Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[MinscS2]

5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

As far as I'm concerned, after Dany and her team of idiots (including Tyrion and Jon) are the ones responsible for bringing down the wall, it's also their freaking responsibility to stop it more than anyone elses. If they weren't involved with the WWs crossing into Westeros, it would be a different situation and then I could understand why people have issues with how Sansa and everyone else reacted to Dany & Co.. But that's not the story. Team Dany created this mess, they are obligated to clean it up.

Don't forget Bran, his panicky raven-scroll about the AotD marching on Eastwatch-by-the-Sea was what ultimately set the whole thing in motion.

And genuinely, no one in-universe really know how the AotD broke trough the wall (we do, but the characters don't, except for Bran) at first, so Sansa's "it's your mess, fix it yourself"-attitude makes no sense unless she's omniscient (which she isn't).
Bran told them about UnViserion when they arrived at Winterfell, but he never told them how the AotD broke trough.
Edd and Tormund probably told Jon when they arrived in Ep2, but by that time, Sansa had been throwing shade at Daenerys for a whole episode.

It doesn't make sense, because the writing is bad. It's as simple (and sad) as that.

[Mystical]

4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

And genuinely, no one in-universe really know how the AotD broke trough the wall (we do, but the characters don't, except for Bran) at first, so Sansa's "it's your mess, fix it yourself"-attitude makes no sense unless she's omniscient (which she isn't).
Bran told them about UnViserion when they arrived at Winterfell, but he never told them how the AotD broke trough.
Edd and Tormund probably told Jon when they arrived in Ep2, but by that time, Sansa had been throwing shade at Daenerys for a whole episode.

But that doesn't matter since the audience continues to argue from an audience perspective. So many people deny that it's Team Idiots fault and continue to argue about Dany and her armies helping (and Sansa+North being ungrateful) and willfully ignoring why the army of the dead is even in Westeros to begin with. If people were to simply argue from a characters only perspective, then fine. But that's not the reality of most discussions.

So many people have said 'well if Sansa and the North are so effing ungrateful, Dany should just take her armies and leave'. I have seen this literally a thousand times. Granted most of it came from Dany lovers. Yet they were fully aware of how the wall came down and just focus on those characters who don't lick Dany's boots and completely ignore that team Dany is at fault, at which point it becomes Team Dany's responsibility to clean up their mess. Whether people like Dany and her armies in the North is irrelevant at that point, it's their mess to fix.

[Empress Sansa]

On 5/6/2019 at 3:59 PM, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

What's Sansa ultimate goal here with telling Tyrion about Jon. Independent North or not bending the knee to Dany?

Sansa´s ultimate goal is the Iron Throne, and will deservedly make it there.

[Tagganaro]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

For me as book reader it's not so strange, especially from Starks. In Fire & Blood Queen Alysanne and her dragon are welcomed very coldly by the Lord of WF. It takes her a while before he's charmed by her. And even then negotiations are tough. Starks are icy, cold and drive real hard bargains, even when charmed. So, Sansa's tough attitude is much in line with that. It's very Stark-like. Book-Jon actually has that as well, but show-Jon comes across as easily intimidated. Except they failed to use Jon making such hard bargains with both the wildlings and the Iron Bank in the show. They completely failed to use Stannis' time in the North to show this - we only had Lyanna Mormont's letter, and none of Stannis trying to tour Houses (Mountain Clans) to get them to fight for him. Instead they had Jon and Sansa tour the North themselves, using that to make the other lords look as disloyal to House Stark and "the North does NOT remember". They fail at showing us through Jorah that Sansa was initiating the making of a bargain-deal when she asked "What about the North?" and they cut off that scene.

That Dany does not understand this is logical. But the viewer has never been prepared for this either. They cut too many corner in their world building to help the viewer understand Sansa's "Ok, so let us get real here... you want us to fight for you and put you on the Iron Throne. What's in it for us?" as her initiating negotiations. Dany's dragons and armies up North is not enough, because Jon already gave up their independence for that. Worse, they put it all on Sansa, while not-Jon is willing to ride South for nothing in return is very unlike book-Jon.

And yes, everything is bare bones plot-device.

The bolded has been the biggest issue with the past 2 seasons.  I get why HBO stuck with D & D, they kind of owed it to them, but part of me wishes they took a harder line about the shortened seasons which has killed any pacing or ability to develop the plot in an organic rational matter.  I also can understand why D & D got a little sick and tired of this and just wanted to finish it when it became clear they would have to write their own fan fiction because GRRM can't finish the books.  

Basically, as to this discussion, I think everyone's stance makes sense, Dany expects Jon to honor their arrangement and she needs his troops after losing so many fighting for the North (but really for all of humanity) and Sansa is trying to protect her own people and doesn't trust Dany (remember Sansa has almost none of the experience the audience does with Dany and views her as a power-hungry outsider who wants to subdue the North again after this is done).  But it would be able to make a lot more sense with 6 or so more episodes over the last 2 seasons combined where their different opinions could be developed a bit further.

[Levi5000]

I don't remember the details of Season 6 very well and I sure as shit am not gonna watch that garbage again, but  I seem to remember that when the Starks took back Winterfell, it was with an army of Wildlings, Stannis' leftovers, the Knights of the Vale, and just a handful of northern houses. A good chunk of the North was totally prepared to just go with the Boltons in Winterfell. 

So why in the hell is Sansa so intent on getting these people independence? Why is she acting like she owes them something? 

Also, the North should be completely decimated at this point, which is the stupidest time to be insisting on independence. They need food, maybe they need to be able to send refugees south for a time, they need resources to rebuild the wall.... like, this is the worst time to be thinking you can go it alone. And the North is functionally independent already anyway, nobody in the South wants to go there at all, and Dany has just gone through the apocalypse with you which should create a special relationship that the North would obviously benefit from. 

The Stark girls are the worst part of the show right now - Arya doesn't trust Dany? WHY? And oh my god, Sansa actually said that Arya killed the NK when Jon was pleading with them to acknowledge that Dany was a huge help, as if the army, the dragons, even the castle wasn't necessary and all they would have had to do was send Arya all by herself with a switchblade.... 

I want Dany to feed Sansa to Drogon. I feel terribly for the actress. Her character has been completely ruined. 

[BlackLightning]

How on Earth can Sansa believe that this has no chance of backfiring?

She is truly Cersei's student.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

How on Earth can Sansa believe that this has no chance of backfiring?

She is truly Cersei's student.

I’ll never understand the idea that Sansa has somehow learned how to play the game shrewdly by observing Littlefinger. 

If this recent conduct is what she learned from him, she did a poor job of watching him. 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

1 hour ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I’ll never understand the idea that Sansa has somehow learned how to play the game shrewdly by observing Littlefinger. 

If this recent conduct is what she learned from him, she did a poor job of watching him. 

Interestingly enough, I have heard that it was Inquisition policy to send written announcements to people they wished to question well in advance.  So in reality the Spanish Inquisition was almost always expected.  If you believe Stephen Frye over Monty Python. 

Your comments regarding Sansa are spot on.       

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Interestingly enough, I have heard that it was Inquisition policy to send written announcements to people they wished to question well in advance.  So in reality the Spanish Inquisition was almost always expected.  If you believe Stephen Frye over Monty Python. 

Your comments regarding Sansa are spot on.       

I prefer to believe the Inquisition was always unexpected, much like it’s commonly understood that coconuts don’t migrate and parrots pine for the fjords. 

It is known. 

[snow is the man]

Yeah this made me lose any respect I had for sansa.

Jon-Swear you won't tell anyone.

Sana-Okay.

Less then a day later.

 

Sansa-Hey tyrion I have something to tell you.

 

Sansa was already going to become the power in the north but she just HAS to have the north be independent no matter what. Jon doesn't want to rule and she knows it. The fact she broke her word to jon means that noone can trust her. And I don't get where she hates dany so much. Dany went to bat for the north and it cost her ALOT and yet sansa is picking at dany constantly and never even gave her a chance.

 

 

[Daemos]

Honestly, at this point, I just want Sansa to suffer one more time before it's all said and done for the Little Bolton she has become.

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

Honestly, at this point, I just want Sansa to suffer one more time before it's all said and done for the Little Bolton she has become.

Little Bolton?  I missed the part where Sansa ordered anyone to be flayed alive, tortured, sent an innocent boy running for his life and shooting him down.  The only death she ordered was Littlefinger's; he had betrayed her father and murdered her aunt and she did not order him tortured; his death was quick.

I don't approve of Sansa breaking her promise to Jon, but she's not at even the lower levels of Bolton viciousness yet; and hopefully won't ever get there.

 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

15 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Little Bolton?  I missed the part where Sansa ordered anyone to be flayed alive, tortured, sent an innocent boy running for his life and shooting him down.  The only death she ordered was Littlefinger's; he had betrayed her father and murdered her aunt and she did not order him tortured; his death was quick.

I don't approve of Sansa breaking her promise to Jon, but she's not at even the lower levels of Bolton viciousness yet; and hopefully won't ever get there.

 

She didn’t even order Littlefinger’s death. She put him on trial and gave him several opportunities to defend himself. He was executed at the end. That’s more opportunity than lots of people have gotten.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/6/2019 at 8:10 AM, Kajjo said:

Yes, somehow. But breaking oaths? 

She is an intrigant now, she learned the game, she turned into a cold-blooded player. Now we see her true new personality for the first time. Horrible.

She is becoming Olenna Redwyne Tyrell.  Remember, Olenna did 'unspeakable things for the sake of [her] family'.  Would Olenna be called horrible?  I think not.  Nor do I think Sansa is horrible.

Also, if you recall, Tyrion, Davos, and Dany all told Jon that they wished that he had sworn an oath to Cersei, knowing that he would break it.  Are they horrible?

Oathbreaking is common in The Game.  Only Ned and maybe Jon Arryn kept their oaths.

[Tywin Tytosson]

 

26 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Little Bolton?  I missed the part where Sansa ordered anyone to be flayed alive, tortured, sent an innocent boy running for his life and shooting him down.  The only death she ordered was Littlefinger's; he had betrayed her father and murdered her aunt and she did not order him tortured; his death was quick.

I don't approve of Sansa breaking her promise to Jon, but she's not at even the lower levels of Bolton viciousness yet; and hopefully won't ever get there.

 

Sansa is nowhere near 'Bolton status'.   She's not vicious.  She is on the way to becoming ruthless, but that's different.  The North is hard and leads to hard people.

 

As a side comment, I'll mention again that "historically" the Starks and Boltons were not that much different.  Well... disregarding things like the Boltons' passion of flaying people alive.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

10 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

She is becoming Olenna Redwyne Tyrell.  Remember, Olenna did 'unspeakable things for the sake of [her] family'.  Would Olenna be called horrible?  I think not.  Nor do I think Sansa is horrible.

Also, if you recall, Tyrion, Davos, and Dany all told Jon that they wished that he had sworn an oath to Cersei, knowing that he would break it.  Are they horrible?

Oathbreaking is common in The Game.  Only Ned and maybe Jon Arryn kept their oaths.

She could do worse, really. Olenna was ruthless in defense of her family. No one faults her for that. 

I don’t think Sansa is playing the situation with Dany well, and it’s concerning that she swore to Jon to keep his secret and then betrayed it (sworn in front of a heart tree, no less). 

But she’s not evil, or a terrible person, or obsessed with sitting the IT herself. She’s a young woman who has seen some shit and is making the occasional bad call. 

[Tywin Tytosson]

3 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

Sansa was already going to become the power in the north but she just HAS to have the north be independent no matter what.

She does, Arya does.  Just about all of the remaining Northern nobility wants it.  Jon is the only one who bent the knee.

 

3 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

Jon doesn't want to rule and she knows it. The fact she broke her word to jon means that noone can trust her. And I don't get where she hates dany so much. Dany went to bat for the north and it cost her ALOT and yet sansa is picking at dany constantly and never even gave her a chance.

Sansa doesn't hate Dany.  Sansa doesn't trust Dany.  The goals of both conflict.  Sansa does lack for tact.  Dany lacks for the ability to compromise, it seems.

[Tywin Tytosson]

4 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

She could do worse, really. Olenna was ruthless in defense of her family. No one faults her for that. 

I don’t think Sansa is playing the situation with Dany well, and it’s concerning that she swore to Jon to keep his secret and then betrayed it (sworn in front of a heart tree, no less). 

No, Sansa is not playing the situation with Dany well.  Not at all.

 

4 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

But she’s not evil, or a terrible person, or obsessed with sitting the IT herself. She’s a young woman who has seen some shit and is making the occasional bad call. 

Agree.  She is making some bad calls here and there.

[dbunting]

12 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Part of the issue for me is that Sansa is taking this particular stance when they are all facing an existential threat to humanity and Dany is there risking her life and those of her troops, as well as her chance to take the throne, to come to the north's aid. Even after the white walkers are defeated, there is still Cersei and Euron to face, people there is no hope of negotiating with or trusting. There are two sides to any negotiation and Dany isn't unreasonable for expecting some recognition for fighting against enemies that are a direct threat to the north as well as to herself.

When do you stand to gain the most when negotiating, when you have leverage or when you don't?

Currently Dany needs help to take the throne. Sansa has or feels like she has leverage. Once Dany takes the throne and the other remaining lords acknowledge her then Sansa has no leverage.

[MinscS2]

5 minutes ago, dbunting said:

When do you stand to gain the most when negotiating, when you have leverage or when you don't?

Currently Dany needs help to take the throne. Sansa has or feels like she has leverage. Once Dany takes the throne and the other remaining lords acknowledge her then Sansa has no leverage.

Sansa never had any leverage, she just acted like she did for some reason.

Sansa was acting Lady of Winterfell.
Jon however, was King in the North, and then became Warden of the North.
By Jon (as king) pledging the north to Daenerys (regardless of what Sansa thinks of it), the North and Daenerys are in it together, and ultimately just as Daenerys came north to aid the north, the north are pledged to aid Daenerys in the war against Cersei.

Sansa is entitled to her opinion, but is ultimately powerless - unless she stages an actual coup and get's the northern lords to abandon Jon (and Daenerys) in favor of her.

If northern independence was ever on the negotiation table, it would've been before Jon bent the knee.
Consider Yara and Theon back in S6: They had independence for the Iron Islands on the negotiation table, in return for allying with and supporting Daenerys in her war, before striking the deal with her. If Iron Island-independence had been an afterthought that came up in the middle of the war, Daenerys would probably be less likely to accept it (and rightly so.)