Jump to content
miyuki

Do you like Feast and Dance?

Recommended Posts

On 8/29/2019 at 12:23 PM, Ran said:

Yes. I will say I prefer AFfC to ADwD, because I find AFfC more unified thematically. ADwD's first half shares a lot with it, in terms of its thematics, but the second half drifts as the plot begins to move past the AFfC timeframe. Which is fine and necessary, but still, it's why I prefer one to the other.

AFfC and ADwD have several of the most beautiful or atmospheric passages in the whole of the series, as well.

Thank you!

There was a significant tonal shift in Dance right around the chapter where Theon returns to Winterfell and Ramsay and fArya are married.

And the Asha chapters were very weirdly conceived and placed. Like her first chapter feels like it belongs in the last quarter of Feast but the contents of it say something totally different. And then her last chapter reads like a sample chapter out of The Winds of Winter...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 9:39 PM, The Map Guy said:

AFFC and ADWD are suppose to be read together. The fact that they were split by POV, it changes the dynamic a lot.

If put together as it was intended, perhaps (as an example) a AFFC Brienne chapter was suppose to follow a ADWD Jon chapter. The original transition between the two chapters are suppose to be smooth, sharing similar themes, and it factors in to being a great single book.

I was going to say, for me I enjoyed them both more when I read them together as intended.  I followed the list from Boiled Leather and damn did it make a huge difference.

Edited by fire&blood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2019 at 2:23 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Thank you!

There was a significant tonal shift in Dance right around the chapter where Theon returns to Winterfell and Ramsay and fArya are married.

And the Asha chapters were very weirdly conceived and placed. Like her first chapter feels like it belongs in the last quarter of Feast but the contents of it say something totally different. And then her last chapter reads like a sample chapter out of The Winds of Winter...

The whole thing starts to feel like a bunch of loosely connected short stories by the middle of Feast and absolutely through ADWD.  I get that some people really enjoy that, but I find it very unsatisfying as a novel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am re-reading Feast right now, actually, and one thing I think it's a bit unfortunate is that there were no Davos chapters in it. We find out from Cersei that Wyman Manderly has Davos and is asking what to do with him. Three Davos chapters in Feast and one in Dance revealing that Davos was alive and Manderly's scheme would have worked better. It helps reconcile the timeline to have it done the way it was done, but reading Davos's adventures after we know he's been arrested and supposedly executed a book later is a bit meh.

I know there was a comment about the Soiled Knight chapter being perhaps unnecessary, and I thought so, originally since Arianne is a POV character, but after reading that chapter again, the conversation that Arys Oakheart reports between himself and Doran Martell just struck me as being a hell of a lot more important than I had originally thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2019 at 7:43 PM, fire&blood said:

I was going to say, for me I enjoyed them both more when I read them together as intended.  I followed the list from Boiled Leather and damn did it make a huge difference.

I'll take this advice when I reach AFFC on my current re-read. Sounds fun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/16/2019 at 1:39 AM, White Ravens said:

I liked them when they were released.   I liked them more when I reread them combined in the order suggested on the Boiled Leather website. 

https://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crowsa-dance-with-dragons

 

I did this once a long while back. Now I wish there was a way to get the audible tracks to do the same because I end up having to relisten more than anything nowadays. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I am re-reading Feast right now, actually, and one thing I think it's a bit unfortunate is that there were no Davos chapters in it. We find out from Cersei that Wyman Manderly has Davos and is asking what to do with him. Three Davos chapters in Feast and one in Dance revealing that Davos was alive and Manderly's scheme would have worked better. It helps reconcile the timeline to have it done the way it was done, but reading Davos's adventures after we know he's been arrested and supposedly executed a book later is a bit meh.

I know there was a comment about the Soiled Knight chapter being perhaps unnecessary, and I thought so, originally since Arianne is a POV character, but after reading that chapter again, the conversation that Arys Oakheart reports between himself and Doran Martell just struck me as being a hell of a lot more important than I had originally thought.

Whenever GRRM does the old soap opera trick of ending a chapter with a cliffhanger "will he die?" moment, I just roll my eyes.  Its dumb on tv and I think its dumb in a book.    And whened I turn the page and find out that he'd skipped to someone else to leave you hanging, it just made me angry.  Its blatant trickery and manipulation.  I like GRRM's writing as a whole, but there are several things he does way too often that I think are just bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, to many new POVs and IMO way to much meandering, especially with Tyrione and Brienne.  I understand what GRRM was trying to do but they were still very boring to me.  In Dance, on 2nd read, I realized  Dany’s last chapter is extremely important in that it shows her character arc changing while talking to the “grass”.  I missed that on 1st read but overall, some good chapters but to many new POVs and to many slow moving chapters that don’t seem to move the plot along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Raebo said:

For me, to many new POVs and IMO way to much meandering, especially with Tyrione and Brienne.  I understand what GRRM was trying to do but they were still very boring to me.  In Dance, on 2nd read, I realized  Dany’s last chapter is extremely important in that it shows her character arc changing while talking to the “grass”.  I missed that on 1st read but overall, some good chapters but to many new POVs and to many slow moving chapters that don’t seem to move the plot along.

I think there was a lot of character work going on with Brienne and Tyrion (Tyrion coming to terms with his murder of Tywin and Brienne her complicated feelings towards Jaime and all her competing oaths), but yes, completely agree that the plot was meandering at best for both of them.  And considering how much plot still seems to be left and required to finish the books, it's tough for me to reconcile that with all the character work done in AFFC.  

I think what I like more about ADWD is that even though there is something a bit repetitive about Jon's clashes with Bowen Marsh and Dany's with the slavers, it feels like the plot is moving a lot more, with Jon and Dany making decisions that affect the broader world and mark important changes.  In ADWD, Tyrion really only seems to be doing that when he's with Young Griff and Jon Con, which is why I liked those chapters the most out of his and could do with less Penny and Jorah character work.  

While I can appreciate Brienne's character development and the in-depth look at the decimation of the Riverlands due to the War of the 5K, I can't say I really care too much about the broader plot implications of Meribald and Dog, Nimble Dick, Illifer and Longbough, etc.  Whereas I find it easier to care about Jon allowing the wildings through the Wall, provoking Ramsay, taking a loan from the Iron Bank, or Dany's destabilizing actions in Slaver's Bay, or Tyrion's manipulation of Young Griff and Jon Con, etc.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, argonak said:

The whole thing starts to feel like a bunch of loosely connected short stories by the middle of Feast and absolutely through ADWD.  I get that some people really enjoy that, but I find it very unsatisfying as a novel.

I actually feel like A Feast for Crows is more of an actual book. The last third or so of A Dance with Dragons (the part that goes beyond the timeline in Feast) feels like a bunch of short stories.

I think that's why some people hate the Dorne storyline so much. Because, even though it has clear connections to the Tower of Joy mystery, the War for the Dawn and the coming Targaryen civil war between Daenerys and Aegon for us, Dorne is still so separate and apart from the previous Stark-Lannister-Baratheon plot.

At least the Ironborn plots in Feast and Dance took the Ironborn off the benches of being annoying fodder, upgraded them to major players and put them squarely in the three main plotlines of the Game of Thrones, the Dragon Queen and the Long Night.

Even Aegon has entered the picture as he is currently active in his pursuit for the Iron Throne which puts him right in the arena of Cersei, Euron and Stannis.

But Dorne is still dragging its feet. I firmly believe that Dorne's plodding, latecomer status will pay off in The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. But I hope GRRM better deliver in spades for his sake because too many people are quick to dismiss Dorne. Especially in Dream because it appears like the Dornishmen (100% fresh and 100% untouched by war and chaos) will be the backbone of Aegon's army in the war against Daenerys. Sure, there are more Reachmen but they will not be fresh nor will they be all united. Some will go over to Dany, a few are with Stannis and others will belong to Euron.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, argonak said:

Whenever GRRM does the old soap opera trick of ending a chapter with a cliffhanger "will he die?" moment, I just roll my eyes.  Its dumb on tv and I think its dumb in a book.    And whened I turn the page and find out that he'd skipped to someone else to leave you hanging, it just made me angry.  Its blatant trickery and manipulation.  I like GRRM's writing as a whole, but there are several things he does way too often that I think are just bad. 

I totally disagree.

I see nothing wrong with ending chapters on a cliffhanger. Especially since the said cliffhanger is often resolved in either the next character POV chapter or in another POV.

But his writing style is unique and I get not everyone can appreciate that level of suspense or mystery.

I've met people who hate the books because they think that the books are way too driven on POVs and cliffhangers. These people either prefer the entire series to be done in the style of a history book, the Harry Potter-style (told through the eyes of one character with the occasional exception), Lord of the Rings style (impersonal third person, written like a epic poem) or each book to have its own POV.

Idk but whatever. This series is not for them because it supposed to be built like the Canterbury Tales.

Can you imagine being stuck with Eddard and Catelyn for the entirety of A Game of Thrones? A lot of people may be fine with that but then you miss out on all Jon, Daenerys and Bran had to offer in that book.

While Arya's chapters in A Storm of Swords were awesome and strong enough to be their novella, it was a bit too intense and overwhelming. Very samey but...if you say you alternated each Arya chapter with a Sansa or Jon chapter, the book automatically becomes more flavorful. Alternating chapters is the better idea to create an full-fledged, tasteful reading experience but the natural result of that is that there will be cliffhangers between Arya's chapter ending with her being kidnapped by the Hound and the next chapter beginning with Sansa psyching herself up for her wedding day.

This series is built like an anthology of short stories that are all moving in the same direction in different vehicles and talking about similar things in different tones and from different perspectives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I totally disagree.

I see nothing wrong with ending chapters on a cliffhanger. Especially since the said cliffhanger is often resolved in either the next character POV chapter or in another POV.

But his writing style is unique and I get not everyone can appreciate that level of suspense or mystery.

I've met people who hate the books because they think that the books are way too driven on POVs and cliffhangers. These people either prefer the entire series to be done in the style of a history book, the Harry Potter-style (told through the eyes of one character with the occasional exception), Lord of the Rings style (impersonal third person, written like a epic poem) or each book to have its own POV.

Idk but whatever. This series is not for them because it supposed to be built like the Canterbury Tales.

Can you imagine being stuck with Eddard and Catelyn for the entirety of A Game of Thrones? A lot of people may be fine with that but then you miss out on all Jon, Daenerys and Bran had to offer in that book.

While Arya's chapters in A Storm of Swords were awesome and strong enough to be their novella, it was a bit too intense and overwhelming. Very samey but...if you say you alternated each Arya chapter with a Sansa or Jon chapter, the book automatically becomes more flavorful. Alternating chapters is the better idea to create an full-fledged, tasteful reading experience but the natural result of that is that there will be cliffhangers between Arya's chapter ending with her being kidnapped by the Hound and the next chapter beginning with Sansa psyching herself up for her wedding day.

This series is built like an anthology of short stories that are all moving in the same direction in different vehicles and talking about similar things in different tones and from different perspectives.

I can live with the POV changes as long as they follow the same overall plot arc.  Hell it makes things interesting to read how differnet people see and feel the same events.  I'll even put up with a few multi-weaved plot arcs.  But what is just weak writing is creating so many different story threads that your plotline turns into a myrish rug and you can't ever finish it.

And to me, what is absolutely NOT interesting or good writing is pretending someone is going to die," duh duh duuuuuuh"  style, and then not coming back to them for SEVEN REAL TIME YEARS.  Then surprise! Everything is fine and they've been eating eel soup for the last who knows how long.  That's silly soap opera childish writing if you ask me.  Its cheap and lazy.  And GRRM is a better writer than that.  Some of his stuff is so good it can draw you in until you feel bad for men who are one step short of monsters. If a writer creates a cliffhanger that is easily resolved in a later chapter, then why the hell did you bother with it?  End a chapter satisfyingly.

Its a cheap soap operat tactic that developed to keep people coming back day after day to the same tv show so they'd have to watch laundry soap ads.  So I really don't enjoy it in a novel.  Fully fleshed arcs or progressions belong in novels with character AND story development.

edit: sorry if I get a little heated.  I like the books a lot and the things I don't like about them can make me a bit too passionate I guess.

Edited by argonak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/16/2019 at 1:39 AM, White Ravens said:

I liked them when they were released.   I liked them more when I reread them combined in the order suggested on the Boiled Leather website. 

https://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crowsa-dance-with-dragons

 

Boiled leather has been down for days. Would you (or anyone) happen to have that list of POVs handy? I did the combined read following the order provided by A Feast with Dragons, but that seemed off to me. Like Jon I in ADwD shouldn't come before Sam I in AFfC.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had two main problems with Feast at the time it got published:

One was the missing main characters from the previous three books, the other was the increase in the number of secondary and tertiary characters and the meandering of some of the secondary character arcs, the reason for which I (back then) didn't get.

Since Dance got out and brought back the characters missing in Feast the first problem (missing characters) has been mostly solved for me. Just put both books together and their chapters in the proper order, like mentioned above.

The second problem (number of characters and meandering secondary character arcs) took longer for me to come to grips with (and I still haven't completely).

Back then (when the books came out) I didn't understand why I was being forced by the author to follow a disagreeable bloke like Victarion or a basically decent but completely humorless and eternally unsucessful Brienne through chapter after chapter of never getting anywhere (or even Tyrion who basically is an interesting char but has been going through so many convolutions on his journey in DWD that I was mentally screaming too much - too much! Less is more!) Not to mention the 'one-off' POVs and the Dorne stuff that (so far) hasn't gotten anywhere either.

Only through this forum did I understand that even seemingly random storylines all contain nuggets of information that make sense in the bigger picture of the story.

In other words: The chapters I disliked - when you come down to it - really are exposition. But since GRRM has limited his method of storytelling to exclusively and only tell the story through POV - he has no choice but to tell the exposition parts through POV also. Which means new secondary or even 'one-off' POVs have to pop up whenever the author wants to tells us some some important information but can't steer one of the main characters into place to stumble upon it.

Once I realized that I had far less problems with these secondary and tertiary characters and that their stories sometimes don't go anywhere. They are not meant to go somewhere. They are vehicles to convey to me some sort of hidden but important information.

So now I simply ignore the 'character' parts of these secondary stories and just look for the info that the chapters are secretly containing. And voila the chapters make sense and don't annoy me half as much anymore.

Edited by Amris
Spelling and grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Amris said:

I had two main problems with Feast at the time it got published:

One was the missing main characters from the previous three books, the other was the increase in the number of secondary and tertiary characters and the meandering of some of the secondary character arcs, the reason for which I (back then) didn't get.

Since Dance got out and brought back the characters missing in Feast the first problem (missing characters) has been mostly solved for me. Just put both books together and their chapters in the proper order, like mentioned above.

The second problem (number of characters and meandering secondary character arcs) took longer for me to come to grips with (and I still haven't completely).

Back then (when the books came out) I didn't understand why I was being forced by the author to follow a disagreeable bloke like Victarion or a basically decent but completely humorless and eternally unsucessful Brienne through chapter after chapter of never getting anywhere (or even Tyrion who basically is an interesting char but has been going through so many convolutions on his journey in DWD that I was mentally screaming too much - too much! Less is more!) Not to mention the 'one-off' POVs and the Dorne stuff that (so far) hasn't gotten anywhere either.

Only through this forum did I understand that even seemingly random storylines all contain nuggets of information that make sense in the bigger picture of the story.

In other words: The chapters I disliked - when you come down to it - really are exposition. But since GRRM has limited his method of storytelling to exclusively and only tell the story through POV - he has no choice but to tell the exposition parts through POV also. Which means new secondary or even 'one-off' POVs have to pop up whenever the author wants to tells us some some important information but can't steer one of the main characters into place to stumble upon it.

Once I realized that I had far less problems with these secondary and tertiary characters and that their stories sometimes don't go anywhere. They are not meant to go somewhere. They are vehicles to convey to me some sort of hidden but important information.

So now I simply ignore the 'character' parts of these secondary stories and just look for the info that the chapters are secretly containing. And voila the chapters make sense and don't annoy me half as much anymore.

The one-off POV of Arys is completely unnecessary. That chapter could have easily been narrated by Arianne. The fact that it isn't sort of defies logic as Arianne is there the whole entire time. There's not a part of Arys' POV that Arianne isn't privy towards.

The prologue POVs are cool. But what other one-off POVs are you talking about? Melisandre? Areo? They are no one-off, they're being positioned to be the main POV at the Wall and in Dorne now that Jon is dead and Arianne is leaving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Feast, but more so Dance, are a different story. No more the petty war for the IT. In Dance, the true Ice and Fire war is taking shape. About everything before looks distraction, secondary, shallow. Besides, Davos and the Manderlys chapters are my preferred.

The more I re-read the books, the more the 1st 3 look boring in comparison of the latter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked A Dance With Dragons.  Dance is one of the strongest volumes in the collection.  But A Feast for Crows was the weakest of the collection.  All the books are necessary reading if you want to understand the story but it is understandable why we all liked Dance better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/11/2019 at 2:00 PM, Raebo said:

For me, to many new POVs and IMO way to much meandering, especially with Tyrione and Brienne.  I understand what GRRM was trying to do but they were still very boring to me.  In Dance, on 2nd read, I realized  Dany’s last chapter is extremely important in that it shows her character arc changing while talking to the “grass”.  I missed that on 1st read but overall, some good chapters but to many new POVs and to many slow moving chapters that don’t seem to move the plot along.

This. She is spending time alone with her dragon. The nature of which is beginning to rub off on her. Dragons plant no trees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The one-off POV of Arys is completely unnecessary. That chapter could have easily been narrated by Arianne. The fact that it isn't sort of defies logic as Arianne is there the whole entire time. There's not a part of Arys' POV that Arianne isn't privy towards.

She isn't there the whole time, though, which doesn't make the chapter completely unnecessary. Arianne was not privy to Arys and Doran's talk and we don't know how much Arys told Arianne about it other than that Doran will be taking him and Myrcella to the Water Gardens when he leaves. 

That conversation is I think the single most important thing in that chapter. And it just occurred to me now, on this latest re-read. Put that together with the Queenmaker chapter and Hotah showing up to put an end to Arianne's schemes and Myrcella's injury and you got something else entirely. If anything, I think the conversation reveals a bit more about Doran's character.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×