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Rant & Rave without Repercussion: Burn It All Edition

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You know what is sad and I thought about this today. If way back in the hardhome episode season 5 , if Jon had scaled that cliff and had the exact same fight he had with the whitewalker but with the NightKing, it would've been far more satisfying and consistent with the story than anything that happened with the others in the following seasons.

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Imagine if the main plot for S8 had leaked a week or so after S7 ended back in 2017...

- Jon and Daenerys arrive at Winterfell.
- There are some reunions and some tension. The Stark-children barely get any screen time together. 
- Jon's parentage only serves to break up Jonerys.
- The AotD attacks. A few named characters die but ultimately casualties are lower than expected.
- The NK and his entire army dies due to a swift sneakattack from Arya. Bran is useless.
- Daenerys shifts her attention to King's Landing but suffer some questionable setbacks. Jamie throws his redemption arc in the nearest ditch.
- The battle is ultimately one-sided, and at the moment of victory Daenerys turns into a psychopathic killer because of...reasons, and destroys the city and kills most of it's populace. Cleganebowl, then Jamie and Cersei dies anti-climatically from falling rocks. 
- (assumptions for E6) Jon kills Daenerys, tells Sansa to fuck off and leaves for the real north. 

The End.

People would laugh condescendingly and consider it really really bad fanfic...

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

Imagine if the main plot for S8 had leaked a week or so after S7 ended back in 2017...

- Jon and Daenerys arrive at Winterfell.
- There are some reunions and some tension. The Stark-children barely get any screen time together. 
- Jon's parentage only serves to break up Jonerys.
- The AotD attacks. A few named characters die but ultimately casualties are lower than expected.
- The NK and his entire army dies due to a swift sneakattack from Arya. Bran is useless.
- Daenerys shifts her attention to King's Landing but suffer some questionable setbacks. Jamie throws his redemption arc in the nearest ditch.
- The battle is ultimately one-sided, and at the moment of victory Daenerys turns into a psychopathic killer because of...reasons, and destroys the city and kills most of it's populace. Cleganebowl, then Jamie and Cersei dies anti-climatically from falling rocks. 
- (assumptions for E6) Jon kills Daenerys, tells Sansa to fuck off and leaves for the real north. 

The End.

People would laugh condescendingly and consider it really really bad fanfic...

The entire show should've ended with Jaime deciding to leave Cersei and head North to fight for the living.

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Just now, darksellsword said:

The entire show should've ended with Jaime deciding to leave Cersei and head North to fight for the living.

Yeah I'd honestly prefer a perpetual, unresolved S7-cliffhanger over the shit we ended up with. 

If nothing else, then at least, S1-S7 would still have some rewatch-value. 

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On 5/14/2019 at 12:14 AM, RhaenysBee said:

This whole mad queen business could have been the most heart wrenching, sad, tragic, beautifully done character arc motion picture history has ever seen. How how how how can you fuck it up so badly and how dare you justify it be recontextualizing previous scenes?

Well, you don't ever want D&D do an adaptation of Lear or Macbeth. Hell, don't ever let them do Titus Andronicus: they'd have him go on blissful picnics and make him a hero to save everyone, including his enemies, before someone rings a bell and he decides to butcher everyone.

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So. Should we have a poll? I was thinking, the leaks we have so far are so outrageously stupid they might be true? I’m not sure I got it all, but off the top of my head...

1. Jon/Arya wearing Jon’s face kills Dany 

2. Bran is “elected” top ruler/king/CEO/whatever 

3. Bronn sits on the council ( :lol: :lmao: :rofl:)

4. Dany’s dead body is taken to the .ioF by Drogon, where she is resurrected and becomes the Night Queen.

5. Jon goes back to CB and the NW.

6. Sansa rules Winterfell/the North

7. Tyrion dies (I don’t even care how, as long as he does indeed DIE

I don't believe either Arya or Tyrion will die in the show (although I hope they do).  Arya will leave to find out "what's west of Westeros", because they love their matchy-matchy dialogue. Everyone will want to save pure, lovely St. Tyrion. *throws up furball*

As for the rest, who can say - it's all such a disaster.

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15 hours ago, Nami said:


I don't buy this Night Queen crap. But Jon for sure will have a perfectly boring ending that fits his boring character. It's amazing to me how much I don't care for any of these characters anymore.

It's gonna end in a shitty way we all know it.
I will not watch it because the show is officially dead to me. All characters were killed during The Long Night.

I've written out several possible ends for Jon simply because they've made him the most useless man in Westeros aside from "not really" his brother Bran.  But my favorite is having Arya sneak up to kill him (because reasons), suddenly Jon remembering he's an excellent fighter, turns and catches her, takes her blade from her, drops her, then finally decides it's time he actually do something this season.  And with that, he gets on his knees and sepuku's himself as he says to Arya, "you ain't gettin' this kill, bitch."

I'm watching the ending just to see how much of the trainwreck is yet to occur.  It's hard to believe each week that there's more brutal stupidity ahead of us, and yet, every week there is.

Can I complain one more time about Jamie's arc?  Seriously.  What the HELL was his reasoning?  He spends seven seasons climbing out of the pit of Cersei's grasp, becoming a better man, and trying to find a better life.  He finds out she's sent Bronn (of all people, for fuck's sake) to kill him.  He then decides he's finally free of her completely, or so we're lead to believe when he takes Brienne's virginity and seems to have a genuine affection for her.  Then he wakes up and goes, "J/K.  Off to fuck my sister some more.  I'mma bad dude.  Ta!"

WTF?  Seriously.  WTF?

And why was Cersei so happy to see him after wanting him dead?  GAH.  This show.

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16 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

WTF?  Seriously.  WTF?

And why was Cersei so happy to see him after wanting him dead?  GAH.  This show.

I just have to say that I think the writing on the show is utter crap but, given that, Jamies arc is not unbelievable.

A man who is married to a woman for 20 years and has 3 kids with her (no matter how poison she is) does not get over her right away, if at all. She scars him, in ways that he cannot recover from. Jamie returning to Cerise felt almost natural to me, as much as I also disliked it. Think of your own life, how many things have you done that you hate yourself for in retrospect?

Jamie used Brienne - yes, he totally used her. Cersie is a babe (especially in the books) and Brienne is a monster. Jamie tried to love for honor and it failed - you now why? The beauty in women inspires honor in men - a woman like Brienne may carry her own honor but how much honor does she inspire in a man that wants to protect the beautiful? Jamie is a vain character, always has been and always will be. His father knew it. As much as he tried to improve, he could not.

Life is cruel, I don't make the rules, I'm just observing them.

Edited by ummester
vanity

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25 minutes ago, ummester said:

I just have to say that I think the writing on the show is utter crap but, given that, Jamies arc is not unbelievable.

A man who is married to a woman for 20 years and has 3 kids with her (no matter how poison she is) does not get over her right away, if at all. She scars him, in ways that he cannot recover from. Jamie returning to Cerise felt almost natural to me, as much as I also disliked it. Think of your own life, how many things have you done that you hate yourself for in retrospect?

Jamie used Brienne - yes, he totally used her. Cersie is a babe (especially in the books) and Brienne is a monster. Jamie tried to love for honor and it failed - you now why? The beauty in women inspires honor in men - a woman like Brienne may carry her own honor but how much honor does she inspire in a man that wants to protect the beautiful? Jamie is a vain character, always has been and always will be. His father knew it. As much as he tried to improve, he could not.

Life is cruel, I don't make the rules, I'm just observing them.

I do believe it's possible that he goes back to her in the books as well, I was never fully sold on his 'redemption'....it's also possible he goes back to her but it ends in a murder/suicide fulfilling the prophecy because by the time he gets back to her she is totally nuts.

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28 minutes ago, ummester said:

I just have to say that I think the writing on the show is utter crap but, given that, Jamies arc is not unbelievable.

A man who is married to a woman for 20 years and has 3 kids with her (no matter how poison she is) does not get over her right away, if at all. She scars him, in ways that he cannot recover from. Jamie returning to Cerise felt almost natural to me, as much as I also disliked it. Think of your own life, how many things have you done that you hate yourself for in retrospect?

Jamie used Brienne - yes, he totally used her. Cersie is a babe (especially in the books) and Brienne is a monster. Jamie tried to love for honor and it failed - you now why? The beauty in women inspires honor in men - a woman like Brienne may carry her own honor but how much honor does she inspire in a man that wants to protect the beautiful? Jamie is a vain character, always has been and always will be. His father knew it. As much as he tried to improve, he could not.

Life is cruel, I don't make the rules, I'm just observing them.

Had they made any of that apparent with dialog or actions, I'd probably have been a little more able to accept it.  As it is?  She still wanted him dead, and that appeared to trigger his desperate need to go scuttling back to her.

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26 minutes ago, ummester said:

I just have to say that I think the writing on the show is utter crap but, given that, Jamies arc is not unbelievable.

A man who is married to a woman for 20 years and has 3 kids with her (no matter how poison she is) does not get over her right away, if at all. She scars him, in ways that he cannot recover from. Jamie returning to Cerise felt almost natural to me, as much as I also disliked it. Think of your own life, how many things have you done that you hate yourself for in retrospect?

Jamie used Brienne - yes, he totally used her. Cersie is a babe (especially in the books) and Brienne is a monster. Jamie tried to love for honor and it failed - you now why? The beauty in women inspires honor in men - a woman like Brienne may carry her own honor but how much honor does she inspire in a man that wants to protect the beautiful? Jamie is a vain character, always has been and always will be. His father knew it. As much as he tried to improve, he could not.

Life is cruel, I don't make the rules, I'm just observing them.

I thought I was alone in this, but I've maintained all along that I think Jamie's failed redemption arc is bloody brilliant. Standard redemption arcs are all fine and dandy but too cliched, and we already had a nice one for Theon. Another one for Jamie is just too conventional for anything associated with GRRM.  People try, and fail. It's not uncommon but not so often portrayed in literature. In the end, for Jamie blood turned out to be thicker - shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's paid attention.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I do believe it's possible that he goes back to her in the books as well, I was never fully sold on his 'redemption'....it's also possible he goes back to her but it ends in a murder/suicide fulfilling the prophecy because by the time he gets back to her she is totally nuts.

This I would have liked much better.  The murder/suicide part.  That honestly felt like where he should have been heading through most of the series, if not stepping out altogether.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I do believe it's possible that he goes back to her in the books as well, I was never fully sold on his 'redemption'....it's also possible he goes back to her but it ends in a murder/suicide fulfilling the prophecy because by the time he gets back to her she is totally nuts.

I think that is one of my issues with the way that the Dany/Jon story is panning out, especially if Jon kills mad queen Dany as spoilers suggest. It seems a bit as if Dany and Jon on the show stole the plot that the books are setting up for Cersei and Jaime

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12 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Had they made any of that apparent with dialog or actions, I'd probably have been a little more able to accept it.  As it is?  She still wanted him dead, and that appeared to trigger his desperate need to go scuttling back to her.

Yep - the writing is crap. You have to read between the lines with this pathetic rendition of what may have once been a powerful plot to decipher any meaning or value.

Know this though, I blame both D&D for being absolute fucking hacks and GRRM for being a lazy shit that sold his story before he was finished (and I know I can be a lazy shit with some vague semblance of writing talent also, so it is not like I am criticizing GRRM form a place of no understanding).

Edited by ummester

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13 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yep - the writing is crap. You have to read between the lines with this pathetic rendition of what may have once been a powerful plot to decipher any meaning or value.

Know this though, I blame both D&D for being absolute fucking hacks and GRRM for being a lazy shit that sold his story before he was finished (and I know I can be a lazy shit with some vague semblance of writing talent also, so it is not like I am criticizing GRRM form a place of no understanding).

I feel like you can't blame GRRM for this.

It's like if we were playing a game of telephone. You and I are the last two people in the game. I whisper "I love roses and I hate dandelions but water lilies are stunning" in your ear and then you yell out "Peace lilies are poisonous to house-pets so they must be destroyed."

 

Oftentimes, the problem isn't the message, the messenger or even the one who gives the message. The problem is with the recipient of the message. Which explains why it was so unfortunately common for the messenger to be killed.

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10 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Imagine if the main plot for S8 had leaked a week or so after S7 ended back in 2017...

- Jon and Daenerys arrive at Winterfell.
- There are some reunions and some tension. The Stark-children barely get any screen time together. 
- Jon's parentage only serves to break up Jonerys.
- The AotD attacks. A few named characters die but ultimately casualties are lower than expected.
- The NK and his entire army dies due to a swift sneakattack from Arya. Bran is useless.
- Daenerys shifts her attention to King's Landing but suffer some questionable setbacks. Jamie throws his redemption arc in the nearest ditch.
- The battle is ultimately one-sided, and at the moment of victory Daenerys turns into a psychopathic killer because of...reasons, and destroys the city and kills most of it's populace. Cleganebowl, then Jamie and Cersei dies anti-climatically from falling rocks. 
- (assumptions for E6) Jon kills Daenerys, tells Sansa to fuck off and leaves for the real north. 

The End.

People would laugh condescendingly and consider it really really bad fanfic...

You forgot the smartest person in Westeros's plot:

- Sansa is immediately ungrateful and bitchy towards Dany when she arrives to Winterfell with 2 dragons and quadruple (hard to tell with so many re-spawns and fake tension deaths) the Norths forces to help fight against the undead.

- Sansa pushes a you can't trust Dany narrative with nothing other than a gut feeling which makes Dany feel alienated and not welcomed in Westeros when all she is trying to do is help save it, and if anything Sansa should be praising her arrival as they will be dead/undead without her.

- While Dany is sacrificing her entire army (except the magically re-spawned 50% next episode) to save the North, Sansa, Winterfell and all of Westeros, Sansa is in the crypts still being catty in regards to Dany, because that is some quality forced teen drama level writing right there which we all love :shocked:.

- After the battle Sansa continues to be unreasonable cold towards Dany and distrust and alienate her more making her feel not welcomed in Westeros. And Sansa barely gives recognition to Dany for sacrificed everything to help save the realm? Real quality stuff.

- Sansa jumps at the first opportunity to undermine Dany's authority when her dumb brother/cousin tells her his true parentage, giving Dany more reason to feel isolated in this world.

- Dany goes crazy after being alienated and pushed away by (mostly Sansa) and the ungrateful people in Westeros who she has saved now from an army of the undead and a tyrant Queen, so she says "screw it I'm burning this place to the ground"

- And now in episode 6 we will get to hear Sansa say I told you so about how super smart she is for knowing not to trust Dany even though her only reasons were "because I am so smart" even though she was one of the biggest factors in Dany being pushed to her isolation and eventual rule with fear attitude.

- If you haven't figured it out I can't stand the Sansa character in the show and how she does nothing useful and offers no real insight except "listen to me, oh you're letting me offer my opinion? I don't really have anything to add except listen to me because I'm like the smartest person in Westeros. Other characters even say this,so it must be true!"

- The only thing this show has successfully done is make me rout for mass murdering Dany and hope she flies Drogon right up to Winterfell and rids us of Sansa. 

Edited by LokisRaider

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7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I feel like you can't blame GRRM for this.

It's like if we were playing a game of telephone. You and I are the last two people in the game. I whisper "I love roses and I hate dandelions but water lilies are stunning" in your ear and then you yell out "Peace lilies are poisonous to house-pets so they must be destroyed."

 

Oftentimes, the problem isn't the message, the messenger or even the one who gives the message. The problem is with the recipient of the message. Which explains why it was so unfortunately common for the messenger to be killed.

Sure - but if you entrust your message to someone who can't hear properly, its totally dismissive/evasive and uncountable of you to blame the other persons ears right? And if you know the telephone line is fucked, why did you use it to relay the message? And, if you were so dumb that you trusted the line and the person on the other end, after both turned out out be incredibly faulty, then you do not have the right to call yourself intellectual or erudite.

Edited by ummester

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53 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I think that is one of my issues with the way that the Dany/Jon story is panning out, especially if Jon kills mad queen Dany as spoilers suggest. It seems a bit as if Dany and Jon on the show stole the plot that the books are setting up for Cersei and Jaime

Maybe the story ends with Dany killing all the other main characters, and reigning for decades.

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Maybe the story ends with Dany killing all the other main characters, and reigning for decades.

One can hope...
She got the throne but it won't bring her happiness and it cost her (and us) everything and everyone. 

BiTtErSwEeT...!
 

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