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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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9 minutes ago, theladyinspring said:

Bronn is Master of Coin


I've seen some people defending Bronn being the Lord of Highgarden and Master of Coin because "Lannisters pay their debts" so obviously I'm dumb for questioning it, just missed that, not like the nobility of the Reach would just be cool with some rando sellsword ruling over them or anything. These are the people that D&D pander too and I feel like arguing with them just insults my own intelligence. They don't care that all the depth and nuance is gone and anyone that questions it is just whining and too hard to please. :dunno:

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So the moral of the story is... those who do nothing get all the rewards... and those that fight tooth and nail and make the biggest sacrifices get punished and shunned... i think this is just tragic.   

Sansa did nothing to save the kingdom and become Queen... Bronn does nothing to save the kingdom and gets all the gold and highgarden... Bran did nothing but stare at people and becomes king... Sam did very little in the battle of winterfell and nothing for the battle of kinglanding and becomes Maestar of Kings landing (did his night watch vows get forgotten) ...

Jon sacrifices everything including his life to save the north, he did everything in his power to stop danny being another tyrant, He gets shunned and punished for all his actions. Arya just disappears on a boat.

Tyrion and Brienne had the only good finishing arcs in this story.



Edited by Flightless bird

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Before I begin, I just want to thank all the people who left a “like” on my prior review of Episode 5.  From what I can gather it had over 40 likes which, from my memory, makes it the most liked comment about any episode.  I really appreciate that.  I hope I can finish strong. 

As for tonight... 

So.. I mean… the episode itself … it wasn’t like drinking turpentine or having your groin attacked by piranha or having to sit through season 5 again, was it? 

No.  I actually thought the finale was the best episode of the season; it answered all of our questions; it ended the story; it started the chapters of the next stories and it basically gave us enough to know where our characters are headed (answer for most: into something really, really dumb). 

This episode did not make me wish for early death; it did not make me yell at my TV; it did not make me laugh so hard at myself that I cried.  No.  It was almost mediocre which makes it EASILY the best episode since The Door. 

It was still sucky, but watching a bunch of idiots act like smart people was practically Hamlet compared to the river of waste we saw in the previous 3 episodes. 

ANYWAY… let’s, for the last time, light this one up”


The Road To Hell …: The central message to Dany’s demise was laid by the best character the show had, Tyrion, when he said, in effect, they created this Frankenstein’s monster.  And while this REAKS of apologetics (that I will not let the show get away with- see below), there is some level of truth to it.  A person who believes that they are right; who believes in a righteous cause; who believes they have “history on our side” who thinks its okay to punch somebody in the face if you can convince people that that person is “evil;” who think that they can do terrible and horrifying things because, well, they want to “change things” then the rise and fall of Dany Targaryen makes more sense (it still makes no sense, mind you).

I thought the way Tyrion expressed Dany’s state of mind was extremely well crafted and sensible.  Dany did what she did because she believed she was fighting evil and those who believe they are in a battle with evil can justify their atrocities. Dany- like a person who wishes to censor people who utter unwelcome thoughts - believed she was acting for the best because she knew what was best.  For everyone else.  

TO ME I think that the most apt metaphor in world history would be either the French Revolution or the Russian Revolutions where the ruling class was decimated- root and stem – by people who wanted to “break the wheel.”  The French desired to destroy monarchy; the Communists desiring for the workers of the world to unite and throw off their chains.  Both brought untold misery and destruction to their brave new worlds.  To me, Dany makes the most sense if she is seen on her dragon as a French democrat or a Marxist or as a common era Social Justice Warrior who claims that in order to get the world we want we have to destroy the world we know.  Yeah, it never quite works out that way.  Sure your dragons may burn a few generations into the ground but you can never change human nature. 

I thought the show delivered on that piece. 

The Medium-Sized Counsel: While it made little sense, the meeting at the fire pit I thought was very well done.  Tyrion and Jon’s lives are in the balance; I liked how the idea of creating an elective monarchy (not unheard of) was a good touch.  I LIKED how Sansa ends up as Queen (not gonna lie, its also sort of lame, but I like Sansa).  I though the scene was well done, easy and did not go too deep.  Also, liked how when Sam mentioned Democracy, they all laughed at him because … because that’s not how you break the wheel.  Good eye. 

Black Worm: Not everyone comes out for the better.  I like how the war made Grey Worm a hard, bitter, angry and violent man.  I like that he has no mercy left in him having lost his woman, his Queen and his way.  All that's left is the husk of a once good man.  

Called The Ghost: I said after Jon gave that SUPER lame exit with Ghost that it left open that Jon would return to the Wall after it was all said and done, and I was right. 

The Book: LOVED that Brienne wrote Jaime’s page in the book and made sure to take two pages.  And while he was the Kingslayer he died “Protecting his Queen.”  Nice touch. 

Tyrion Lannister: If there was one character I thought the show saved from its own MONUMENTAL ineptitude, it was Tyrion.  That’s in part because of the actor, no doubt.  But its also because the show, at the end, kept Tyrion true to his core values; he’s not wicked, he’s not cruel or greedy or even mean.  He just wants some level of fairness in this universe.  I think Tyrion stayed true to himself while everything – and almost everyone – around him got fucked.  I think that’s because the show-runners knew that 1) he was a fan favorite and 2) he was well written by Martin to begin with.  They had more to use and appreciate. I liked how he stood up for what was right and then got paid off.  Sure, that was semi-ridiculous, but he had one Hand to play so he did the best he could with it. 

What I Am On the Fence About:

Visit Tyrion?  We need all your weapons.  Visit the Queen?  That bazooka You’re Carrying is Good: So, I thought Dany’s end was strangely sad but also REALLY underwhelming.  And maybe that was the point.  I liked how she finally touched the throne (which she did not do in her season 2 vision).  I think the show telegrapher her death 16 miles away by having her specifically NOT sitting in the chair.  Further, when Jon walked in he’s got his sword and like 3 knives.  So we know what’s going to happen. 

And somewhere in the back of my mind I heard Jaime say “A Queen should die harder than this…” 

Kit Harrington was awful.  I think he’s not a great actor, but clearly, the material they had for him was terrible.  Supposedly MANY actors on the show were unhappy with the final season; the guy who played Varys said as much; Harrington said he would not miss the show at all and Clark gave a SUPER awkward interview for E!.  And part of that was how bad the writing got and really it was apparent in that scene with Dany.  Sure, Dany said a few things that were nice and sentimental and almost passable, but that scene with Dany exemplified the woodenness of the actors in how they are unable to overcome the bad writing and direction. 

Dany’s last scene was nice but also very cringe-worthy for those reasons.

Also, Drogon should have lit him up, right?  That was just major bullshit, right? 

And no stop-and-frisk the guy who has been acting SUPER sketchy for the last day or so?  Nah, he’s good!

All Hail King Also-(B)Ran: All I can say is … “meh.”  I mean, he’s not an AWFUL choice for King but … he’s kind of a lame (no pun intended) choice.  He’s basically King because he has magic powers.  Which is fine, b/c Dany was sort of the same way, but he didn’t have anything to do with this.  He was basically a decoy for the Night’s King; he was MIA for most of the show; he did not even show up an entire season.  I don’t hate the choice, I just think it was, much like the way the show was in the end, extremely mediocre.  All Hail, King Bran The Marginally Acceptable! 

The End of the Six Kingdoms: I think Sansa always planned the way she would exit  But I also think that she would have kept the North in had they named her Queen.  Regardless, I thought this was an “Oh, by the way…” moment that lacked any weight.  Sort of like “Oh, we’re leaving and because it’s the last episode, it doesn’t matter.”  This should have been a major blow, but felt tacked on.  

What I Hated:

Cue the Music: I thought that other than Sansa being made Queen, the final scenes were void of anything meaningful.  What do we do with Arya!  Why, we make her a sailor, of course!  Because maritime adventuring was always in her blood!  Said nobody ever! 

Why is Jon wandering into the woods!  Because he always wanted to settle Cataan!  Of course!  Why is Bran King?  Meh… Oh, right, forgot I said that already.

But it was meaningful and important!  Why?  Because the show told us with swelling music!  Like we were too stupid to figure out the show was over!  See, it's meaningful that the last shot (sort of) was exactly like the first one except THE OPPOSITE!!!  SEE????  Its come full circle! 

Thanks I almost missed that ham-fisted trope you brought me back to, you talentless … billionaires… fuck.  See, they cannot write anything meaningful; they cannot show us anything meaningful, they cannot make anything meaningful, so they just show random images of Starks walking and then ... swell the music!!!!  In a fucking SUPER lame way of trying to get us to FEEL something.  But we're numb.  The show was not good and nothing they did could put their mess back together again.  The fact they relied on the music "See??? This is important!!  You can tell ebcause the music is getting louder!!!!"  Not because they wrote anything memorable or well done or anything like that.  No.  That would have required skill.  Instead of the story telling us or the actors showing us... the MUSIC has to tell us something is important.  

 The ending was like wall-paper paste; it went on smoothly and without a hitch, but never inspired anything worthwhile.  It tried to make my heart think I was watching something great but in the end, I was just listening to the music.  It was a lame trick and my mind was not falling for it.  Nice trye.

And Sailor Arya is fucking stupid. 

The Nonsense of It All: This is a  small thing but once again it shows how much the writers hate the audience and takes us for dupes.  The main reason Jon had to be sent to the Wall, we were told, was to keep the Unsullied happy.  Okay, that makes some sense.  Davos says that the Unsullied should “settle the Reach” which is so fucking stupid because they are eunuchs, but that would require somebody to think of something.  Regardless, as bad as that would all be, Jon has to be sent to the Wall (or what’s left of it) because of the Unsullied.  Fine.

THE. Very. Next. Scene.  We see Grey Worm saying to his men that they are sailing for the Isle of Naarth. 

WTF!!!!  Why is Jon being sent to Northern Purgatory again?  Because the Unsullied need to be mollified?  Why, they are leaving! I sincerely doubt The King-Like Substance of Bran I is supervising an expedition into Naarth.  So it safe to assume they are relocating there.  SO… if that’s the case. Why do we care what they think of where Jon is?!?!?!?!  Just recall him! 

God this show sucks. 

You Cannot Un-Ring The Bells: If there is a major flaw in this episode its that it tries- and utterly fails – to justify the prior episode by saying that Dany was bad and that they could make everything right again.  Well, no.  Instead of having a glorious conclusion to the show, Jon just stabs Dany because that’s all that could be done (other than, you know, having Arya put on Gray Worm’s face and killing Dany and then blaming it on the real Gray Worm).  But the point is the show tried to make it all okay in the last episode.

Except… it isn’t.  The show still felt like it had no idea what it was doing and the end feels like a continuation of that mindless wandering.  They may have found a few notable points, but in the end, they seemed like they had to end it this way because it was the simplest way to end this train wreck: bury the dead. 

Look at the final scene with Dany and Jon: why do they love each other?  I never felt for a second that the two of them had anything romantic; the actors never had any chemistry.  The show was so bad at SHOWING me they loved each other that they resorted to having to TELL ME they loved each other.  So when he is kissing her, its forced and I find it hard to believe that Dany would believe it. 

The show ruined Dany for that ending because it had no idea how else to end this show.  So it sacrificed Dany on that alter and we are now made to believe that that makes this “bittersweet.”  How?  You ruined it and then expect me to celebrate your carnage?  Dany was a great character and you needed an ending so you made her go haywire and are now trying to say, “Well, see, it was kinda because…” No.  You don’t get to ruin the character and then cover it up like Watergate.  We saw it; we all saw what you did. 

The ending does not take away that this was generally a very bad season, coming off the heels of season 7 which was also underwhelming.  The problem is that the ending does not make this part of the journey any more forgivable. 

Episode: B-

Season: D-

Which leads us to….

Was it worth it?

IF I had to do it all over again; if I got to experience all of this again knowing what I know now, FUCK YEAH!  If only for the fan reactions to the Red Wedding!  Seasons 1-3 are masterpieces.  Utter masterpieces.  Season 4 is great too!  Seasons 5-6 are wretch-inducing with only a minor rebound in season 7 before the tragedy now in season 8. 

Was that worth it?

Of course.  Why? Because this show existed because of us.  By “us” I mean the book readers.  But for us nobody gets this.  WE did this; WE were the ones that bought those first 3 books in a sea of other, completely forgettable shit sci-fi fantasy.  WE pushed this envelope; WE supported the author and made his stock get so high that a show seemed all but assured.  WE did that.  If his books sat in that mid-range level, there is no Emelia Clark getting stabbed in the belly (good call back, btw; God Jamie rocked); there is no Bran the Broken; there is no Red Wedding reaction shots; there is no arguments over what did THIS mean or could THAT have been done better…

… there’s also no shitty rape-scene excuses and no fucking wasting my time in Dorne etc.. but come on!  Most of it was watchable and of the stuff that was watchable, 75% of THAT was incredible! 

Ranking the seasons:


Final Word:

You fucked up Stannis.  That’s when I should have known.  I should have known then that you were not capable of getting this right.

Regardless, they nailed the early stuff, they filled in a few blanks, improved some things, and when the books ran out of the paved road, they were lost.

OVERALL SERIES GRADE: B+  Ensconced in the second-tier of very good shows.

Thanks for reading. 

See you all for Winds of Winter, likely on shelves in 2023

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My god this episode is painful to watch. This whole sequence of Tyrion brooding in the cell telling Jon how he loved dany with all his heart... seriously... this season has been all "telling" without "showing" were they really this out of idea....

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8 minutes ago, Rockroi said:


When I sit back and think it all end, the later seasons all felt like that weird fade to black after Jon kills Danny.  They didn't know how to connect it all so they didn't.  It ended up being bad story telling because they forgot to do the story in the telling part.

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2 hours ago, fcaceres said:

It was worse than the finale of Dexter.

Dex: Hand me that saw, Jon. 

Jon Snow: We hafta get these trees doon faster if we gonna keep the Wildlings who aren't a threat anymore away. If there are even any out there. 

Dex: I'm very good at sawing things, Lord Commander. 

Jon: None of that here, boy-o. Just call me Aegon VI, King of the Andals and First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm. 

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Basic rule of story telling: you either have a happy ending , or you have a tragedy. Try to do both and you get something unfulfilling, which is exactly what we got.

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Just now, tallTale said:

Basic rule of story telling: you either have a happy ending , or you have a tragedy. Try to do both and you get something unfulfilling, which is exactly what we got.

The episode was tragic, just not in the way I suppose they would have expected... :dunno:

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Hey all! Have to say the best thing about the show has been lurking this forum. With this final episode I feel the need to join the party. 

-IDK if anyone here plays the Crusader Kings 2 GoT mod. But Dany at the end basically turned into me whenever I get a dragon in the game. "Well time to conquer absolutely everything. Screw diplomacy and stewardship my martial rating is through the roof time to capitalize." 

-Greyworm "Jon, where did Dany and Drogon go?" Jon "She went to find the next realm she's going to conquer. Should be back in about a fortnight. I'm going to go hang with my army now." Is literally all he had to say.

-Greyworm not killing Jon on sight when he confessed, along with Tyrion and Davos for good measure is completely stupid. 

- I can see GRRM working things out so Bran is king, but that "election"scene was a farce. Nobody acknowledges that the second Dany died, Jon inherited the throne and became the rightful king. Whether he wants the responsibility or not. 

-Sure the smallfolk can't vote, but Brienne, Davos and Sam get a vote? Lords Blackwood, Bracken, Royce, Dayne, Hightower, etc... don't have any say in the matter?

-If Sansa was going to pull the North out what did she care if her uncle made a play?  

-So Bran, a Stark, will rule the Six, but doesn't care that his own homeland refuses his rule? The lords of the North don't see the potential benefit to a son of Ned on the throne? What it could mean for northern industry and trade? 

- Dorne and The Iron Isles don't even know who this crippled kid is but they are fine with bending the knee? Even when his own realm, roughly a 1/3 of westeros' landmass want nothing to do with his kingship? All because he has a good story? 

-So let me get this straight. The Unsullied demand justice for Dany's death and want Jon executed or they will attack. The new King of the Six, Jon's cousin Bran who has usurped Jon's throne, and other lords including Sansa don't want to Jon to be killed. Jon is still technically the King in the North, but he accepts the judgement of his cousin, who is now a foreign King because the North was granted independence, that he should be banished back to the Nights Watch. The Nights Watch which is located in Jon's now independent northern kingdom. Where the hell were all the northern lords? Why weren't they and the northern army, Jon's northern army, there to greet him when he got off the boat with those 2 black brothers and declare him their king again? I guess the North doesn't remember. 

-Oh even better Greyworm isn't even sticking around to make sure the punishment is carried out! he's sailing halfway across the world to be killed by butterflies. 

-Oh it keeps getting better. Jon doesn't even keep his vows. As soon as he arrives at Castle Black he and the wildlings take off beyond the wall so he can live it up free and easy with Ghost and Tormund. 

-Finally, Bronn Blackwater Lord of the Reach. Bronn was a mildly entertaining side-character. Now I cannot accept any scene he is in because of the absurdity of his ending. The Reach with dozens of houses claiming to descend from the Gardener Kings is now going to accept some up-jumped sellsword as LP? Give me a break.

I've had problems with this show ever since D&D ruined Robbs character. In the books he was my favorite none pov character, in the show I actually wanted him to die with how he betrayed the Freys. Following that with each passing season the plotholes got wider and the character stories eroded away faster. This final season and in particular this episode did nothing to rectify past mistakes or tie any loose ends. I'm glad the North is free again as that was the only plot line I was still somewhat invested in. If these were truly the final spoilers from the books all I can do now is sit and hope that George can manage a much more satisfying journey to get here.        

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Did they forget they're writing drama? Where was the drama? Once Dany died it was like: okay, then a bunch of stuff happened the end.

Aside from Greyworm still being pissed, I didn't feel any stakes. Picking Bran was like naming him hall monitor at Dork High. 

Why did Greyworm not fight Jon? What, Jon dropped Longclaw and they just didn't kill him? Why was there no security around Dany besides Drogon? Even after Drogon frickin screamed and melted the Iron Throne, no one came to see if the Queen was okay. 

Jon and Greyworm should've fought to the death and/or near-death.

No one pushed for Jon to be king why? Because of the stupid Unsullied? How many could there possibly have been? 

Edited by darmody

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So even though there was this big platitude about how murdering Daenerys and a small council of lords electing the king was breaking the wheel, the wheel wasn't broken after all.

Because nothing in the end changed.

Good God, I am furious.

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I will rate this the worst final episode ever made.  I thought after watching True Detective 3 final episode it could not get worse, but this did topped it.


In the final episode there is absolutely no room for small talk and blabbering.  This needed to be an all out war to the end, and it did not deliver.   Instead they delivered a small talk garbage S3E5 equivalent.   A complete an utter failure. 





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10 minutes ago, OtherGlover said:


-Sure the smallfolk can't vote, but Brienne, Davos and Sam get a vote? 

Sam is Lord of Horn Hill I guess, and this is before Bronn gets Highgarden so maybe Sam is top dog in the Reach. Brienne could be speaking for her father in Tarth, if he's still alive. Whatever that's worth. 

Davos? Um...what land does he have? The Onion Isles? Wherever his wife is, anyway. 

Edited by darmody

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You know what's funny, despite the scale of the budget and CGI the world is more downscaled and empty and bland than ever. The Great Council should have been the prominent nobles and a shit tonne of extras packed into the ruins of the throne room... but no it's the main cast with some stand in lords that used to matter in the story on some chairs in the dragonpit with some unsullied in the backround, everything's so uninspired, beyond the story this shows me the rush job as much as anything else. 

Sansa's declaration of independence is just turning to bran and saying it then people are like okay, it's just so bland. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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They cheated with Daenerys.

For six and a half seasons, the show revelled in brutality.  Honour and decency got you killed. Being cruel was badass.  The way to defeat cruel enemies was to be crueller than they were.  The internet exploded with delight when Jon hanged Olly, Cersei tortured Unella to death, Arya gouged out Meryn Trant's eyes, and fed Walder Frey his sons, and Sansa fed Ramsay to his dogs.  And, at every point, the show runners invited us to to cheer.

And so to Dany.  There was nothing reprehensible about the way she behaved when her brother was killed, but now it's retconned as the start of her journey into darkness.   Actions which might have been portrayed as disturbing were generally shown as triumphant and uplifting, like burning MMD and hatching the dragons or locking Doreah in a vault.  When she came to Westeros, she was given consistently bad advice by her counsellors.  Reasonably enough, she came to suspect that they were at best incompetent, and at worst, treacherous.   But, her suspicion of them is now portrayed as further evidence of her moral descent.  And, as people did come to betray her, and she punished them, those punishments are now portrayed as evidence of her bad character.

Horrific as the Sack of Kings Landing was, it was true to the world that the show runners had created - the inhabitants of the city have hitherto been portrayed as a loathsome bunch, and cities that offered resistance were sacked in the past - until they decided that cruelty to enemies was a bad thing after all.

And really, the implication of Bran becoming King, and intending it all along, is that Dany was set up to be killed the moment she'd helped defeat the Night's King

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Everyone in this season got a happy ending except for Daenerys who got a tragic ending for reasons.

It is unbelievably unfair and uneven.

Sansa in particular gets to become Queen because she wanted to keep things exactly the same but Daenerys dies because she had a revolutionary aim to permanently change the world for the better.

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