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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Why did GRRM intend to name last book a time for wolves if the story is supposed to end with Targaryen restoration?

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10 minutes ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

if the story is supposed to end with Targaryen restoration?

Where did this assumption come from? GRRM hasn't revealed the ending, as far as I know. And, as far as I know, hasn't revealed anything about who will sit the Iron Throne (if anyone) once the series concludes. 

Also, the last book being called "A Time for Wolves" wouldn't preclude a possible Targaryen restoration. Why would it? "A Dance with Dragons" had a lot more to it than just Targaryens, "A Game of Thrones" had more to it than just the court in King's Landing.

Edited by Unacosamedarisa

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1) This may be why he changed the title....because the ending is light on wolves, heavy on Targs.

2) He may have changed his mind about the ending, and again, made it more Targ centric over time, as based on the things he does write since 2011, it is very heavy on the Targs, and it appears, to me, that he is more vested in the Targaryens than in the Starks at the present time.

Those are my guesses.

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I think, that Jon Snow is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, also he will be Dany's third husband, and King of 7K in his own right, as Rhaegar's son, not just as Dany's husband. So when he will become King, he will be using wolves/direwolves as his personal sigil. And his children and descendants will also do the same. So 7K will become kingdom of wolves, not kingdom of dragons, as it was for the last 300 years. For now they even use a golden dragon coins as money of Westeros. But when Jon will become king, they may make golden (or silver) wolves to replace golden dragons. If Sansa will remain as Tyrion's wife, then the Lady of Westerlands will be a wolf/Stark. If Arya will marry with Gendry "Baratheon", and they will rule over Stormlands, then that kingdom will also be inherited by "wolves". Stark girls can also inherit Riverlands and The Vale. Bran and Rickon can marry to someone from The Reach and Dorne. Jon is in King's Landing. Thus all seven kingdoms will be overtaken by Starks - a time for wolves.

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I'm sorry to disappoint you but there won't be a Targaryen restoration. There will be however a Stark restoration at Winterfell, where the wolves will play critical roles in the fight against the Others. 

I suggested in another thread that the Stark reunion won't be without conflict and this is actually necessary to flesh out the importance of familiar love. Ned Stark may well be the actual hero of the story. 

I can't link the thread right now. Search for   the Stark succession crisis and Arya the Unlikely

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I always thought it was a reference to 'Hour of the Wolf', the darkest hour of the night => the Long Night being the time of Starks.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think, that Jon Snow is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, also he will be Dany's third husband, and King of 7K in his own right, as Rhaegar's son, not just as Dany's husband. So when he will become King, he will be using wolves/direwolves as his personal sigil. And his children and descendants will also do the same. So 7K will become kingdom of wolves, not kingdom of dragons, as it was for the last 300 years. For now they even use a golden dragon coins as money of Westeros. But when Jon will become king, they may make golden (or silver) wolves to replace golden dragons. If Sansa will remain as Tyrion's wife, then the Lady of Westerlands will be a wolf/Stark. If Arya will marry with Gendry "Baratheon", and they will rule over Stormlands, then that kingdom will also be inherited by "wolves". Stark girls can also inherit Riverlands and The Vale. Bran and Rickon can marry to someone from The Reach and Dorne. Jon is in King's Landing. Thus all seven kingdoms will be overtaken by Starks - a time for wolves.

I like this but it is almost too easy don't you think? Too idealistic for ASOIAF? Surely they won't all live? But I love the idea.

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Bran will basically ascend to godhood. Jon will conquer KL and have his hour of the wolf, then end the Long Night and die. Arya will become Queen on the Iron Throne. It is their time.

It is also a play on this quote.

Quote

Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me.

On a realm-wide or humanity-wide basis. To survive the Long Night and defeat the others the realm will need to become the one pack, put aside their squabbles, vendettas, rivalries, hate and anger to join as one. Which is what will happen in the last book.

Finally there is not going to be any Targaryen restoration. Targs sacrificed their children to be able to ride dragons, they represent the sacrifice of children for absolute power, their role is to be rejected and extinguished.

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4 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Where did this assumption come from? 

Just look around you in this forum.  Many people suppose such a supposition.

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4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm sorry to disappoint you but there won't be a Targaryen restoration. 

The dude we know as Quentyn Martell will ascend to the throne as Aegon VI.  But ultimately he is not a super-major character, and the final book will not focus on him overmuch.

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"A Time for Wolves" comes from the ancient Norse poem Voluspa: this is one of the final phases of Ragnarok, the end of the World. The phrase in poetry, etc., has been used fairly commonly to describe vile forces taking over as the world or an era ends.

I think George changed it for two reasons: 1) although the Starks are identified with wolves, the wolves at Ragnarok are very much bad guys, so the title is too unambiguous; 2) the original title signals the end, no hope, no coming back from it, and he decided to give us some hope with 'A Dream of Spring' as a title instead.

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2 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

"A Time for Wolves" comes from the ancient Norse poem Voluspa: this is one of the final phases of Ragnarok, the end of the World. The phrase in poetry, etc., has been used fairly commonly to describe vile forces taking over as the world or an era ends.

I think George changed it for two reasons: 1) although the Starks are identified with wolves, the wolves at Ragnarok are very much bad guys, so the title is too unambiguous; 2) the original title signals the end, no hope, no coming back from it, and he decided to give us some hope with 'A Dream of Spring' as a title instead.

I used to think it was a hopeful title. "Dream" and "Spring" are such lovely words.

But a few years ago Winter was very, very bad. I realized that I only dreamed of Spring when Winter was at its worst. When it felt like I hadn't seen proper sun in months. When I went into work when it was dark and left when it was dark. When it felt like it would never end.

I never dreamed of Spring when the days started to get a bit longer, when the air smelled a little different than it had, when the days were a bit brighter. When we started to get balmy high temperatures close to freezing rather than way below. Seeing the change was enough that I didn't need to hope.

It's now an extremely dark title for me telling me how bad it will get which is more consistent with GRRM's warnings of dark, dark times ahead.

 

And @OP, where did you get the idea that the story was about a restoration of anyone or anything?

Edited by Lollygag

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16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I used to think it was a hopeful title. "Dream" and "Spring" are such lovely words.

But a few years ago Winter was very, very bad. I realized that I only dreamed of Spring when Winter was at its worst. When it felt like I hadn't seen proper sun in months. When I went into work when it was dark and left when it was dark. When it felt like it would never end.

I never dreamed of Spring when the days started to get a bit longer, when the air smelled a little different than it had, when the days were a bit brighter. When we started to get balmy high temperatures close to freezing rather than way below. Seeing the change was enough that I didn't need to hope.

It's now an extremely dark title for me telling me how bad it will get which is more consistent with GRRM's warnings of dark, dark times ahead.

 

And @OP, where did you get the idea that the story was about a restoration of anyone or anything?

Well you could certainly see it that way, and in fact without the Ragnarok allusion, a Time for Wolves probably sounds a lot more hopeful in context of the Starks!  But he's writing for posterity, not just for us anymore, so that title with its allusion is too murky.

 

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If Jon is a secret Targaryen then its possible that with Robb's secret will, he'll be legitimized as a "Stark" and once his secret linage is revealed he could get some support behind his claim over the Iron Throne and ascend the throne as a Stark rather than a Targaryen. In this scenario it would be a "time for wolves" as the direwolf banner would be flying over the Red Keep with a Stark on the throne.

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Because "A Dream of Spring" sounds so nice and presumably TWoW will end on a very low note that will leave characters/readers dreaming of spring. 

Also, I don't think there will be a Targ resurgence, and if there is, it will be Aegon, not Dany. Don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of my rationale, but Dany's invasion is doomed. 

GRRM obviously loves the Targs, or at least their past, and (for reasons I don't get) they have tons of fans in the forum, but I just don't see it ending well for Dany. 

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12 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

"A Time for Wolves" comes from the ancient Norse poem Voluspa: this is one of the final phases of Ragnarok, the end of the World. The phrase in poetry, etc., has been used fairly commonly to describe vile forces taking over as the world or an era ends.

I think George changed it for two reasons: 1) although the Starks are identified with wolves, the wolves at Ragnarok are very much bad guys, so the title is too unambiguous; 2) the original title signals the end, no hope, no coming back from it, and he decided to give us some hope with 'A Dream of Spring' as a title instead.

I disagree.  I don't think GRRM is worrying that a significant number of his fans will be discouraged by the associations they draw from their readings of old Norse myths.

I'm not saying the title does not have such an association.  I'm just saying that GRRM is not worried about the association discouraging fans.  I think he knows it would be obscure to most of them.

More plausibly, he thought that "A Time for Wolves" would sound vaguely encouraging to fans of the Starks (which he assumed would be most readers), and keep them reading (regardless of what it actually ended up meaning).

And, of course, "A Dream of Spring" is "better" in the sense that it is vaguely encouraging to fans no matter who they are rooting for.

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A part of me thinks that when/if Jon awakens and if/when he finds out about his parentage, he may choose to disavow claims of the Iron Throne and disregard his Targaryen blood, choosing nurture over nature. He being the catalyst for the destruction of the Iron Throne and the dissolution of the 7 Kingdoms as one nation instead opting for a military alliance of all kingdoms. But who really knows anything at this point. This thing could really go any direction.

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