US Politics - Turtles crawl, the constipation sensation that's gripping the nation.

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

. 

Let me ask you a similar question then. What happens when you promise the world and deliver a bag of beans, especially when the bag beans was always going to be the most likely end?

Obviously that's going to disappoint some people.  

On the healthcare issue specifically, I think the general public can come around to single payer.  Especially if there's a Democratic president who supports it.   And you know what?  Maybe come 2022 some moc's will have to get on board or get primaried.  Or they pass a public option because it's what they can get and the disappointed 45% or whatever of the country who currently supports m4a can continue to fight for it and elect progressive candidates.

I'm not going to stop wanting single payer just because a public option gets passed as a compromise.

By your logic we shouldn't even be having this discussion because any hope of any of this died with the ACA.

[Tywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I'm not going to stop wanting single payer just because a public option gets passed as a compromise.

By your logic we shouldn't even be having this discussion because any hope of any of this died with the ACA.

No. See here:

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And often times it's unwise to show your real hand. If you want single payer, it might be smarter to achieve in several steps rather than ask for it all at once.

Tactically speaking, if you're at A and want to get to Z, might it not be wiser to first say let's get to be B or C? Or sell E to get C in the end? Change is hard for most people, so selling them small amounts of change at a time tends to fair better than flipping up the entire system when no one really knows what's behind the mystery door. And as Kal said previously, it's smarter to set reasonable expectations rather than promising something no one thinks can actually pass right now. This isn't about stopping at just a public option. It's about building a bridge to single payer or M4A, and sometimes you've got to Trojan that s*** in. 

Cliche as it is, politics is a marathon, not a sprint. You wouldn't train for a marathon by trying to raise your 100 meter dash time, would you?

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Fez said:

And there's your mistake right there. There's less persuadable voters than there used to be, but they still exist. And ignoring them is an incredibly stupid mistake. It's not all about GOTY, the Democratic base isn't enough to win a national election by itself (neither is the Republican base). It's also about persuasion.

Untitled Goose Game won GOTY and I don't see behaving like that goose winning many votes :p

On your earlier point about age - I think Bloomberg is in a similar boat to Warren, although they are of similar age to Biden and Sanders their voices haven't changed much yet - they sound largely the same as during their middle age

[Zorral]

53 minutes ago, Fez said:

Just. Fucking. Looking at. The. Fucking. 2018. Election Returns. And. Fucking. Compare. Them. To The. Fucking. 2016 Election Returns. And. Fucking Hell. Compare. Them. To the. Fucking. Previous. Fucking. Elections. As Well. While Your. Fucking. At It. Voters. Are Not. Fucking. Static. Fucking. Blocks.

Fuck.

Hello? so how in hell did the Squad get in there. hmmm?  Joke joke joke.

U just don't get it that people who aren't you really want CHANGE.

[Kalbear]

21 minutes ago, Zorral said:

U just don't get it that people who aren't you really want CHANGE.

I get it, but I don't think you get how many people out there don't really give a shit. Or if they do give a shit, it's about things that you don't remotely care about, like the war on christmas or standing up at football games or how Christians are persecuted. 

[Jace, Extat]

45 minutes ago, Zorral said:

 

U just don't get it that people who aren't you really want CHANGE.

Want doesn't get.

[Week]

Bernie kinda apologizes for Bernie Bros ... And then plays the victim. eta - This is just a stupid format. I don't know what would actually be a decent format to actually convey knowledge, information, and gravitas.

Why am I watching this?

[DMC]

My main worry about a backlash to a Sanders presidency can be summed up in the different styles between Obama 2008 and Sanders 2020 (and 2016).  Obama abided by the classic maxim of campaigning in poetry and governing in prose.  It's why even though a significant percentage of Democrats are at least disappointed by his administration's policy outcomes, he remains incredibly popular among Democrats.  And - important to note - the loudest complainers of Obama's presidency being too "centrist" tend to be avid Sanders supporters.  Anyway, Obama may have promised big "change we can believe in," but he was sure never to really specify what that change would be, so it's harder to get pissed off at him when he smacked into the ocean DC gridlock. 

In contrast Sanders is campaigning in prose.  He's promising specific policies - and moreover promising specific policies that would represent fundamental changes across a host of policy areas that are just frankly not realistic.  What happens in the incredible likelihood that a Sanders administration encounters the same institutional constraints and comes up almost entirely bare on these promises?  If Obama provoked the backlash he did from the right, what kind of backlash will there be to what will be painted as broad failures of the first "socialist" president?  How will all those supporters of his frustrated with Obama's "centrism" in governing react?  I don't like thinking about it and what it means longterm for the trajectory of American politics.

[Zorral]

I have no worries about any frackin' backlash to a DEM nominee like Warren or Sanders.  Frackin' NO WAY NO FRACKIN Way.  Where the hell do you all think we are RIGHT THE FRACKIN' NOW?  If you roll wit MAGA right, you're good, of course.

Also you know, Bedbug campaigned on issues that we all thought couldn't win . . . . 

IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE.

See you all at the end of the world while you all think by being refusniks of people who have the courage to speak of change because it will all go back to the way it used to be for you and your cozy white family homes, your 401 k, your opportunity to ly the eff out of the country coz you think you have enough money to do so, and you can board a plane after all coz your digital signature is perfect (I was told during our primary here that -- for the first time we used digital sign in, that my messy digital tablet signature didn't match my decades of WRITTEN IN PEN signatures didn't match), and, after all, nobody wants you in their house after all.

Look at the history of nazi Germany if you think this is exaggeration.

 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Look at the history of nazi Germany if you think this is exaggeration.

I think your own polemical exaggeration and severe rhetoric evokes Nazi Germany all by itself.

[Zorral]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think your own polemical exaggeration and severe rhetoric evokes Nazi Germany all by itself.

  Even during a week in which 2000 former justice department people condemn Barr. . . .

 

[Darzin]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I have no worries about any frackin' backlash to a DEM nominee like Warren or Sanders.  Frackin' NO WAY NO FRACKIN Way.  Where the hell do you all think we are RIGHT THE FRACKIN' NOW?  If you roll wit MAGA right, you're good, of course.

Also you know, Bedbug campaigned on issues that we all thought couldn't win . . . . 

IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE.

See you all at the end of the world while you all think by being refusniks of people who have the courage to speak of change because it will all go back to the way it used to be for you and your cozy white family homes, your 401 k, your opportunity to ly the eff out of the country coz you think you have enough money to do so, and you can board a plane after all coz your digital signature is perfect (I was told during our primary here that -- for the first time we used digital sign in, that my messy digital tablet signature didn't match my decades of WRITTEN IN PEN signatures didn't match), and, after all, nobody wants you in their house after all.

Look at the history of nazi Germany if you think this is exaggeration.

 

Yeah look at the history of Nazi Germany where the KPD refused to work with the moderates and let the Nazis walk in. I'm not a Bernie fan but if Bernie gets the nom I'm voting for him, I'm not a Bloomberg fan but if he get the nomination you bet I'm voting for him an you better too.  

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

I get it, but I don't think you get how many people out there don't really give a shit. Or if they do give a shit, it's about things that you don't remotely care about, like the war on christmas or standing up at football games or how Christians are persecuted. 

Its a real problem when (yes - generalisations ahead) 40% of the population want rabid racism, the destruction of social services and explicitly cruel authoritarianism, 30% of the country want the status quo from 10 years ago with racism at least veiled and some progressive social policies, 20% want genuine social democratic change and attempts at racial justice, 10% don't engage with politics at all....and you wind up a situation where the plurality can be a winner that takes all. If the 30% and the 20% can't find some way to work together, the 40% wins by default.

Of course its a gross simplification, but the core point is sound. More people want "Not Trump" than want "Trump", but there's a real risk of them refusing to work together.

[Fragile Bird]

3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

No*

*It's not constitutional

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I had to go out and catch Pokemon for a while.

I always understood that the police can stop whoever they want as long as it's reasonable. I don't think it's unconstitutional.

Every city in North America pretty well stops more PoC than anyone else. They don't necessarily frisk as well, but they often frisk.

[Zorral]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-18/bloomberg-campaign-says-it-s-a-two-man-race-for-the-nomination

How does this joy happen, hmmm? You really think this is going to do you any more good than whatever?

While bedbug goes for him with being jewish, short and LIBBBBBERAL takin' away ur gunz.  Anyone thinking Bloomie is gonna save us from anything is an idiot.

Only we ourselves, by getting out of our fones will save us.

[Fragile Bird]

Question - can Democrats retake the Senate?

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I had to go out and catch Pokemon for a while.

I always understood that the police can stop whoever they want as long as it's reasonable. I don't think it's unconstitutional.

Every city in North America pretty well stops more PoC than anyone else. They don't necessarily frisk as well, but they often frisk.

Yeah, but NYPD during Bloomberg's tenure escalated the use of Terry stops to an unprecedented level.  And if 70-90% of the people they're stopping and searching are (a) innocent and (b) people of color it's kind of hard to argue that the searches are reasonable. 

I don't think anyone doubled down on the inherent racism of stop and frisk more than Bloomberg did.  

[IheartIheartTesla]

Like I said before, he also had the muslim surveillance program going on, which was not only racist but also resulted in little to no good intelligence. He has never apologized for that nonsense.

It was judged to be constitutional though, which just tells me that 'national security' is the true scourge of the constitution. Also Bloomberg sucks.

[Zorral]

24 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Question - can Democrats retake the Senate?

not unless the establishment recognizes - or cares that Their Usual For The Last Umppity Play It Safe Years To Keep Us Really Old White Guys As The Power Of This Party is a total failure.

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Question - can Democrats retake the Senate? 

Yes, but it's too early for polls to be meaningful so there isn't a good estimate of the odds. A lot depends on the presidential nominee and which people will be motivated to come out and vote.