U.S. Politics- This Is Us, Basically Fascists

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

14 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I've said it a few time before, but can we please stop using the term alt-right? The right term for the so called alt-right is (Neo-)Nazis. So please don't aid them in their rebranding attempts.

I get your point, but there's a rhetorical flip side to that coin.  Namely, being accused of overusing the term "fascist".  I have no interest in playing that game.

[Fragile Bird]

From the looks of things in the US, I’m glad I had a chance to go to so many Worldcons before Trump became president. I may never set foot in the US as a tourist again, except to transit elsewhere. Seriously.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

From the looks of things in the US, I’m glad I had a chance to go to so many Worldcons before Trump became president. I may never set foot in the US as a tourist again, except to transit elsewhere. Seriously.

Understandable.

[Altherion]

5 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

The “controversy” over journalist Sarah Jeong joining the New York Times, explained

In standing by its decision to hire the well-known tech journalist, the Times shut down a major bullying tactic of the alt-right. 

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/3/17644704/sarah-jeong-new-york-times-tweets-backlash-racism

I think Vox is missing the point of such campaigns. The main goal is not to get a specific person dismissed -- this helps quell the controversy and looks like a victory, but, realistically, the replacement of such an individual will typically be somebody with very similar views, but without the incriminating paper or tweet trail. Thus, getting the individual in question fired is at best a secondary concern. It is much more important to force the elites to trot out their arguments about how a white person having said something bad about some other race is grounds for dismissal whereas a non-white person having said something bad about white people is not. The elites have mostly agreed to stand by these arguments, but the arguments themselves are about as weak as such things get and forcing the elites to trot them out again and again helps convert more white people to the views of the alt-right.

It also helps draw mainstream "conservative" groups towards positions of the alt-right. For example, consider this Federalist article while keeping in mind that The Federalist is not an alt-right publication -- they were against Trump for about as long as there was plausible Republican opposition to him and even published a few articles against Trump and the alt-right when he had already secured the nomination. However, when this double standards issue is framed starkly enough, their position is congruent with that of the alt-right.

[Ormond]

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

 

wonderful son, Donald. I mean wonderful is not an accurate describtion, midly put.

The huge majority of parents describe their children with exaggerated positive terms. When Trump tells so many falsehoods which the great majority of other humans would NOT tell, why bother to ding him on this bit of hyperbole which the huge majority are guilty of? It really has no bearing on the other stuff in the tweet that's really important to question. 

[Zorral]

24 minutes ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

From the looks of things in the US, I’m glad I had a chance to go to so many Worldcons before Trump became president. I may never set foot in the US as a tourist again, except to transit elsewhere. Seriously.

Considering how diminished tourism to the USA is since 2016, you are not alone in your decision:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-trump-slump-hits-us-tourism?

Quote

 

The US is one of only two countries in the developed world that saw a net drop in foreign travel from 2015 through 2017: the other nation sharing this dismal fate is that less-than-shining democratic beacon, Turkey, which comes out last in a ranking of 13 countries in terms of their share of people choosing to visit them. The U.S. comes in second-last. The governments of the United Kingdom and the U.S. have advised tourists to be wary of terrorism and violence in Turkey, whose authoritarian government is operating under a State of Emergency, and which suffered a precipitous drop in tourism in the past year. The only positive thing to say about the decline of tourism in the U.S. is that it hasn’t been as bad as Turkey’s —but the margin isn’t very wide. Recall that this downturn in travel to the U.S. has taken place amid a world-wide travel boom.

Here are the rankings in terms of percentage changes of various countries’ share of international tourism in 2017, according to the U.S. Travel Association:

Spain  +32.7%

Australia  +22%

Canada  +21.2%

Saudi Arabia  +20.3%

United Kingdom  +17.9%

United Arab Emirates  16.5%

Thailand  +13.9%

China  +9.3%

Germany  +8%

France  +4%

Italy  +2.2%

US  -6%

Turkey  -6.7%

The overall growth in world-wide tourism during this same period was nearly 8%

 

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, Ormond said:

The huge majority of parents describe their children with exaggerated positive terms. When Trump tells so many falsehoods which the great majority of other humans would NOT tell, why bother to ding him on this bit of hyperbole which the huge majority are guilty of? It really has no bearing on the other stuff in the tweet that's really important to question. 

Yeah, "wonderful".  I also know parents who will openly admit their kid as a total douchebag.  My parents have never qualified their opinion of me in public in that way so I can stand on principal I guess.

Then there's this.  He's a sack of shit, pure and simple.

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/donald-trump-jr-liked-tweet-hoping-quebec-shooter-was-a-muslim-because-it-would-help-his-dad/

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Considering how diminished tourism to the USA is since 2016, you are not alone in your decision:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-trump-slump-hits-us-tourism?

 

Holy crap.  I suspected that might be the case but I never imagined it was that severe.  Canada is up 21%!?! I think it's safe to infer where that delta is coming from.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Here are the rankings in terms of percentage changes of various countries’ share of international tourism in 2017, according to the U.S. Travel Association

I'm not disputing the findings or anything - and the US' decline certainly makes perfect sense - but that's a weird sample of 13 countries.  Would have liked to see a link to the actual data (with presumably more countries included).

[Martell Spy]

13 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I think Vox is missing the point of such campaigns. The main goal is not to get a specific person dismissed -- this helps quell the controversy and looks like a victory, but, realistically, the replacement of such an individual will typically be somebody with very similar views, but without the incriminating paper or tweet trail. Thus, getting the individual in question fired is at best a secondary concern. It is much more important to force the elites to trot out their arguments about how a white person having said something bad about some other race is grounds for dismissal whereas a non-white person having said something bad about white people is not. The elites have mostly agreed to stand by these arguments, but the arguments themselves are about as weak as such things get and forcing the elites to trot them out again and again helps convert more white people to the views of the alt-right.

It also helps draw mainstream "conservative" groups towards positions of the alt-right. For example, consider this Federalist article while keeping in mind that The Federalist is not an alt-right publication -- they were against Trump for about as long as there was plausible Republican opposition to him and even published a few articles against Trump and the alt-right when he had already secured the nomination. However, when this double standards issue is framed starkly enough, their position is congruent with that of the alt-right.

That assumes Jeong can easily be replaced by any breathing person with a vaguely leftward viewpoint. I'm not familiar with Jeong's work, but I assume that is not the case. I know for a fact that James Gunn is not easily replacable, since I'm a Marvel fan.  To deny people like me a good movie is certainly one of the goals of these twats. 

Also, it is very easy to convince conservatives to argue about something that suits their viewpoint/beliefs. I mean all you have to do is post something about how leftists are constantly saying nasty things about the super rich and these are human beings for god sakes being attacked!

[Martell Spy]

Democrats surging on eve of pivotal special election
Republicans have deployed the full machinery of the party to avoid defeat in the final special election before the midterms.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/05/ohio-special-election-democrats-764337

Quote

 

WESTERVILLE, OHIO — The entire Republican Party machinery has converged on this suburban Columbus district for a furious eleventh-hour campaign aimed at saving a conservative House seat and averting another special election disaster.

But in the final days ahead of Tuesday's election, signs were everywhere that Democrats are surging — from recent polling to the private and public statements of many Republicans, including the GOP candidate himself. The district has been reliably red for more than three decades, but the sheer size of the Republican cavalry made clear how worried the party is about losing it.

 

 

[Serious Callers Only]

I think that while it's likely that U.S.A. 'leftism' (lol) will prevent a full blown dictatorship at this time, it's also 'likely' that in the next 40-80 years as the global warming  (+4 ºC) chicken comes to roost a impossible wave of immigrants will make this unmanageable and fascism and total war against these victims will become the greatest genocide yet, Indian subcontinent is screwed by both the loss of crops and space, Brasil and Mexico will probably get insane temperatures that quite likely will turn the Amazon into a nice desert. USA and Canada will probably lose both Florida and a great deal of the area around the great lakes. I'll probably get some waterfront or underwater property if i'm alive and not eaten by roving gangs or a heatstroke.

Canada is screwed too (especially if they don't get nukes for themselves). The reason is both Russia, Alaska, the Northern US and Canada will become breadbaskets. A fascist revanchist USA will definitely invade Canada, if Russia doesn't. China will invade Mongolia (if Russia doesn't go first). Expecting Britain to help, is, uh, optimistic.

It's going to be a fun century! Also Nukes are a security imperative.

 

Maybe some of the (insane and expensive) forced reduction of temperature mega engineering projects will work (like dumping sulfuric acid in atmosphere, or a solar shade both for albedo reduction). But probably not and will make things worse when it's done without coordination or care for side effects.

[Zorral]

43 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm not disputing the findings or anything - and the US' decline certainly makes perfect sense - but that's a weird sample of 13 countries.  Would have liked to see a link to the actual data (with presumably more countries included).

It's really easy to find, about a second, if that much, by plugging in the U.S. Travel Association into your browser and further refining by asking for international travel.  The U.S. Travel Association was cited in the article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/travel/tourism-united-states-international-decline.html

Also the U.S. Department of Commerce, which the many articles published in this last year have cited.

It seems the first segments of the tourism industry to notice this, noticed almost immediately after the election their numbers declining were those who do special outdoors / wilderness kinds of vacationing.  Anyway, they were the first I noticed talking about this. 

I see it when coming back into the US from the Caribbean and South America, and going through Customs, how much less the traffic is now than it was just recently.

https://www.ustravel.org/search/site/International travel to US

What is also interesting is that after a spate of articles reporting on this at the start of the year in a variety of publications, the tourism office of the Commerce Dept. stopped publication of international tourism numbers in March, after saying that the decline in numbers is because people were counting wrong, classifying people are really foreign travelers such as students, as residents.  However, as the US universities have been wailing all year too, foreign student registrations are also significantly down.

So, of course what is wrong with the numbers out of the tourism department  of the U.S. Commerce Dept,  well, we all know it is the fault of Obama because he hates the USA. 

 

 

 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I get your point, but there's a rhetorical flip side to that coin.  Namely, being accused of overusing the term "fascist".  I have no interest in playing that game.

So instead you play along in their game of rebranding? Anyway, if it walks marches like a nazi, talks like a Nazi, then it is a Nazi. I can see why you are afraid of overusing the word, and thus lessen its meaning, however not using it when it's appropriate has the same effect. So don't be afraid to call a Nazi a Nazi. 

1 hour ago, Ormond said:

The huge majority of parents describe their children with exaggerated positive terms. When Trump tells so many falsehoods which the great majority of other humans would NOT tell, why bother to ding him on this bit of hyperbole which the huge majority are guilty of? It really has no bearing on the other stuff in the tweet that's really important to question. 

That was the intended joke in that post actually... Well, that and the fact, that Don Jr. like his old man is one piece of... I see that it didn't really work.

[S John]

24 minutes ago, Serious Callers Only said:

I think that while it's likely that U.S.A. 'leftism' (lol) will prevent a full blown dictatorship at this time, it's also 'likely' that in the next 40-80 years as the global warming (+4 ºC) chicken comes to roost a impossible wave of immigrants will make this unmanageable and fascism and total war against these victims will become the greatest genocide yet, Indian subcontinent is screwed by both the loss of crops and space, Brasil and Mexico will probably get insane temperatures that quite likely will turn the Amazon into a nice desert. USA and Canada will probably lose both Florida and a great deal of the area around the great lakes. I'll probably get some waterfront or underwater property if i'm alive and not eaten by roving gangs or a heatstroke.

Canada is screwed too (especially if they don't get nukes for themselves). The reason is both Russia, Alaska, the Northern US and Canada will become breadbaskets. A fascist revanchist USA will definitely invade Canada, if Russia doesn't. China will invade Mongolia (if Russia doesn't go first).

It's going to be a fun century! Also Nukes are a security imperative.

 

Maybe some of the (insane and expensive) forced reduction of temperature mega engineering projects will work (like dumping sulfuric acid in atmosphere, or a solar shade). But probably not and will make things worse when it's done without coordination or care for side effects.

While you very well could be right, I think we should wait and see how the midterms and 2020 beyond that turn out before we get too upset.  The right has surged in the US, but a pendulum kinda situation isn’t really out of the norm.  To me what is disconcerting about this iteration of the pendulum swing is that large elements on the right simply don’t care about facts.  Like, at all.  But we’ll see.  America might say we’ve had enough in 2018 and/ or 2020 and this’ll all seem like a weird hiccup.  No doubt Trump is causing real damage though.  I’m just not ready to go full gloom and doom yet.

[Serious Callers Only]

For sure, democracy and social leftism are worth fighting for against literal nazis. The fact that they will nakedly torture, rape and kill the opposition if their police state happens helps too.

But the problem is that without a national convention removing 'certain disenfranchisement measures' and certain misuses of the first amendment this shitshow will continue in the younger generations of nihilists and evil people and will be exacerbated by global warming and the insecurity of a USA that lost its 'premier' position (hilariously faster due to Trump).

25% of America revealed as nakedly sociopathic double-thinkers... Not even George Orwell could have imagined better than Fox News and Putin.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

41 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So instead you play along in their game of rebranding? Anyway, if it walks marches like a nazi, talks like a Nazi, then it is a Nazi. I can see why you are afraid of overusing the word, and thus lessen its meaning, however not using it when it's appropriate has the same effect. So don't be afraid to call a Nazi a Nazi. 

The brand itself is toxic.  The connections are clear. 

[Serious Callers Only]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-oil/chinas-unipec-suspends-u-s-oil-imports-as-trade-spat-intensifies-idUSKBN1KO0SB?rpc=401&

Trade wars are easy to win!

 

 

Winning so much it's already sabotaging the next Democrat administration. Never forget. Though of course Fox News Zombies will.

 

Iran/Russia will probably gladly increase their share to China, which will increase the USA/Iran 'tensions' for war, so it can be misconstrued as a 'technical win' if this encourages a war and slightly lowers local fuel price like the mental midget wants. Could be interesting the reaction from the oil industry though.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

33 minutes ago, Serious Callers Only said:

snip

That speech sounded much better in the original german.

... speaking of which, where is Pat Buchanan these days?  This whole administration is right out of one of his wet dreams.  How come he isn't shoving his mug in front of every camera in america going "RAAAAGH THIS IS FUCKING GREAT!!!"?  Is he too worn out from furiously masturbating to an endless loop of Hannity and Fox & Friends?

[Serious Callers Only]

Quote

"I'm not sure why you're looking at us," a masked antifascist woman scolded the police. She criticized their large-unit motorized tactics, as well. "You're moving 30 guys, we're moving five, and we've protected several groups. So we've actually been extremely effective today in protecting the people of Portland, where we live, and where they don't live,” she said.

Quote

Alt-right organizers declared victory as they left the city on decommissioned school buses. And they appeared to be right for two reasons. First, they apparently succeeded in their stated intention of carrying concealed firearms into a city against which Patriot Prayer has repeatedly declared "war." Second, they acted with violent impunity in city streets while the police were otherwise occupied playing cat-and-mouse with counter-protesters.

 

BTW, i didn't know that 2 people had already died defending others from these brownshirts in the last months. Real american heroes..

 

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, S John said:

While you very well could be right, I think we should wait and see how the midterms and 2020 beyond that turn out before we get too upset.  The right has surged in the US, but a pendulum kinda situation isn’t really out of the norm.  To me what is disconcerting about this iteration of the pendulum swing is that large elements on the right simply don’t care about facts.  Like, at all.  But we’ll see.  America might say we’ve had enough in 2018 and/ or 2020 and this’ll all seem like a weird hiccup.  No doubt Trump is causing real damage though.  I’m just not ready to go full gloom and doom yet.

I'm fairly confident that the Democrats will decisively win the 2018 midterms and it's quite likely that they'll do well in 2020 too. The opposition party winning the midterms is one of the most reliable trends of US politics and, as you said, there's a pendulum effect which is also pretty well established. That said, there are three things that give me pause.

First, there are street battles between the far left and the far right which, for obvious reasons, is not in general a feature of healthy societies. This is more a symptom than anything else, but it's an unpleasant one.

Second, a large (and possibly growing) fraction of the population has lost trust in many social institutions. You allude to this as people not caring about the facts, but this is imprecise: it's not that people don't care about facts, it's that they no longer agree what the facts are. Individual human beings are not great at determining what the facts are -- we can get at some via our senses (though even these are not infallible and can be tricked) and some more via instruments, but for the most part, we have to rely on networks of other human beings which we've codified into institutions. If people think that the mainstream media is fake news, academia is a biased collection of parasites and the government is riddled with agents of the deep state sabotaging our democracy, they're not going to accept the output of any of these institutions as facts. Worse, once the trust has been lost, it's not obvious how to get it back. It's not like we can personally audit these institutions; there's an element of faith to every society.

Third, there seem to be a lot more people than before who feel that they're being screwed by society and who feel so rather intensely. There are always people with such feelings -- sometimes almost certainly justified, sometimes almost certainly frivolous -- but there usually aren't this many of them. In a nutshell, if people don't think that their children will be better off than they were, they're more likely to rock the boat.