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The books are not going to end like this

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

This is not correct. He gave them more than three plot points. Hodor, Shireen and one other were merely three different things that GRRM told D&D that made them say WTF. And the third one happens at the end of the series, so it would not be Littlefinger.

George told them how the major characters stories' end as well as the overall ending. He did not tell them how some minor characters end up as he said he didn't know that himself. But they discussed a lot. Now whether D&D follow that to a T is open for discussion, but George did say so himself that the stories will end up mostly the same.

So while how they end up getting there may be different, where the main characters end up will likely be the same results in the books.

But it's completely moot anyway as we're not getting an ending to the books ever.

Well, he said broad strokes, what that means could be anything. Who lives and dies, who is on the iron throne, that isn't really telling us much. And they could very well change that, too.

There's a lot more to a story than that. I never thought there would be happy endings, but I did care about the character journeys, and they've made so many huge changes, it's not the same story.

Also the show isn't even consistent within itself, there are lots of continuity issues.

He's said various things, and he goes back and forth the way he says them. Here's a recent interview:

The ending of the show – to what extent is it your ending?

I can say that when my next two books come out they’ll have to read them and then they can find out...

And have you seen this final season?

No, I haven’t. I haven’t … I mean I know some of what’s going on there, but I haven’t actually seen any footage. So I’ll be seeing that for the first time with everybody else.

But have you read the final scripts for the season, or have you detached yourself?

No, I haven’t read the scripts, although I’ve had meetings with David and Dan where we’ve discussed stuff.

So you’re gonna be somewhat surprised by their ending then, perhaps …

Well, to a degree. I mean, I think … the major points of the ending will be things that I told them, you know, five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-on-the-stark-sisters-and-ending-game-of-thrones-813890/

Edited by Le Cygne

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3 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

- Sansa will cause LF's downfall (not sure if she'll kill him) but in a way it will make sense

Chances are pretty high, in my opinion, that Petyr will be in the game until the very end, even after the Others are defeated. He may be exposed for what he is and lose his hold over Sansa and all, but I really doubt that George's Littlefinger is going to be killed or captured even if he is outmaneuvered. A man as smart as he is must have an exit strategy for pretty much any worst case scenario. In that sense, I could see him coming back with a vengeance the sort of Cersei is doing in the show right now.

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- at least one of the dragons die and is wighted

No, that they just did for the image of the dragons fighting each other. In the books there is supposed to be a Second Dance of the Dragons, so we will likely get something of that there if Euron or Aegon become a dragonrider for some time. With there not being a head Other leading from the front there would be literally no use for an undead dragon. Not to mention that there is literally no chance that a dragon who is transformed into a wight - which are basically slow zombies - is going to be able to fly afterwards.

I don't recall it right now, but as far as know we never saw an undead bird to this point, either. There might be some such but if there are they are exactly of any use considering that they, too, are not likely to be able to fly.

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- Winterfell is where the big battle takes place

A big battle perhaps. But not the big battle. 

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- Mel won't burn Shireen and Shireen will survive the story

Most definitely not. Stannis is going to authorize the burning of his daughter.

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- Mel will genuinly have an important role in the outcome of war against undead

Could be, but in the books there will be other red priests coming with Dany, not to mention that Thoros is still around there, too. Mel may not last until the finale. She is, after all, wrong in her interpretation of the prophecy and this might also be her personal undoing.

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- Varys won't join Dany. The same thing goes for the Tyrells.

Oh, I don't know, it depends how things develop. There are so many Tyrells around that some might certainly join Dany. And neither Aegon nor Varys seem to be stupid enough to continue a war with Dany when the Others finally come down...

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uncertain / partly true:

- Cersei might become the queen somehow but she'll sink deep into madness

She will hook up with Euron and he might sit the Iron Throne at one point, possibly they are going to use the opportunity to seize power in KL while everybody sane is fighting the Others. But Cersei herself is never going to sit the Iron Throne or ruling in her own right.

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- Dany burning the khals

Oh, she is somehow taking over the Dothraki, but I doubt she will have to burn a lot of them.

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- Arya will leave the Faceless Men but only after they send her to kill one of her familly members or something like that

I expect them to give her and the returned Jaqen the mission to kill Dany and her dragons. And she is not going to do that when she is there.

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- Cersei will try to get a revenge against the high Sparrow and the Tyrells but I don't think it will this easy and I doubt all the Tyrells will be extinct, after all Margaery had at least one another brother who was in High Garden

If Cersei will get any revenge here it will have to happen much later. Right now, the Tyrells are in charge and Aegon will take the Iron Throne soon. Cersei will have to flee or she is going to be captured and/or killed.

 

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16 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

This is not correct. He gave them more than three plot points. Hodor, Shireen and one other were merely three different things that GRRM told D&D that made them say WTF. And the third one happens at the end of the series, so it would not be Littlefinger. 

 

The third might then be that certain event that will happen according to certain leaks...

Spoiler

i.e. Jon killing Dany.

 

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16 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

This is not correct. He gave them more than three plot points. Hodor, Shireen and one other were merely three different things that GRRM told D&D that made them say WTF. And the third one happens at the end of the series, so it would not be Littlefinger.

Considering the fact that those guys are pretty thick, one could see Cersei's death being this third WTF moment. After all, with Jaime finally detaching himself from Cersei chances are pretty high that they will have Jaime kill Cersei in the show.

Don't see any potential for any other WTF moment there.

The fact that George told those people some stuff doesn't allow us to just assume they would follow his suggestions - because they were never anything but suggestions. He has sold the property. They can (and did) do whatever the hell they want.

 

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5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, he said broad strokes, what that means could be anything. Who lives and dies, who is on the iron throne, that isn't really telling us much. And they could very well change that, too.

There's a lot more to a story than that. I never thought there would be happy endings, but I did care about the character journeys, and they've made so many huge changes, it's not the same story.

Also the show isn't even consistent within itself, there are lots of continuity issues.

He's said various things, and he goes back and forth the way he says them. Here's a recent interview:

The ending of the show – to what extent is it your ending?

I can say that when my next two books come out they’ll have to read them and then they can find out...

And have you seen this final season?

No, I haven’t. I haven’t … I mean I know some of what’s going on there, but I haven’t actually seen any footage. So I’ll be seeing that for the first time with everybody else.

But have you read the final scripts for the season, or have you detached yourself?

No, I haven’t read the scripts, although I’ve had meetings with David and Dan where we’ve discussed stuff.

So you’re gonna be somewhat surprised by their ending then, perhaps …

Well, to a degree. I mean, I think … the major points of the ending will be things that I told them, you know, five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/george-r-r-martin-on-the-stark-sisters-and-ending-game-of-thrones-813890/

Yeah, I agree. That was kind of what I indicated in my second to last sentence. I still think the main characters' endings will be similar or the same between show and book. It's how they get there that will be different. And I agree that the journey is more important than the ending, and how much D&D have changed the characters makes many of them unrecognizable between show and book.

But it will still be moot as George won't finish. He cares too much about blogging about football.

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3 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Yeah, I agree. That was kind of what I indicated in my second to last sentence. I still think the main characters' endings will be similar or the same between show and book. It's how they get there that will be different. And I agree that the journey is more important than the ending, and how much D&D have changed the characters makes many of them unrecognizable between show and book.

But it will still be moot as George won't finish. He cares too much about blogging about football.

I always thought it was possible that a new NK would appear in the books, and I'm not sure that won't happen, but either way, most of what happened in the last episode isn't going to happen in the books, because no final battle will happen at WF and most of those people will never go to WF, so it becomes only a base extrapolation... of things we already knew, that the Others will eventually be defeated, Theon will die somehow in service to the Starks, beyond that the show cowardly refused to kill anyone in that episode, so  I do expect many more deaths in the next 3 episodes which makes the show even stupider than it already was. I certainly hope the Dothraki don't die as a people because they followed Dany to Westeros.

 

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

She will. This was one of the three "what the fck" moments given by GRRM to DD.

While Shireen will die (burnt alive on a pyre), we actually don't know who is going to burn Princess Shireen and why. King Stannis is far away from Shireen and he is otherwise preoccupied. Melisandre, although nearby, is also a bit busy. At this point, there is absolutely no way Stannis is going to give the command to have his only heir -- and probably the only person alive that he loves -- sacrificed to the red god...especially not for something as trivial as the weather. And Melisandre is unlikely to do anything of that magnitude without Stannis' express permission or tacit approval. At this point, she still thinks Stannis is the Chosen One.

However, Queen Selyse and her men worship the red god and they are borderline zealots. Worse than Melisandre because at least Melisandre has some kind of understanding of what she is doing and why she is doing it. Selyse and her guard have absolutely no clue. Selyse doesn't even like Shireen either.

Also, we have to remember that Shireen is at Castle Black and Jon just got assassinated their by his own men. Obviously, those same men have proved themselves to be capable of anything. So, there is going to be abject chaos at Castle Black for a while.

3 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

You're very right that in the books there are several plots (Dorne with Doran, Arianne and Sand Snakes, Young Griff, Victarion, Euron too, unCat, Jeyne Westerling) which are big unknowns and can (and probably will) shake up the things a lot. 

anyway, what I think that will happen in the books:

- Jon's resurrection but potentially at the cost of Ghost's life

- Jon is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son

- the Hound is alive

- Hold the door, one way or another

- Sansa will cause LF's downfall (not sure if she'll kill him) but in a way it will make sense

- Tyrion helping Dany (iirc he hasn't met her yet in the books)

- at least one of the dragons die and is wighted

- the Wall crumbles down

- Winterfell is where the big battle takes place

- the bodies in the crypts will be wighted

- Euron joins Cersei

- Theon will die while defending a Stark

- Daenerys will sail to Westeros one day

- Sansa will marry an abusive man or a generally unmanageable man who humiliates her on a regular basis per Littlefinger's suggestion/manipulation

 

what I think won't happen in the books:

- Ramsay won't kill Osha and Rickon

- Mel won't burn Shireen

- Mel will genuinly have an important role in the outcome of war against undead

- Varys won't join Dany. The same thing goes for the Tyrells.

- Tormund and Brienne, lol

- if Stannis dies he will not be executed by Brienne

 

uncertain / partly true:

- Cersei might become the queen somehow but she'll sink deep into madness

- Dany burning the khals

- Arya will leave the Faceless Men but only after they send her to kill one of her familly members or something like that

- Arya might kill the biggest baddest Other if there is any - I thought that it could be Jaime but I think that he'll kill Cersei so maybe it'll be Arya after all. Or it could be Jon.

- maybe Arya and Gendry will end up together but not like this

- Cersei will try to get a revenge against the high Sparrow and the Tyrells but I don't think it will this easy and I doubt all the Tyrells will be extinct, after all Margaery had at least one another brother who was in High Garden

 

no freaking idea:

- Stannis defeated by Boltons

- Bran

- Dany + Jon

 

(I might come up with more things later)

 

I'm about to make my own list but I agree with many of yours.

1 hour ago, The Unborn said:

Geez, we all know things won't go the way they went in the show, that's a given, but just because you did not like something does not mean it won't happen in some shape or form in the books.  For all we know, the show could end exactly like the book for the broad strokes, but if GRRM decides to change the ending because of the fans reaction no one will be the wiser and you will all claim GRRM had a better ending and D & D were hacks.

But they are hacks.

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There's also no reason to believe that a lot of the White Walkers and their undead legions won't walk right around Winterfell and invade the south. It's not like the people at Winterfell could do anything about it considering that they would be fighting for their own lives.

I just refuse to believe that the Others will not be a problem for anyone south of the Neck. I refuse to believe it. The Others and their army of the dead and the monstrous should absolutely be a problem...from Oldtown to Skagos.

And there's also the not-so-small matter of the Lands of Always Winter and the Heart of Winter itself. Bran saw something there that made him cry. Something that made him want to live and be the Three-Eyed Raven

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3 hours ago, Wagshell said:

Let's be honest with ourselves here. GRRM will not be finishing any more books in this series.

If any more are published, his work will be finished by another writer and then who knows what we can expect.

I agree. And to be honest AFFC was a drop off and Dance was even worse. The books were trending down. 

It's possible GRRM has no idea how to tie it all up and stick the landing and maybe doesn't even really care anymore. 

And there are many questions that might not ever be answered. 

I enjoyed the books. But the 70 year old author is taking 10 years between books. 

Odds are not good we see the end written. 

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10 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

 

There's also no reason to believe that a lot of the White Walkers and their undead legions won't walk right around Winterfell and invade the south. It's not like the people at Winterfell could do anything about it considering that they would be fighting for their own lives.

I just refuse to believe that the Others will not be a problem for anyone south of the Neck. I refuse to believe it. The Others and their army of the dead and the monstrous should absolutely be a problem...from Oldtown to Skagos.

And there's also the not-so-small matter of the Lands of Always Winter and the Heart of Winter itself. Bran saw something there that made him cry. Something that made him want to live and be the Three-Eyed Raven

I agree, I understand why the show did it at WF, but having the final battle be at WF makes all of the Southern scoffing about the North and grumpkins and snarks to be the right attitude, so the Others have to make it south of the neck, the final battle in the books that aren't being written will almost surely be in the Riverlands, like Dany's dream. 

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1 hour ago, Umber Jack said:

The NK and his army were made too powerful and too weak at the same time: there was no way out, and it will be difficult for GRRM to do any better. The previous "long night" is supposed to have lasted "for one generation", and this was what many of us were hoping for: a serious threat, but also a part of the circle of life, the pendulum swinging to the other side. Fire and ice, life and death. The NK not just a Bond villain/video game boss but a necessity.
But seeing just how powerful the show-WW were, this would not have been possible: they were too strong, had they won that battle, all Westeros would have been killed within weeks.
Maybe even GRRM did not think that part through: Zombies/wights mean strength in numbers, they quickly become ever more powerful - contrary to individual monsters, i.e. WW roaming the icy lands and killing the population over a long period of time.

I've been wondering the same thing.  All this hype for one battle when previously it was a generation. Only way I can come to terms (outside of the book stories being told generations later) is that there was no Wall before our current battle.  So, we've had 8 years now of the WWs attacking and killing the NightsWatch and Wildings.  Nothing to suggest that this has not been going on for some time and the Wall simply held it back longer than previously.  Just my thoughts on how to reconcile the books/show with how the Long Night" battle played out in the show and will later in the books

 

Also, in terms of the show, does this mean the Old Gods are as useless as the New Gods?  The Red priests are the only religion we have seen preaching about the "long nigh," and actually backed that up with assisting (Thoros and Red Preist).  Bran (who is working with the Old Gods) did absolutely nothing in the actual battle (unless you're sticking with Bran setting the stage for Arya to actually kill the NK but I don't see how that works).

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Wagshell said:

Let's be honest with ourselves here. GRRM will not be finishing any more books in this series.

If any more are published, his work will be finished by another writer and then who knows what we can expect.

This^^

He's too busy doing 'other projects' to ever finish the series. At the rate he's going he will be about 86 when he finishes the series and I doubt he lives that long (hope I'm wrong of course in all of this!)

Edited by Sonoftheharpie

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree, I understand why the show did it at WF, but having the final battle be at WF makes all of the Southern scoffing about the North and grumpkins and snarks to be the right attitude, so the Others have to make it south of the neck, the final battle in the books that aren't being written will almost surely be in the Riverlands, like Dany's dream. 



Yep.

My guess is that it will happen somewhere near Harrenhal.

Everything horrific or bad that has happened in Westeros has either happened at Harrenhal or involved Harrenhal. The Isle of Faces is right there and High Heart isn't too far either.

But then I think about it and I question it. Harrenhal is southernly enough to make all of Westeros pause. But it's fairly close to King's Landing and if GRRM wants to outdo the Scouring of the Shire moment with Team Euron/Cersei overthrowing what's left of Team Aegon and taking them the Iron Throne, then how can Cersei (Euron is the type to not give a f---) be so unbothered with such a big battle taking place so close to them.

But then I remember that she was spazzing out just before the Battle of the Blackwater and spent most of the actual battle getting wasted, being extra spiteful and sabotaging her own army.

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15 minutes ago, Sonoftheharpie said:

This^^

He's too busy doing 'other projects' to ever finish the series. At the rate he's going he will be about 86 when he finishes the series and I doubt he lives that long (hope I'm wrong of course in all of this!)

I'd say he will deliver an "ending" of sorts in a future "Fire and blood" volume. But will be no multi POV narrative novel...

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2 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

I don’t think this story has anything to do with climate change. That’s just some idiot’s interpretation somehow trying to make the story something it is not. 

That 'idiot' is actually GRRM.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Which means the Azor Ahai stuff doesn't matter much. If it was plot integral they would have been told and stuck with it

Yep. No Night King in the book. But I think the issue is the end of the others and their defeat being at the hands of Arya, Night King or no. 

What doesn't make sense to me though (Books and Show) is that R'hllor, is an Essos diety. His followers live in Essos. His enemy the Great Other (?) is somehow related to the Others who are in the North end of Westeros. Faaaaar away. ?? Or not. 

And according to the history and/or prophecy Azor Ahai thousands of years ago fought the others and won, possibly? Or something else?  And where? And who was he? A Stark? A Targaryan? Did he have an army? Was he even Westerosi or from Essos?

Because what makes more sense is Azor Ahai never had anything to do with the others and it's an Essos myth. And according to the myth the whole world was dark. So if it was Others the dead were everywhere and the Long Night had come? Makes no sense. 

In the TV show we have this great battle against the Others and only one priestess of R'hllor bothers to show up. Lol . They just seem to not know or care. 

Or only Melisandre and her supporters believed Azor Ahai was connected to the Westeros others. 

Even In the books too the red god's followers are pretty much all in Essos ignoring the threat in the North and happily oblivious to the return of the Others a continent away and the impending Long Night. 

None of it makes any sense to me other than it's all a myth but helped to get Mellisandre involved and she actually had power which helped them win. 

So maybe the show was wise to wrap up this plotline in a little bow and can it. 

Edited by #teamNightking
Sp.

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4 hours ago, Wagshell said:

Let's be honest with ourselves here. GRRM will not be finishing any more books in this series.

If any more are published, his work will be finished by another writer and then who knows what we can expect.

Yes, we will have Winds as it is on the final stage of production but I really doubt we'll get the last book written by Martin's hand.

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30 minutes ago, Sonoftheharpie said:

This^^

He's too busy doing 'other projects' to ever finish the series. At the rate he's going he will be about 86 when he finishes the series and I doubt he lives that long (hope I'm wrong of course in all of this!)

It's not just that he's slow either. I would imagine he's severely undermotivated. He's already a very wealthy man. All of his fans have now moved their attention mostly to the Tv series. Whatever he does with the story will be roundly criticised because people have predicted it all over the internet, or because it's not the better ending they had in their minds. It's much more rewarding for him to work on other projects where he can take it wherever he pleases.

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