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[Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Westeros doesn't agree with you.

But that's not an assertion I did make, did I? I said the scenario as presented by the show is ludicrous - but it is equally ludicrous that a lot of people would make a fuzz about Dany killing a bunch of enemies because nobody in this world gives a rat's ass whether the smallfolk 'yields'. Nor has anybody at this point in this series actually ever expressed regret or doubt about the smallfolk on the other side of a conflict. There is literally zero consideration for this kind of thing.

People do care for their own smallfolk up to a point, and there are people, like Stannis, who refuse to punish the smallfolk for a betrayal of their lord. But this never extends to the point that wars or battles are not fought because the result could be the deaths of innocent bystanders on the enemy side. Nobody cares about that in this world.

And this should even be more true after the War for the Dawn is over. If Dany were to burn all five great cities of Westeros at that point people would likely just shrug. The winter they lived though should be much more horrible than anything we can imagine. As early as autumn Catelyn and her band of thugs are hanging people left and right. 

Care for commoners is a modern concept that has no place in George R. R. Martin's Westeros. There are small traces of this in Doran Martell's political approach and the softness of Edmure Tully - but that extends only to your own smallfolk, not to the smallfolk of your enemies. And curiously enough the only person who gave a rat's ass about the lives of innocents she basically had nothing to do with actually is Daenerys.

Tyranny in Westeros never was burning peasants. It was mistreating the nobility and limiting the powers of the Faith. If Dany does that she might become problems. But if she just burns down a city - with or without good reason - then nobody in this world is going to fault her for that.

I mean, just think of the Dance. The Two Betrayers burned down Tumbleton but they were not later betrayed and killed by their allies because they killed thousands of innocent commoners - they were killed because they were seen as lowborn scum who overreached themselves.

Dany gains NOTHING from burning the commoners. The freaking Red Keep was in front of her like a sitting duck, waiting to be attacked, and she chose to slaughter the commoners instead! These aren't "normal" medieval atrocities, that are "I am gonna burn my subjects for no reason, so TV watchers will know that I am mad and evil durr durr!"

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1 minute ago, Ser Lepus said:

Dany gains NOTHING from burning the commoners. The freaking Red Keep was in front of her like a sitting duck, waiting to be attacked, and she chose to slaughter the commoners instead! These aren't "normal" medieval atrocities, that are "I am gonna burn my subjects for no reason, so TV watchers will know that I am mad and evil durr durr!"

Haha, yes I guess the show runners wanted us to get the message in just a scene instead of a slower development. Saved themselves time. 

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5 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Uh... nope. No it wasn't rational at all.

The Red Keep was in front of her. She could have attacked it and killed Cersei, or at least scared the shit out of all the witnesses... but she chose to attack the commoners while Cersei watched from the window... if Cersei had half a brain cell, she could have escaped on time with Qyburn through the tunnels while Dany ruined her reputation on her own volition...

And "control the narrative..." the northeners were there. There are survivors escaping the city, and Lannister soldiers have probably escaped too. They will tell the truth, the tale of the Mad Queen... and there is a city down to cinders to prove it. What is Dany going to do, hunt the fleeing survivors across Westeros? She won't get them all. There is no way the tale of the Mad Queen won't spread around.

Or maybe she will invent the radio, TV and newspapers so her propaganda can drown the rumors?

Westerosi lords were already swearing loyalty to her. The King of the North was in her palm and in her bed. She could have taken power seamlessly. Now everybody will think she is mad. She will have to keep guard constantly, using terror as her only weapon to keep everybody in line... and is some day Drogon isn't there, she is dead... Not to mention Drogon can't protect her inside castles... she can be assassinated or poisoned...

I used to wish for her to return to Slaver's Bay and rule there, but now I think death would be a more merciful end... the character is ruined...

The northerners who were there would be mad to tell any story except the official narrative of the Queen, and the ravens she will send out telling her version of the story will beat them home.

By the time of the invasion, she had a reasonable certainty that Jon was going to be put onto the throne by the Westerosi lords before long.  The battle of KL may have been won when the bells tolled, but the War for the Throne had not, and winning battles doesn't win wars.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Dany gains NOTHING from burning the commoners. The freaking Red Keep was in front of her like a sitting duck, waiting to be attacked, and she chose to slaughter the commoners instead! These aren't "normal" medieval atrocities, that are "I am gonna burn my subjects for no reason, so TV watchers will know that I am mad and evil durr durr!"

I wouldn’t necessarily say nothing after she almost literally quoted Machiavelli when Jon wouldn’t kiss her. She chose fear. This was fearsome. 

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1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, I'm sure they love him down in Dorne

Probably no more or less than the other Kingdoms Aegon conquered. You know many Chinese citizens today revere Genghis though he’s committed loads of atrocities to build his empire. Oh and I would guess there’s not too a lot of resentment for Napoleon amongst the British even though he did his damndest to break them in pursuit of his empire.

 

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11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Probably no more or less than the other Kingdoms Aegon conquered. You know many Chinese citizens today revere Genghis though he’s committed loads of atrocities to build his empire. Oh and I would guess there’s not too a lot of resentment for Napoleon amongst the British even though he did his damndest to break them in pursuit of his empire.

And the point of all this what?

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2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And the point of all this what?

 You seemed to treat it as a given that Dorne must have a large amount Anti-Aegon sentiment( which we’ve see no evidence of). I simply wanted to showcase your assumption may be wrong. Simple as that.

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To the people still struggling to come to terms with Dany and Grey Worm's actions, watch this documentary about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam:

A lot of what is in that documentary can be applied to the actions of Dany, Grey Worm and their army.

Years of pent up frustration and setbacks finally come gushing out during the battle for King's Landing in the worst way imaginable.

Bloodlust is a real thing. Ample evidence provided by soldiers from many wars demonstrates that the impulse to kill and seek revenge is very difficult to control without good and strong leadership.

The Jocko podcast has a great episode on this topic:

Dany and Grey Worm's actions are disgusting and reprehensible but are completely believable. Dany ultimately proved herself to be an effective conquerer but a pathetic leader, as did Grey Worm.

For his part, credit is due to John Snow for at least trying to stop the carnage after it started but, as others have said, he is at least complicit based on his suspicions of what Dany could be like.

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 You seemed to treat it as a given that Dorne must have a large amount Anti-Aegon sentiment( which we’ve see no evidence of). I simply wanted to showcase your assumption may be wrong. Simple as that.

And why would Dorne remember him fondly? After their country fought a bitter war against him? 

But beyond that, why is general Westerosi opinion about Aegon even relevant to what we as book readers think about him?

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If Dany does become the blood-soaked tyrant the television is portraying in the books there will have to be better build up and a long line of brutal or 'mad' acts before we get to the stage where we are thinking of Jon turning on her, if indeed this is where we are heading in book and tv. I think Lord Varys is right to point out that the attitude to the smallfolk in warfare means Dany burning King's Landing after a surrender might not in itself be sufficient to cause some of her allies to desert her. Tywin drowned the Reynes after they surrendered and no one thought Tywin was 'mad' or unfit to rule the westerlands (and the Reyners were nobles).

However, Lord Varys is wrong to think Jon and some other people in westeros wouldn't care at all on the basis this is the way of war or something like that. They absolutely would and wouldn't want to serve a butcher. That is what Dany would be if she pulls this off. The burning of King's Landing would need to conjoined with other harsh or 'mad' acts though for Dany to arrive at tyranny status in westerosi eyes. I think in the books she is likely to butcher her way through groups of noble hostages during or after her war with Aegon. 

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2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And why would Dorne remember him fondly? After their country fought a bitter war against him? 

But beyond that, why is general Westerosi opinion about Aegon even relevant to what we as book readers think about him?

 Your reasons for why they must could be applied to most of the provinces Aegon Conquered. We don’t really see that around Westeroes.  I don’t see a particularly good reason why Dorne should be the exception.  And, I would point to my earlier statement of Genghis being revered by many Chinese today. The people a conqueror warred with, and/or conquered altogether don’t always have to resent the conqueror forever.  

And I find it wrong to estimate a man if you remove him from his context. Like Ned is by definition a sexist, but it’s far less outrageous for him(a medieval lord) to be undesirable thing than say a man in Canada 2019. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Your reasons for why they must could be applied to most of the provinces Aegon Conquered. We don’t really see that around Westeroes.  I don’t see a particularly good reason why Dorne should be the exception.  And, I would point to my earlier statement of Genghis being revered by many Chinese today. The people a conqueror warred with, and/or conquered altogether don’t always have to resent the conqueror forever.  

And I find it wrong to estimate a man if you remove him from his context. Like Ned is by definition a sexist, but it’s far less outrageous for him(a medieval lord) to be undesirable thing than say a man in Canada 2019. 

1. Provide evidence about Chinese attitudes about Genghis Khan.

2. You didn't answer my question why Dorne would particularly like Aegon. Probably the most likely explanation is they just don't think about him much since he invaded their country so long ago.

3. I don't disagree that context matter. However, it shouldn't be a free pass either. It's not a license for anything goes. Aegon's invasion of Dorne was atrocious.

4. And you didn't do a very good job of answering my question why we should as book readers like Aegon, even if he is allegedly revered in Westeros.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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If anything, anyone who watched any 80's movies knows that you just don't kill the protagonist black friend, just don't, bloody vengeance is certain.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

1. Provide evidence about Chinese attitudes about Genghis Khan.

Even as far back as the 1980s, China financed and helped rebuilt the Khan's mausoleum.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-06-13-mn-6896-story.html

The Mongolians, of course, really revere him.  In the entertainment forum, coincidentally, just last week was it? I put up two Youtubes of young Mongolian music videos about the return of Genghis and how his ideals for living should return.

Edited by Zorral

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I never expected the battle (if we can even call it that) to play out in such a one dimensional manner. I was hoping for the Golden company to play a larger role. The Greyjoy fleet was decimated.

I guess the point was to illustrate the madness and danger of a Targaryen on a dragon, but after seeing two of them go down, the idea of a single one giving KL so much trouble doesn't sit well with me. There should have been a bigger battle.

The only part that played out in a satisfactory manner was the duel between the two Clegane's. I was only expecting Yara to face off against Euron as that would have been more poetic.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Even as far back as the 1980s, China financed and helped rebuilt the monument tomb to Ghenghis.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-06-13-mn-6896-story.html

The Mongolians, of course, really revere him.  In the entertainment forum, coincidentally, just last week was it? I put up two Youtubes of young Mongolian music videos about the return of Genghis and how his ideals for living should return.

Interestingly enough, the article suggest Ghenghis isn't particularly well liked in the Soviet Union or Vietnam. I wonder why.

And I don't get the impression from this article that the Chinese Communist Party changed its views about him because they said, "Gosh darn it. He just wasn't that bad of guy after all!" It seems something else might have been going on.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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6 hours ago, Zorral said:

If one wished to provide a sort of insightful credit to writers that they certainly have not earned in any way, it would be what happens when human beings achieve free will, rather than being enslaved objects of others' will.

Daenerys broke the Unsullied's chains.  They now have personality and character and choice, as we see grow within Grey Worm over several seasons.  Part of that was learning to love someone, someone, again enslaved,  helpless and without power, killed for no reason other than Cersei being the crazy mad eviLe b*tch she's always been, using Missandrei as an object lesson.  So, it was Torgo Nudho, meaning in High Valyrian,* "Grey Worm," who makes the free will choice -- his own choice, not an order -- to kill.

As I commented, the showrunners didn't earn that. It wasn't there on the screen.  I brought it.

*  I have no idea why at that moment Daenerys speaks to him with his name in High Valyrian.

 

 

My thinking of this was that they have had some prior discussion and have come to a plan themselves regardless of what Tyrion or Jon are saying. When she says to Grey Worm "you know when" or to that effect is that its as if she had already decided what she was going to do. "The Bell" was the trigger for her and for Grey Worm to exact revenge.

 

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9 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

It really was. At first when the slow mo started and the camera was focused in on Arya's face I thought , maybe, maybe she had a fatal wound on her stomach area ? Not that it would've stopped her, but I assumed since this scene was the end of the episode, that there was something coming up, a cliffhanger, a big reveal or moment but nope. It really was a pointless scene. Like you said, trying to be artistic without any clear direction or substance.

It was all just professor X sending Wolverine a magical uber. I'm sure Wolvie would have made it home without that magical uber. Nothing can stop this Wolvie.

I was trying to figure this out as well. I wondered if it was the hounds horse or.....that’s all I managed to reach. Doesn’t surprise me though. With all the reaching of this episode it was pretty crowded.

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48 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

I never expected the battle (if we can even call it that) to play out in such a one dimensional manner. I was hoping for the Golden company to play a larger role. The Greyjoy fleet was decimated.

I guess the point was to illustrate the madness and danger of a Targaryen on a dragon, but after seeing two of them go down, the idea of a single one giving KL so much trouble doesn't sit well with me. There should have been a bigger battle.

The only part that played out in a satisfactory manner was the duel between the two Clegane's. I was only expecting Yara to face off against Euron as that would have been more poetic.

But it makes SO MUCH sense that euron happened to swim to safety in the exact time and spot that Jamie is in when trying to get to Cersei...

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