do agree with the recent posts: this is an issue where men have to lead. Women -- the targets of incels' hatred -- cannot be asked to do the labor on this. It will lead nowhere. Instead, men need to look to how they interact with each other and ask "how can we tackle this?" This will not be easy to address, any more than tackling systemic racism is easy to tackle in the white community. But it's work that has to be done. 

While you certainly do have a point, the relationship needs to be more symbiotic. And this really applies to most situations where a minority group or a group that lacks equal power, be it gender, race, religion or sexual indemnity, is asking for equality. I think the first step has to be to figure out how to make the person/people from the group with power listen. Once you can achieve that, you can make appeals to their empathy and morality and hopefully flip them into an ally. The LGBTQ community did this exceptionally well, and in the wake of the Me Too movement, I feel like women have done an excellent job at getting men to shut up and listen to their stories. Sure, not everyone will change, but I'm optimistic that things will be a lot better 5 years from now than they are today.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Well, women are doing that labor now. Our job is to show people that these incel communities exist and are supremely toxic. But it will be men talking to other men that will actually address the root problem(s)and get those currently in the incel community rehabilitated to a point where a plurality of interaction will be welcome on both sides. I mean, seriously. Do you really think the men in the links above are going to listen to women at this juncture? Of course not. But they *might* listen to other men. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Something that continuously bothers me, though, is the way that shopping for boys and girls varies. I have one of both, and boys' clothes are essentially tracksuit pants with reinforced knees and t-shirts. Girls' clothes generally don't have shoulders on them or have shorts that don't cover the knees. Their pants are generally form-fitting, too, and lack extra padding.

So, to be honest, my daughter just gets boys clothes a lot. Otherwise she'd wear out her clothes every two weeks.

Or you could invent a new line of clothing and get rich quick. 

Quote

It's frustrating the hell out of me. Beyond the fact that it feels like sexualising small girls (even if only a little) there are huge practical concerns.

This is actually a trend I find disturbing. I don't recall girls being sexualized when I was a kid, but now I regularly seen girls under the age of 10 wearing booty shorts. What are we doing? It's so creepy. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

Well, women are doing that labor now. Our job is to show people that these incel communities exist and are supremely toxic. But it will be men talking to other men that will actually address the root problem and get those currently in the incel community rehabilitated to a point where a plurality of interaction will be welcome on both sides. 

I agree. Like Luke, I had never even heard of incel until I randomly read the Feminism thread last night, and they sound like the scum of the earth. One thing that I think is really important is we have to teach people a lot earlier on in their lives. I graduated from college 7 years ago, and it was only at the tail end that I really had rape culture explained to me in a way that made me fully realize how I need to conduct myself. I was a party boy, and I know I would have made a ton of different, and sadly better, decisions if that had happened in high school instead. 

[maarsen]

31 minutes ago, Yukle said:

I went shopping with my kids yesterday (and survived, go me! ) 

Usually when shopping, I hold up two or three items to my kids and ask them to point to which one they want. Obviously this means that I can pretty much predetermine what sort of clothes they have (or they'd have cupboards only including gumboots, tutus, capes, Batman pyjamas and dressing gowns for warmth).

More often than not it's a matter of them just deciding which pattern / superhero / Disney character / colour they want on this particular item of clothing.

Something that continuously bothers me, though, is the way that shopping for boys and girls varies. I have one of both, and boys' clothes are essentially tracksuit pants with reinforced knees and t-shirts. Girls' clothes generally don't have shoulders on them or have shorts that don't cover the knees. Their pants are generally form-fitting, too, and lack extra padding.

So, to be honest, my daughter just gets boys clothes a lot. Otherwise she'd wear out her clothes every two weeks.

It's frustrating the hell out of me. Beyond the fact that it feels like sexualising small girls (even if only a little) there are huge practical concerns. When they go outside, kids get dirty, spend a lot of time on their knees, hurl themselves upside down, shove dirt down their pants, slide along on their bums - all of which I'm perfectly happy for them to do, and I want my kids doing.

The problem is that girls' clothes don't survive this treatment. There's a subtle message being said from a young age that girls are more passive. Were my daughter in the typical off-the-shelf clothing for girls, she couldn't comfortably play without wrecking her clothes, leading to discomfort. And I'm sure there are lots of parents who'd be frustrated if their daughters kept tearing clothing and simply told them to be less rough.

My solution is, of course, I just don't really buy gendered clothing. Or, if I do, it's boy clothing. But then I also worry about the message of a gender hierarchy that sends. It irritates me when girls' interests are seen as inferior to boys'. A girl who participates in traditionally masculine roles is held in much better esteem than a boy who participates in traditionally feminine roles. The former has stepped up, the latter has diminished himself, and that annoys me.

I don't want to be sending a subtle message she is getting boys' clothes or androgynous clothes because girls' clothes are bad and covered in silly girly things. Rather, I just don't like that they're not Sun-Smart or hard wearing.

This post is much longer than I thought it would be, but I am much more annoyed about this than I thought I would be. There are many inherent disadvantages that girls face in ways that you wouldn't really think of day-to-day and their stupid clothing designs as kids is one of them.

Yukle, I raised 2 girls and we had the same problem. We just stuck them in boys clothes that fit, and which my girls actually liked, at least until they approached puberty and decided to switch to dresses and such. I am pretty sure your daughter will let you know when she wants something different to wear. You are sending a message that you are being practical.

[HexMachina]

9 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don’t know if these links will work but these are the first few posts I found when I checked a popular anti-incel Facebook group 

CONTENT WARNING: 

rape and violence against women 

https://ibb.co/jnMK3n
https://ibb.co/i80COn
https://ibb.co/dH6V9S
https://ibb.co/ntKiUS

PLEASE DONT CLICK if you aren’t feeling up to seeing some seriously nasty stuff  

this thing SCARES me. And only emphasises my theory that these men were genuine misogynists before. They aren’t just downtrodden down on your luck dudes, they HATE women. 

The world seemed a bit brighter this morning, before I knew so much about the incel community and the type of things they say, do and believe.  But thank you Theda for sharing this stuff, I appreciate it. I think it’s important that people are aware of how toxic and gross this stuff is. 

[JGP]

I've spent the better part of seven or eight hours over the last few days deep diving into this shit so I could get a handle on it and the only result I've arrived at thus far [taking a serious break] are emotions ranging from anger to shame. I mean, I have semi-regular conversations with my daughters about problematic individuals at their school [and occasional with staff at said school about the same] but if one of them caught wind about incels from any of their precocious friends I'm sure I'd hold forth about as intelligently as a forehead meets a maul.

[Rippounet]

Wow, just wow. This is a level of crazy I didn't think was possible.

I can't resist pointing out:

7 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I did tell these guys- I was like you, in that I was a virgin quite late, at least for my society and peer group, and it was upsetting to me, but I met a girl, and we liked each other, and we have a nice relationship. And they just didn't believe that, either I was lying, or she was cheating on me, or manipulating me. That is quite an feat of delusion, to feel that such a regular story is beyond the realms of possibility.

Quote

It's tough to deal with the world as you find it, but that doesn't mean you're owed vengeance against someone particularly if they never did anything to you. 

These guys don't live in the real world. And by "these guys" I don't mean the majority of the men on the "incel" forums who use them as a crutch, but the ones who have developed the whole "incel" narrative and the ones who deeply believe it and may even act on it.
It's like a twisted version of solipsism: they view their feelings as so important that they basically deny everyone else's. They're not just denying the fact that women are human, they also refuse to believe that anyone who can relate to them is. I'm not even sure this discussion (though there is little to actually discuss, in truth) belongs here, because I think some of these "incels" go far beyond mysoginy. Their sexual frustration gives their craziness an essentially misogynistic dimension but the deeper problem is that they are delusional about the world and have so far retreated into self-pity and self-loathing that they can hardly have basic human empathy anymore. Though many of them are likely rather young and might outgrow their condition, I would assume that the most radical "incels" are quite simply psychotic.

It's one of the darker sides of the internet that anyone who has trouble dealing with reality can construct their own narrative about it, victimize themselves, and attract followers who will be sympathetic to the story because it resonates with their own. Of course there are real problems (like discrimination and sexual frustration) for unattractive men (or women), and of course this will generate anger and hatred. But if that hatred can turn into a genuine belief that at least half of humanity (i.e. women) are not really human, that they are merely sexual objects, and thus can be used as such, then we're in psychosis territory. So while most "incels" are just sad and deserve some measure of pity and help, imho the radical ones are simply finding a way to express much deeper issues.

[Darth Richard II]

I think you are giving these people way too much credit in saying the majority of the people on those forums just use it as a crutch.

[Darth Richard II]

I dunno I was commenting on something said above. I think he was saying a majority of people who post in said forums don't actually believe all that much in the shit they spout but I should let him elaborate.

[karaddin]

I dunno, I feel like that argument is similar to the idea that a large number of the online alt right aren't really neo-nazis, they're just doing it to troll/for the lulz. It might start as true, but the willingness to even joke about this stuff indicates that their starting point isn't too far off the true believers, they're just covering that belief by claiming it as a joke. And it has a habit of reinforcing itself as they get used to using that rhetoric on a daily basis.

Given the most visible and prominent posters tend to be the most extreme, I don't accept that you could get sucked into the incel identification without already being sympathetic to misogynistic belief/blaming women for your problems and diminishing women's humanity in your mind. The article that Theda linked which started this conversation is a prime example of putting up someone who is supposedly a representative of the "silent majority" of incels who aren't actually misogynists, he just throws out these examples of how women have been awful to him in the past. I can accept that happened, teenagers are awful, but you don't just get to attribute that bullying to all women and hate us as a result.

[Theda Baratheon]

6 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think you are giving these people way too much credit in saying the majority of the people on those forums just use it as a crutch.

I think so too. We aren’t talking about guys who feel a bit lonely and sexually frustrated. 

We are talking about people in the incel community who have seen the nasty shit written by others and they’ve STAYED. They’re complicit in it. 

If you’ve found an incel community, spent more than a day on there and HAVENT thought “some of this shit is truly hideous I just can’t be here” then it means you read it and thought it either sounded reasonable or youre 100% behind it and I’m sorry but DONT ask me to feel sympathy for those people because I WONT. I CANT. 

Incel community is NOT the only destination to end up if you’re sad and lonely and frustrated. 

If people have been there for months and years I don’t think you even can help them now 

and misogyny IS a disease - a lot of people have mental health problems yes but we’ve got to stop using mental illness as a scapegoat.

it doesn’t go beyond misogyny - it IS misogyny clear and simple. They might feel other things as well as misogyny but I refuse to feel even a bit of sympathy for them and I’ve tried multiple times 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

I dunno, I feel like that argument is similar to the idea that a large number of the online alt right aren't really neo-nazis, they're just doing it to troll/for the lulz. It might start as true, but the willingness to even joke about this stuff indicates that their starting point isn't too far off the true believers, they're just covering that belief by claiming it as a joke. And it has a habit of reinforcing itself as they get used to using that rhetoric on a daily basis.

Given the most visible and prominent posters tend to be the most extreme, I don't accept that you could get sucked into the incel identification without already being sympathetic to misogynistic belief/blaming women for your problems and diminishing women's humanity in your mind. The article that Theda linked which started this conversation is a prime example of putting up someone who is supposedly a representative of the "silent majority" of incels who aren't actually misogynists, he just throws out these examples of how women have been awful to him in the past. I can accept that happened, teenagers are awful, but you don't just get to attribute that bullying to all women and hate us as a result.

Completely agreed with you. This narratives of we should feel bad for the majority who are just sad sets me on edge and I must say is quite naïve -as I’ve said these communities have been building for quite some time - people have tried to be nice, tried to sympathise and tried to reach out but it just doesn’t work.

if you find the incel community and stay I’d say you were already at least quite sympathetic to misogynistic violence and hatred of women 

[mormont]

9 hours ago, Yukle said:

My solution is, of course, I just don't really buy gendered clothing.

I have to say, this was my preference but finding any non-gendered clothing for kids at all was extremely difficult. The default in any clothing store was that there was a girls' section and a boys' section and nothing else: and nothing that was in one section could be found in the other. This, right from the start, made it tricky as neither child was keen to wear something from the 'wrong' section even if it was not otherwise identifiably intended for the other gender. And honestly, it almost always was. 

You're bang on about the durability and practicality of clothes intended for girls, too. That was a real issue for us.

[Theda Baratheon]

When I was a kid I distinctly remember having to wear a couple of truly hideous dresses on a few special occasions but for the most part I lived in jeans/trousers and t shirts - likely a lot of them were from charity shops but no judgement here because I still like charity shops now and I had some super cute hilarious t shirts. I remember one just said SPICE in capital letters but I don’t think it had anything wrong to do with spice girls and the pictures on the tee didn’t match it at all lol. Adorable.

but I definitely didn’t wear a lot of traditionally feminine girls clothes because I ran EVERYWHERE, climbed trees, cycled a lot (hell I was an active kid... what happened LOL) so it wouldn’t have been practical hence the shirts and trousers. I don’t think I started caring in earnest until I was like 13/14 and suddenly wanted to look 77’ punk rock LOL 

 

[Rippounet]

6 hours ago, Triskele said:

Can you elaborate on this comment?  I'm not sure I'm following.

How would they use it as a crutch?  

I guess this question is really directed at me.

Taking a look at incel.me last night I was surprised to find that the primary theme was more guys lamenting their bad looks/fortune than anything else. There was hatred there of course, but it seemed more a consequence of the misery than the primary element of their ideology.
Also, while the hatred is directed primarily at women, it is not exclusively directed at them. The fact that these guys have derogatory terms for both normal men and women ("chads" and "stacys"), and the fact that the Toronto incel terrorist killed men and women indiscriminately seem to point out that this movement (or whatever you want to call it) isn't *only* about hating women.
Most importantly I did not find any thread (nor even a message IIRC) advocating or even condoning violence towards women, and I even found one strongly condemning one type of perversion, and several demanding that a poster "take accountability for themselves." I guess this is why I'm bringing a bit of nuance to the discussion: I was expecting mainly stuff like @Theda Baratheon posted and didn't really find any. Also, there is even a thread there that pretty much says that the two known incel terrorists were not true incels, but "mentalcels" or "fakecels" and that a true incel is unlikely to be violent. Generally speaking, while their ideology is dark, cynical and nihilistic at times, I have my doubts as to whether violence is an essential component of it. Or maybe incel.me is a moderate group?

Now, feeling that the vast majority of these guys are sad and pathetic doesn't mean one doesn't despise their ideology as a whole. Nor does explaining the source of their adherence to such a twisted ideology means condoning it in any way.

 

[Darzin]

Well reddit shut down the more toxic incel forums but when r/incels was in existence the front page was horrible and they were hopeless. I as a guy who had his first kiss at 24 tried to relate to them many of whom are younger than that, and they just whined how I must be a covert chad, or a beta boy who found some stones they don't want help, even from men, they are a bunch of crabs pulling each other into the cookpot. It's sort of like addiction you need to be ready to get help. I post in and read r/thebluepill sometimes which is a place to mock the redpill and other associated misogynistic subreddits and occasionally incels pop up asking how they can change but I think trying to help them is a fruitless venture until they seek help. 

10 hours ago, Triskele said:

and whether all of these guys grow out of it or whether there are 50-year-old Incels leading the charge.

  Usually they turn in MRAs, Incels, and redpill, all function in the same weird internet ecosystem and share most of the same assumptions about women and society they just relate to it differently. I do think that classic PUA is different from these, it was sleasy but less openly misogynistic, it's just the guys it attracted tended to be of a certain type and now we have this whole new internet misogyny.   

[Mosi Mynn]

On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 1:55 PM, Theda Baratheon said:

Horrid stuff  It was easy to laugh at th m for awhile but some of the content was just too horrific to keep up with. 

A bloke who is seen as having “won the genetic lottery” by being “conventionally attractive” the thing is these incels enforce beauty standards more than most people which makes them feel even more miserable...

More incel terminology (but this is a funny non-incel Twitter thread that mocks it). 

Also, I'm assuming you intelligent and well-read folk have heard of We Hunted The Mammoth who do sterling work in researching incels, MRAs and their ilk so others don't have to sully their internet history.