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[Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

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On 5/19/2019 at 8:23 PM, hallam said:

The ending is entirely consistent with the books. It was always very clear that Jon was likely to Nyssa-Nyssa Danny. Which meant that he would probably not be the one to kill the NK. It is also clear that Jamie is going to strangle Danny to fulfill the Valonquar prophecy which means that they probably die when the red keep is on fire and he is saving her from the flames.Which in turn means that it really has to be Arya who kills the NK because that is the only payoff available for all that ninja training and the mad queen plot doesn't work as well if Jon killed the NK as well as being the legitimate heir.

The reason to read the books was never to find out the end. What is much more interesting is the beginning. We have not seen a third of the true backstory to Roberts rebellion for a start. Why did Aerys go mad? Why did Jamie sit on the Iron throne after killing him? What was the prophecy that drove Rheagar?

What text from the books makes you think Jon will "Nissa Nissa" Dany?

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57 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Poisonous butterflies? I must have missed this.

I always figured that they knew about butterfly fever (Cogman certainly would), and so deliberately set this up as a sort of poison Easter egg for Grey Worm to go to a grisly grave soon after the show's ending.

If that's not the case, then please don't tell me because I like it better this way: as Giordano Bruno's said, Se non è vero, è molto ben trovato. :)

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'm confused. Didn't Bloodraven/3EC die in the show? Also I don't recall if it was confirmed or not that the show 3EC is Bloodraven.

The show made it seem like Bloodraven just migrated to Bran when the Others took his mortal body. This is super-reminiscent of  like how in Gene Wolfe’s Citadel of the Autarch, our protagonist took up all the old autarchs’ collective memories at the previous autarch’s death when Severian [spoiler suppressed].  (Martin really likes Wolfe, BTW.)

That's why the autarch was sometimes addressed as Legion, for in him are multitudes, all the living collective memory of those who had held the station before him, with the previous autarch's memories foremost in his mind after he own memories but hardly alone.

So too with Bran. That's why Bran is the only one there who has the actual experience to be king. For one thing, Bloodraven has a lot of direct experience ruling Westeros, but for another Bran has access to earlier memories and earlier history beyond just Bloodraven's own memories. Think about Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Tower of Joy.

That's why Bran told Tyrion about where he got the wheelchair design from. That wasn't a random throwaway line, not this late in the game. It was to prime Tyron so that when he thought about who should rule, he would think of Bran and why Bran had that experience from days long past.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:39 AM, Vashon said:

Dany could always say "Fuck it" to Westeros and the Iron Throne and conquer the richer, larger Essos, which has a nice handy underclass desperate to revolt and follw her. I could easily see her gathering up the Dothraki and using them as a hammer to acquire Norvos and Qohor while also grabbing Volantis.

I mean why go to Westeros at all? That was Viserys' obsession, Dany only sort of cared.

Now this is a Dany book story I'd like to read!

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5 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Poisonous butterflies? I must have missed this.

In Naath - no, that's a real thing. The indigenous population has genetic immunity but any outsider is likely to die. This, by the way, is scientifically perfectly credible. For millennia the border between India and Nepal was virtually impenetrable to humans due to the forest being thickly populated by the anaphalous (?) mosquito. The tribe that lived there were immune, however. It wasn't until the 1950s and the use of DDT that outsiders could have a chance of surviving.

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3 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

In Naath - no, that's a real thing. The indigenous population has genetic immunity but any outsider is likely to die. This, by the way, is scientifically perfectly credible. For millennia the border between India and Nepal was virtually impenetrable to humans due to the forest being thickly populated by the anaphalous (?) mosquito. The tribe that lived there were immune, however. It wasn't until the 1950s and the use of DDT that outsiders could have a chance of surviving.

Thank you. Considering the season, they probably overlooked this, sadly. 

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9 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The show made it seem like Bloodraven just migrated to Bran when the Others took his mortal body. This is super-reminiscent of  like how in Gene Wolfe’s Citadel of the Autarch, our protagonist took up all the old autarchs’ collective memories at the previous autarch’s death when Severian [spoiler suppressed].  (Martin really likes Wolfe, BTW.)

That's why the autarch was sometimes addressed as Legion, for in him are multitudes, all the living collective memory of those who had held the station before him, with the previous autarch's memories foremost in his mind after he own memories but hardly alone.

So too with Bran. That's why Bran is the only one there who has the actual experience to be king. For one thing, Bloodraven has a lot of direct experience ruling Westeros, but for another Bran has access to earlier memories and earlier history beyond just Bloodraven's own memories. Think about Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Tower of Joy.

That's why Bran told Tyrion about where he got the wheelchair design from. That wasn't a random throwaway line, not this late in the game. It was to prime Tyron so that when he thought about who should rule, he would think of Bran and why Bran had that experience from days long past.

Oh! Horror level thought here!

Imagine the last bit of Bran's identity and individuality locked behind a WallTM designed to facilitate and guarantee his transition into the collective. He resists, out of his emotional pack based notion of self, so even as he seees the actions of the 3ED as necessary for the future to become? He watches, with enough remaining empathy, but completely without agency, as the entity he now embodies uses his family, his people and his world like disposable chess pieces.

Masterful.

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13 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Oh! Horror level thought here!

Imagine the last bit of Bran's identity and individuality locked behind a WallTM designed to facilitate and guarantee his transition into the collective. He resists, out of his emotional pack based notion of self, so even as he seees the actions of the 3ED as necessary for the future to become? He watches, with enough remaining empathy, but completely without agency, as the entity he now embodies uses his family, his people and his world like disposable chess pieces.

Masterful.

Holy crap.

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On 6/2/2019 at 4:38 PM, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Bran can't have kids, Jon can't have kids named Stark and well neither can Arya or Sansa. This to me might be the loudest BS alarm for trying to compare the show ending to how the books will end...if none of the 4 surviving Starks can have Stark children...it ends up being about the Starks vanishing. 

Actually, you’re wrong here. 

Sansa would pass the Stark name off to her sons. It’s already happened in the past with previous Starks and it happened with the Lannisters too. Bael Bard had a bastard with the Last Stark’s daughter who he legitimized as a Stark to inherit for him.

All the current Starks and Lannisters are descended from Brandon the Builder and Lann the Clever via the female line although I could always see Sansa marrying a Karstark thereby keeping her line pure wolf.

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On 5/28/2019 at 2:23 AM, Rast-afari said:

Do we? I would think the Lord of Light would prefer Dany than Bran.

 

Not if you go with the plausible theory that the Lord of Light and Bran are the same being. 

 

I mean who said that the Lord of Light was talking in the present to his followers? He could be transmitting messages from the future. And it’s noted that Bloodraven can see Melisandre when she tries to look in her flames.

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26 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Actually, you’re wrong here. 

Sansa would pass the Stark name off to her sons. It’s already happened in the past with previous Starks and it happened with the Lannisters too. Bael Bard had a bastard with the Last Stark’s daughter who he legitimized as a Stark to inherit for him.

All the current Starks and Lannisters are descended from Brandon the Builder and Lann the Clever via the female line although I could always see Sansa marrying a Karstark thereby keeping her line pure wolf.

What Stark or legitimized Stark would Sansa marry?

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9 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

What Stark or legitimized Stark would Sansa marry?

She wouldn't. That's the point. Hers is a powerful enough house that her children would take her name because she could only marry down.

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On 6/4/2019 at 2:58 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

She wouldn't. That's the point. Hers is a powerful enough house that her children would take her name because she could only marry down.

Or she could have a bastard born child and then legitimize him with a royal decree.

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On 6/4/2019 at 5:28 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

She wouldn't. That's the point. Hers is a powerful enough house that her children would take her name because she could only marry down.

Or take Jon's son with whoever he marries and name him the heir.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:53 PM, SteveS_FL said:

Regarding Dothraki:  So we all agree that Jon probably confessed to Greyworm about knifing Dany in the heart since Drogon flew away with the evidence.  But imagine instead if a Dothraki had been the first to hear the story.  Jon killed their Khaleesi, which makes him Khal by their customs.  Her dragon belches fire, Jon emerges unharmed.  The dragon flees.  This adds to "Khal Jon's" prestige in the eyes of the Dothraki.  They defend their new Khal from the Unsullied.   A great fight breaks out.  Of course Jon would have none of this.

The point is  - No, they don't rape and pillage Westeros for revenge's sake.  It's not their way. If anything they fight among themselves briefly and choose a new Khal.  Who then takes them home.  They take home no spoils of war because Dany destroyed anything of value in KL.

Dany made all the Dothraki warriors her Bloodriders which means they are obligated to avenge their Khal.

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Yes, children can inherit their mother's name based on the need for succession. The Hornwood discussion in Clash set this up. The Lannisters could (but won't) do this with the Darrys for the same reason,  because even though Lancel is not of Tywin's line, he is still a Lannister

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On 6/4/2019 at 4:06 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Actually, you’re wrong here. 

Sansa would pass the Stark name off to her sons. It’s already happened in the past with previous Starks and it happened with the Lannisters too. Bael Bard had a bastard with the Last Stark’s daughter who he legitimized as a Stark to inherit for him.

All the current Starks and Lannisters are descended from Brandon the Builder and Lann the Clever via the female line although I could always see Sansa marrying a Karstark thereby keeping her line pure wolf.

The part about the Lannister is true: They are descendants of Ser Joffrey Lydden, who married a Lannister heiress...

But the story of Bael the Bard is nothing but a wildling folktale.

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