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silverwolf22

thoughts on the theory by indeepgeek that littlefinger witnessed lyanna willingly go with rhaegar and was the one who told brandon that rhaegar kidnapped lyanna a

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3 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

Thread title:  thoughts on the theory by indeepgeek that littlefinger witnessed lyanna willingly go with rhaegar and was the one who told brandon that rhaegar kidnapped lyanna a

 

Did not read the link.

For some odd reason I am under the impression Littlefinger was home in the Fingers recovering from wounds Brandon gave him.

:blush: I may be wrong bout that.

Please share why you like the theory you linked.

Thanks.

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I haven't clicked the link and your title is just way way long.

I used to think Littlefinger told Brandon he saw something, but after thinking of it more, I doubt it. 

For one it seems like LF might have been back at the Fingers. And for another Brandon was not traveling alone. He had other men with him. There were those who were killed by Aerys, and there's the one who was kept alive in the black cells. 

What reason does Brandon have to trust LF? He doesn't like the guy. And wouldn't he have told his companions where he heard this kidnapping news from? 

And if he did, wouldn't that be the first thing Ethan Glover would tell Ned once he is freed. He is the only one who survived and would supposedly be the one who would know where this news of Lyanna's kidnapping came from, no? 

If LF is involved, he might have paid someone to find Brandon and tell him whatever. Otherwise, I don't think he was involved at all. 

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18 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

What reason does Brandon have to trust LF?

This, in a nutshell. 

So, to the op, nope. 

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The basic idea is a very old one in the fandom, though I couldn't say who first originated it. It was probably on this forum in one of its earlier iterations.

As for whether it's true, I don't think so, no. We know Lyanna was taken/eloped from near Harrenhal, and we know Brandon was on his way to Riverrun. As I've speculated before, Lyanna had likely stayed on as a guest of the Whents while Brandon collected his wedding party. If he rode ahead of the column with a few buddies to hang out with his sister, only to learn that Rhaegar had absconded with her... well, you see how it would have fallen out, and without outside intervention being necessary. 

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Can we please stop with the idea that Littlefinger is responsible for everything? Littlefinger would have been, like, twenty when that happened. 

Littlefinger is a shitty guy who’s clever but constantly hung up on Catelyn’s rejection of him. He has good connections, but all he wants as an endgame is him and Cat together. 

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Such a dick move would certainly fit Littlefinger's modus operandi, but George already used that ploy with the Lysa letter and with Arkin Ruark back in DotL - and he fooled me both times.

But since the duel must have been before the abduction chances are very high that Petyr was either still recovering in Riverrun or had already been shipped back the Fingers. In either case he wouldn't have been able to hang out/witness/find out anything about Lyanna Stark, nor would he been in any shape to contact Brandon about.

If he did, though, I'm pretty sure he could have fooled him ;-). Some people don't need additional rope to hang themselves, though. They can do that all by themselves.

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4 hours ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Can we please stop with the idea that Littlefinger is responsible for everything? Littlefinger would have been, like, twenty when that happened. 

Littlefinger was 15 and he has been sent back to Fingers after being wounded by Brandon on the duel.

 

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8 hours ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Can we please stop with the idea that Littlefinger is responsible for everything? Littlefinger would have been, like, twenty when that happened. 

Littlefinger is a shitty guy who’s clever but constantly hung up on Catelyn’s rejection of him. He has good connections, but all he wants as an endgame is him and Cat together. 

It’s worse, I think he was ~ 13?

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I was one of the people who posited the theory here on the forums, years ago. It was not "LF the mastermind of everything", it was modelled ater Cat's chance meeting with Tyrion - on his way back to the Fingers, LF witnessed or heard about Lyanna's "abduction", and then he encountered Brandon looking for her. Due to their history, he pricked Brandon's pride with some comment (someone came up with "Lyanna is spreading her legs for Rhaegar like Cat did for me"), which made Brandon go ballistic and ride to KL without thinking it through. Seeing what a single comment could lead to kicked off Petyr's future career as a schemer and manipulator.

- Well. Back then we mostly had fun theorizing why the hell Brandon went to KL when it wasn't very reasonable to expect Rhaegar there, so it seems Brandon may have been misinformed, perhaps even on purpose. The top list of people playing such games happens to feature the one guy who had beef with Brandon, so this was an attempt to try and make LF fit. I like the theory but am not wed to it, especially as recently, someone ( @Bael's Bastard?) came up with a more elegant one - the desinformation may have come from Rhaegar himself, just like Cat stated plain and loud that she was taking Tyrion to Winterfell. If that's the case, it was one hell of a backfire.

Edited by Ygrain

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15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For some odd reason I am under the impression Littlefinger was home in the Fingers recovering from wounds Brandon gave him.

He was sent away from Riverrun either one or two weeks after the duel. So it's likely, that he was at the Crossroads Inn, still on his way to The Vale, when Lyanna and Rhaegar were passing there. Lyanna was supposed to turn left after that intersection, and to go west towards Riverrun, instead she continued to go south. If the Crossroads Inn is located ten ligues from Harrenhal, then that's where Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna (or rather she went with him willingly, and they even agreed beforehand, that that's where Rhaegar will be waiting fo her, when she will be on her way to Brandon's wedding). Littelfinger saw them, and when a bit later Brandon also arrived there, he told him, that Lyanna was here and she was kidnapped by Rhaegar, who was intending to take her to King's Landing. So that may be the reason, why Brandon thought, that Rhaegar was at KL. And a letter, that Littlefinger wrote to Catelyn after Brandon's death, could have been his confession, that he lied about what he witnessed. Maybe he wrote, that he just wanted to cause problems for Brandon, wanted to delay his wedding with Catelyn, and wasn't thinking, that it would cause death for both Brandon and Cat's father, and will start a war. So in that letter he was apologising, for what he did. Maybe.

Edited by Megorova

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12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He was sent away from Riverrun either one or two weeks after the duel. So it's likely, that he was at the Crossroads Inn, still on his way to The Vale, when Lyanna and Rhaegar were passing there. Lyanna was supposed to turn left after that intersection, and to go west towards Riverrun, instead she continued to go south. If the Crossroads Inn is located ten ligues from Harrenhal, then that's where Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna (or rather she went with him willingly, and they even agreed beforehand, that that's where Rhaegar will be waiting fo her, when she will be on her way to Brandon's wedding). Littelfinger saw them, and when a bit later Brandon also arrived there, he told him, that Lyanna was here and she was kidnapped by Rhaegar, who was intending to take her to King's Landing. So that may be the reason, why Brandon thought, that Rhaegar was at KL. And a letter, that Littlefinger wrote to Catelyn after Brandon's death, could have been his confession, that he lied about what he witnessed. Maybe he wrote, that he just wanted to cause problems for Brandon, wanted to delay his wedding with Catelyn, and wasn't thinking, that it would cause death for both Brandon and Cat's father, and will start a war. So in that letter he was apologising, for what he did. Maybe.

the theory that in deep geek  made was that brandon was angry at littlefinger  ( and possibly knew about cats sister  ) and attacked him and LF said what he could to live and divert brandons anger to someone else 

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Brandon left Riverrun after the duel, and was on his way back to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna. Littlefinger wasn't strong enough to leave Riverrun for a fortnight after the duel, after which Lord Hoster sent him away in a closed litter.

I don't see any reason to believe that Petyr witnessed or was privy to anything to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna, and I don't see why Brandon would listed to him if he claimed to be.

The claim that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna is believed by people on all sides (pro-Robert, pro-Rhaegar/Targaryens, Maesters of the Citadel), and isn't dependent on someone like Littlefinger witnessing the truth and then twisting it into a lie to manipulate Brandon.

Furthermore, I don't see Littlefinger surviving a post-duel face to face with Brandon.

My own theory is that, Like Catelyn in her abduction of Tyrion, Rhaegar himself intentionally misled witnesses to his abduction of Lyanna to believe that he was going to be taking her to the Red Keep.

Granted, this theory doesn't preclude Petyr from being among those witnesses, and doesn't really attempt to determine from whose mouth Brandon heard the news. I don't think he need have heard it from the mouth of any special source to have the reaction he had. It could have been a Stark household witness/survivor to the abduction, or a Whent household witness, or any number of nobles, knights, or commoners who witnessed the abduction.

Brandon had already lost to Rhaegar at Harrenhal, perhaps even come face to face to ransom his stuff after losing, and had to be restrained when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna queen of love and beauty. He didn't need to hear that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna from an old foe he had recently almost killed to have the reaction he had.

It's not that Petyr wouldn't have been capable as a fifteen year old of trying to rub something like that in Brandon's face, or trying to manipulate him with such information. It's that Petyr's involvement isn't necessary to explain Brandon's reaction, and it is a huge stretch to think that the prevailing belief among all factions in Westeros (that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, whether with bad intentions or good intentions) stems anything witnessed by and/or relayed by Littlefinger.

 

 

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Lyanna was Brandon's little baby sister, good, pure, saint, like all baby sisters are for their big brothers. Even if Lyanna left a letter saying: "I am running away with Rhaegar because he is cute and lovely!!!111oneoneone" Brandon would think adult married Rhaegar brainwashed her and abducted her, forsed his saint baby sister to write this lying letter. He would never believe his smart, noble, faithful baby sister would run away with married father of two.

So, no. Brandon didn't need any lying Littlefingers to believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. 

Littlefinger, lord Whent, Rickard Stark or even Holy Mother Above herself might say to Brandon it was Lyanna who took away Rhaegar on swordpoint, Brandon would think it was married adult rapist Rhaegar who kidnapped her. 

Edited by DanaKz

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I think there are a number of things wrong with the theory the OP linked. I first and foremost don't think we need a witness, although there undoubtably was someone, to understand Brandon's, and Robert's reaction as well, to believe Lyanna was kidnapped. We know whatever happened, it happened at sword point.

Quote

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. (ADwD  577) bold emphasis added

By which we know the Targaryen side of the tale agrees that force was at least threatened to get Lyanna to be able to go with Rhaegar. We don't know at whom the "sword points" were pointed, but swords were certainly drawn. This makes it much easier to understand why Brandon may have thought Lyanna was taken by force, but it is also unnecessary for Brandon to have gotten any such report for him to believe Lyanna was kidnapped. Brandon doesn't need the fifteen-year-old Petyr Baelish, or anyone else, to tell him a lie to believe this is true. He knows it to be true because he knows Lyanna has been pledge by their father to marry Robert.

If we know anything about the breaking of Westerosi marriage contracts, we know that this isn't simply a question of what the individuals want. These are almost always solemn contracts, negotiated between houses, not the individuals involved, and have the reputations and expectations of each house behind them. Lyanna was "kidnapped" in Brandon's, Rickard's, Robert's, and probably Ned's point of view because she had no right to not follow through on Rickard's word and contract with Robert. 

How many instances of this do we have to be shown by Martin to know in his world this just isn't done without enormous and deadly consequences? No, there is no need for a liar to tell the lie to Brandon, because he doesn't care enough about what his sister wants to support her in breaking a Stark's promised word. If the Red Wedding isn't enough to show us what happens when a marriage contract is broken, what more do we need?

So, my biggest problem with the linked theory is there is no need to explain why Brandon reacted the way he did. He doesn't need a lie to explain it. It's explained by his character and by the entire history of broken Westerosi marriages. Littlefinger is totally unnecessary and a throughly untrustworthy candidate to make Brandon believe anything. That doesn't mean someone did not tell Brandon the news of the kidnapping. Someone did, and that someone did not have to lie to get Brandon to react in the way he did.

There are times I think we try to make things way too complicated. This is one of them. Lyanna is in the Riverlands when the "kidnapping" occurs. It should be our expectations that she was with companions, including guards to travel with her. If we want to put a name to one of these guards, then let's use Martyn Cassel as a likely name, but it could be any of a number of Winterfell guards or guards from another lord in charge of Lyanna's safety. If Jory's father was the guard on duty in this instance what would he do after the Prince of Dragonstone and two Kingsguard took Lyanna away at sword point? He would look to tell the news as quickly as possible to the Starks as he could. That means riding towards Riverrun where he likely knows Brandon is, or last was, and meeting Brandon's party on the road. No lie need be told. Only the facts. Brandon's rage and reaction is then completely within what we know of the "Wild Wolf."

I do like the idea @Bael's Bastard has come up with of Rhaegar and Company leaving a false trail to King's Landing much like Catelyn does with Tyrion fifteen years later with her loud proclamations of taking him to Winterfell.

 

Edited by SFDanny

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19 hours ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Can we please stop with the idea that Littlefinger is responsible for everything? Littlefinger would have been, like, twenty when that happened. 

Littlefinger is a shitty guy who’s clever but constantly hung up on Catelyn’s rejection of him. He has good connections, but all he wants as an endgame is him and Cat together. 

And complete power lol. Don't forget all the power.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

I think there are a number of things wrong with the theory the OP linked. I first and foremost don't think we need a witness, although there undoubtably was someone, to understand Brandon's, and Robert's reaction as well, to believe Lyanna was kidnapped. We know whatever happened, it happened at sword point

Do we really know this?  It’s a tale told to Dany by Viserys, presumably, and who knows where Viserys got his information from.  Some singer perhaps?  Tales always seem to grow in the telling.

But however Lyanna was spirited away, Ned seems to lay at least part of the blame on Lyanna, when he comments that Lyanna’s wolfs Blood led her to an early grave.  I’m not sure that Ned would have necessarily come to that conclusion if Lyanna had been carried off by sword point.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Lyanna is in the Riverlands when the "kidnapping" occurs. It should be our expectations that she was with companions, including guards to travel with her.

Why would we expect guards to be traveling with Lyanna?  When Ned and his daughters traveled from Winterfell to King’s Landing Arya was running around unsupervised all the time.  Why would it be any different for Lyanna?

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