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3 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

But there’s a space between acting like Tywin or Aerys and not executing traitors that still includes ruling in a better manner.  We have to remember the context of what she’s doing—she’s re-establishing feudal rule over Westeros, not running for election on a progressive platform. And this is a conflict she’s dealing with in real time—can she be different and also be Queen of all of Westeros?  Maybe and maybe not.  But I don’t think executing the Tarly’s precludes her from being better than Tywin or Aerys.

As to your judgment of Jon and Sansa, for example, I think we all hope they will be better rulers as well.  And we believe that they are morally better than the Lannisters or the Mad King, at least.  Yet you are OK with their actions because they’re consistent with prevailing ideas of justice.  

Have you actually read my reply to you. I'm holding Dany's actions then against Dany's speech 5 mins prior to it to the same people. And I pointed out that yes, her first tactic was "running for election". And her speech to her POW was an "election speech" not the "I'm the rightful queen" speech. An election speech isn't an election speech when you burn the men who don't vote for you.

The reason why I do not hold Jon and Sansa to that standard is because they don't give election speeches. They held speeches where they stress their inherited claim. And even if Jon was elected to be LC or KitN, he (nor Sansa) ever pretended to rule for the people. Jon never made such a claim to get elected. And once elected he rules, whether as LC or as KitN, with the feudal power he has.

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4 hours ago, nara said:

I actually think Olenna gave up her rights to the Tarlys’ loyalty by murdering King Joffrey*, to whom both the Tyrells and Tarlys has bent the knee. Transferring their loyalty to the crown seems like a natural thing to do in those circumstances.   

 

*We all hate him, but it was still murder.

Olenna should have gotten the Noble piece prize for killing Joffrey, spare me that argument. 

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22 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Everyone is appalled because of the Sam factor, and then there are those hell-bent on showing Dany is crazy. Fine, then all of westeros is bat-poop crazy as well. Randyll Tarley deserved to die, period. Dickon was just plain stupid, even Randyll wanted him to bend the knee. POW camps did not exist in those days, and though they might take an occasional hostage if he had any strategic value, the soldiers would have been executed had they followed Randyll's lead. The burning saved lives. 

Euhm, the show showed us plenty of POW camps with Robb, including giving medical care to POW.

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I loved the episode. It's great to have a slower paced, warmer episode filled with reunions of characters before shit hits the fan. It grounds everyone and gives us reason to care. I'm glad they took this approach; I can't handle one more dour Jon Snow "I've seen the army of the dead" speech.

The Sam scenes were my favourite of the episode. Aside from Jon Bradley's excellent acting, it really sells the idea that just because everyone minus Cersei and Euron are united against the white walkers, doesn't mean it's going to be all sunshine and roses; these characters all have complicated histories and baggage, and there's no reason everyone in Westeros should welcome Dany as a savior given some of what she's done and what her family has done. I know some people think this is filler, but this is what makes  the show tick for me. I'm looking forward to the inevitable Jon and Dany conflict.

Aside from the Sam scenes, I loved the Arya/Hound/Gendry reunion, the Arya/Jon reunion, the Davos/Varys/Tyrion scene, that ending staredown, and of course, the Tormund/Beric/HOLY FUCK THAT'S CREEPY scene. I'm glad the showrunners seem to be suggesting through the re-use of that symbol that there's something more to the White Walkers than revenge-robots gone out of control; I hope they continue to explore them, and that we finally get some answers about what the hell is going on with the Others after 23 years (though in my case, only 15)  

On the downside, the dragon ride was pretty cheesy. I get why it's there. I'm all for developing the Jon and Dany romance, it's important to show Jon riding a dragon because he will definitely ride one in battle, and Drogon's face as he watched them make out was pretty hilarious. But the scene just didn't click for me.

 

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3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

You mean like other Valyrians? In the Dance of Dragons, all the riders had dragon blood, whether they were trueborn, or bastards.

That is actually up for debate, they were thought to have had dragon blood, but many questioned it. Look a little more into Nettles. The fact is, not many people other than Valaryans have had the chance. Nettles gained the Dragons trust. It looked like for a bit, Tyrion might be headed down that same path. 

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If you're judging by contemporary standards of morality, then yes, the summary burning of two men of rank would be considered bad by other nobles.

And by the standards of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn that was considered bad, without us telling them.

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7 minutes ago, Silyun said:

Hey guys !

I saw that no one mentioned this so what do you think of Drogon staring at Jon when he was with Dany ? I thought that maybe it was Bran's doing but I'm not sure.

Nah, it looked like a dopey dog to me. wouldn't read too much into it.

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18 minutes ago, DanyDayne said:

I agree. She could have easily pretended not to know who Sam's father and brother were. Even made it seem like they died honorably on the battlefield but she didn't do that. She respected him enough to look him in the eye and tell him what she did. She didn't take the easy way and that was admirable I think. 

Well put.  There was a respect to tell him the truth and allow him to process without criticism.  Someone mentioned above regarding Sam's feelings - I don't think it was his dad dying that got him, but his brother.

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I still think the whole thing was clunky, but at least D&D showed it was a set-up for Samwell to put it to Jon.

I agree that I am happy the "burning Tarly shoe" finally dropped.  It has occurred to be that the last few seasons have had the same issue - the plot points aren't necessarily bad, but they lack detail in execution.  For what it is worth, I think the chief problem last season (and, thus, sadly, what I think will be a problem this season) is the decision to make it only 7 episodes.  They could have packed three episodes with dialogue that makes things real: more accurate travel, a dinner scene or two between Jon and Dany, some more scenes with Sansa and Arya and Bran, etc.  I think about the relationships we are invested in - Arya and the Hound, Jaime and Brienne, and those relationships were not made through spectacle but through plodding through the riverlands.  Let's bring back the full length seasons and the plodding. (Obviously, it will never happen now, but I think you all get my point)

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5 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Well put.  There was a respect to tell him the truth and allow him to process without criticism.  Someone mentioned above regarding Sam's feelings - I don't think it was his dad dying that got him, but his brother.

I agree that I am happy the "burning Tarly shoe" finally dropped.  It has occurred to be that the last few seasons have had the same issue - the plot points aren't necessarily bad, but they lack detail in execution.  For what it is worth, I think the chief problem last season (and, thus, sadly, what I think will be a problem this season) is the decision to make it only 7 episodes.  They could have packed three episodes with dialogue that makes things real: more accurate travel, a dinner scene or two between Jon and Dany, some more scenes with Sansa and Arya and Bran, etc.  I think about the relationships we are invested in - Arya and the Hound, Jaime and Brienne, and those relationships were not made through spectacle but through plodding through the riverlands.  Let's bring back the full length seasons and the plodding. (Obviously, it will never happen now, but I think you all get my point)

Well put, I couldn't agree more. A dinner scene doesn't cost much more except time and wages, they already have the actors, the costumes, the sets. Without additional CGI and complicated battles, they could give us a 10 episode season that puts in the details. Most of these reunions are playing out offscreen and it irks somehow.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

Your saying everyone should be in an uproar over the manner of execution. It has been proven that under those conditions, in that time period, most everyone in Dany's position would  have executed Randyll. The argument that beheading is less painful is weak, death is not instantaneous as evryone thinks, rather the fact the vocal cords have been severed not allowing any screams only makes it appear that way. Science has stated that they think (no one has ever volunteered for a study) there would be a period of intense pain for 2-7 seconds, until the brain runs out of oxygen. 

Your also not allowing for the fact that dragon fire is much hotter than normal fire, so it's not like Stannis roasting someone ala barbeque style. The Tarleys died relatively quick. Maybe 7 seconds? So, essentially what your arguing is that Dany's style of execution, because it may last a few more seconds of intense pain, is reason to question her sanity. Randyll Tarley deserved that extra few seconds of pain. 

Ludicrous

Have you ever seen House Bolton's sigil? You know, the flayed man? It didn't stop Robb Stark from allying with the Boltons in the beginning, now did it? Dany showed them more compassion than most. They had two outs. They choose not to take them. 

End of story. 

Do you really want me to pull out the science behind burns?

But, no, I'm not saying everyone should be in an uproar over the manner of execution. And yes, it has been proven that most everyone who sat the IT would execute POW if they refuse to bend the knee. I myself gave several examples. 

As I have posted several times now, I'm holding Dany's actions against her own promises 5 mins prior to it. And then chose to do exactly like Tywin, give a "live or die" choice, and on top of that she did it in the most horrid ways.

What did show-Randyll Tarly do that made him deserve extra few seconds of pain? Because he hunts? Because he's a bigot about wildlings and Dothraki? Because he looks down on Samwell? Hell, the show made him a more decent man than he is in the books, reminding his sons that his wife deserves respect for talking back to him. And even book-Tarly, while abusive to his son and a mysoginist, is someone who makes sure his men don't get away with raping, stealing or making fun of a naive woman.

Dany showed them the same compassion as Tywin showed his POW of the Battle of the Blackwater. End of story.

Edited by sweetsunray

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Do you really want me to pull out the science behind burns?

But, no, I'm not saying everyone should be in an uproar over the manner of execution. And yes, it has been proven that most everyone who sat the IT would execute POW if they refuse to bend the knee. I myself gave several examples. 

As I have posted several times now, I'm holding Dany's actions against her own promises 5 mins prior to it. And then chose to do exactly like Tywin, give a "live or die" choice, and on top of that she did it in the most horrid ways.

What did show-Randyll Tarly do that made him deserve extra few seconds of pain? Because he hunts? Because he's a bigot about wildlings and Dothraki? Because he looks down on Samwell? Hell, the show made him a more decent man than he is in the books, reminding his sons that his wife deserves respect for talking back to him. And even book-Tarly, while abusive to his son and a mysoginist, is someone who makes sure his men don't get away with raping, stealing or making fun of a naive woman.

Dany showed them the same compassion as Tywin showed his POW of the Battle of the Blackwater. End of story.

randyll betrayed ollena and it caused her death. No matter what randyll had to die because he was a traitor lord, a comander of the army and someone who didn t bend the knee.

You might want to argue about dickon. In his case I can see some possibilities of him remaining alive. Randyll not so much

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18 minutes ago, Gogossos said:

Most of these reunions are playing out offscreen and it irks somehow.

Thank you! Yes, it comes across as ingenuinous.

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1 minute ago, divica said:

randyll betrayed ollena and it caused her death. No matter what randyll had to die because he was a traitor lord, a comander of the army and someone who didn t bend the knee.

You might want to argue about dickon. In his case I can see some possibilities of him remaining alive. Randyll not so much

I don't disagree with that reasoning from a strategic POV.

But it still makes Dany a hypocrite in light of the speech she gives 5 mins prior to him and his men. And maybe that was Randyl's point? "Oh, look, here's one who claims she should be queen, because she's a better person than the Lannisters, and will stop being a tyrant. Look what this woman will do, when I don't bend the knee? See, she's just like all the others before her." And sure, they all bent the knee after that, but it sure as hell was not because they believed she would be a great ruler. They did it, because they didn't want to die-by-dragonfire.  

 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

No, your argument of "my modern ideas" doesn't apply. I'm holding Dany against her own promises and aims about herself as ruler.

I'm not arguing that she can't do as Tywin has or Aerys or Cersei... Go ahead Dany. But if she does do it, this contradicts her claim and aim about herself about "breaking the wheel" or "giving them a choice for a better life"... She didn't prove she was better than Tywin. No, she proved she deals with these issues like Tywin Lannister. She proved she is going to keep the wheel going. All choice she gave them was the very classic choice "live or die" (a horrible death). .

 

 

 

Yeah, except no. She gave the Tarleys a choice. And the fact she acted in this one particular instance like other rulers  is not proof positive she will act like the other rulers in all instances, so just stop. Where has it been said that she must do EVERYTHING differently to break the wheel?

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Just now, Error-504 said:

Yeah, except no. She gave the Tarleys a choice. And the fact she acted in this one particular instance like other rulers  is not proof positive she will act like the other rulers in all instances, so just stop. Where has it been said that she must do EVERYTHING differently to break the wheel?

The choice is join me or I burn you to death. No other options. No Night's Watch, no imprisonment in a cell for two weeks. What a choice that is!

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Eh, I wouldn't exactly say that.  She delivered the information without sugar coating it, or allowing him to find out for himself.  She gave him leave when he asked politely for some time for composure.  Matter of fact, to the point, yes.  But I thought she delivered the news as well as one could in that circumstance.

I hope Dany doesn't go dark. I would be very disappointed.  I mentioned in another thread though, that I think this will be a turning point toward the light.  She started out in such a powerless position that it is physically revolting for her to be seen as weak or compromising, so she does these displays of strength that verge on terrible.  Now, she is being forced to reckon with how displays of strength can be a weakness, too, and I think she will temper with mercy going forth.

She has two major events coming up to show us. 

First will be how she deals with Jamie in the next episode. If she shows him mercy, and states his killing of her father was justified, it go's a long way to showing the Northern Lords she is in fact different. This could be her out in the current situation she is in. 

Second will be how she handles the news that Jon is the legitimate heir. 

The verdict on Dany is far from decided, these two things will show us a lot. 

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1 minute ago, Caligula_K3 said:

The choice is join me or I burn you to death. No other options. No Night's Watch, no imprisonment in a cell for two weeks. What a choice that is!

The Tarly's were offered the choice of the nights watch and they flat out refused. 

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Just now, Caligula_K3 said:

The choice is join me or I burn you to death. No other options. No Night's Watch, no imprisonment in a cell for two weeks. What a choice that is!

Tyrion brought up the Night’s Watch. Randyll refused. 

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Just now, Error-504 said:

Yeah, except no. She gave the Tarleys a choice. And the fact she acted in this one particular instance like other rulers  is not proof positive she will act like the other rulers in all instances, so just stop. Where has it been said that she must do EVERYTHING differently to break the wheel?

She gives the classical choice: bend the knee or die.

OMG, don't you get what she did to those men who had surrendered their arms to her? She gives this whole over-the-rainbow-speech to them, making herself out to be better and different than all the other kings and queens before her, and because not everybody buys it, she burns them right in front of those men she promised to be different. What do you think went through the minds of those men who bent the knee?

"See, there we have a saviour!" or "Same old, same old."

 

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