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Did Tywin order the Mountain to rape Elia and smash her head?

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If it was personal there'd be further evidence of it, he'd have been planning their end, not trying to make nice. These theories mostly seem to exist because people want to hate Tywin for more reasons than the text provides them.

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Posted (edited)

Could had noble Tywin Lannister really done that? I wonder.

"There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool."

"The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope."

“When soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their lord commander.”

His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."
But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister. "Was it a soft silk pillow that slew Robb Stark?"

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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35 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope

Very ironic that he would say this to the very person who knows he would give a command to rape, because he did with Tysha. 

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13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. 

TWoIaF, The Fall of the Dragons - The End

“The Red Keep was soon breached, but in the chaos, misfortune soon fell upon Elia of Dorne and her children, Rhaenys and Aegon. It is tragic that the blood spilled in war may as readily be innocent as it is guilty, and that those who ravished and murdered Princess Elia escaped justice. It is not known who murdered Princess Rhaenys in her bed, or smashed the infant Prince Aegon’s head against a wall. Some whisper it was done at Aerys’s own command when he learned that Lord Lannister had taken up Robert’s cause, while others suggest that Elia did it herself for fear of what would happen to her children in the hands of her dead husband’s enemies.

Love how Yandel got everything wrong then decided to write his own version of history to absolve the Lannisters from any wrongdoing. This is why I find it really hard to rely on anything TWoIaF for the Aerys period up to basically this passage. 

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When I posted here regularly a few years ago, I thought there was a consensus that Tywin's statements regarding his own motivations can't be trusted, and that his real motivations are a lot more emotional than he lets on. I guess people have moved away from that idea.

The fact is that Tywin has used rape as a weapon before, it's not shocking that he would have done so here, as he seems to claim to Tyrion. He also claims that 1. He didn't mention Elia when giving Clegane and Lorch their orders, and 2. He didn't know quite how bad Clegane was at the time.

I don't believe the first claim, he marched to KL with the intention of taking the city and killing Aerys and his heirs, he would have considered what orders needed to be given to his men, and wasn't likely to forget that she existed, the excuse that Tywin was concerned about Eddard Stark arriving seems very hollow. Tywin is generally quite thorough, and would have thought of details like this, in the prep for the Red Wedding, the fate of every attendee was considered: Tywin mentions that Cat was supposed to be captured, details like this are considered and specified ahead of time.

The claim that he didn't know enough about Gregor to know what he would do also makes little sense to me, you don't send 2 guys to take charge of important political assassinations (of children) unless you know who they are and if they are up to it. Tywin specifically chose these two because he knew they would not balk at murdering children (and highborn women), so it seems strange for him to then be surprised that the job was done brutally.

All that being said, I am not certain he did order Elia to be killed/raped, but I am pretty certain that he intended for her to die an unpleasant death, if he wanted any other outcome he would have specified that. I'm sure Tywin was happy that he did not have to even speak the words that resulted in that outcome though.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Very ironic that he would say this to the very person who knows he would give a command to rape, because he did with Tysha. 

It is very important to place this conversation in the proper chronological order. Tyrion does NOT know when this discussion takes place that Tysha was a victim of rape. He believes Jaime's lie that Tysha was a whore who pretended to love him and married him and had sex with him as part of an elaborate charade.Tyrion believes the rape was something Tysha participates in as a continuation of her prostitution. It is only when Jaime reveals the truth to him on the night of his escape from his execution that Tyrion fully realizes the reality of what happened, including his father forcing him to participate in a brutal gang rape of his own wife. When Tywin tells Tyrion "even you will not accuse me of giving that command" Tyrion still believes the rape he participated in at his father's order was "just" a paid consensual  act of a prostitute.

There is indeed irony - and deception - in Tywin's statement. He knows he purposefully gave a order to rape Tysha, and is therefore quite capable of having given the order to rape Elia, but he also knows that this is something he has to hide from his son.

Edited by SFDanny

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On 3/22/2020 at 9:56 PM, Travis said:

I think he did. My #1 reason is because he meant for Cersei to marry Rhaegar, but that was taken from him. So at the end of the rebellion, the Targaryens were all but defeated (and it was almost all but certain Robert would replace him as King), he got his revenge and then married her to Robert. His eye was on the Throne and the Martells stole that from him. It was pure revenge.

My problem with this motivation is that by the time of the rebellion, it makes little sense for Tywin to still be upset that Elia was chosen to be Rhaegar's bride instead of Cersei. In fact, he should have been happy that he dodged a massive bullet instead.

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

It is very important to place this conversation in the proper chronological order. Tyrion does NOT know when this discussion takes place that Tysha was a victim of rape. He believes Jaime's lie that Tysha was a whore who pretended to love him and married him and had sex with him as part of an elaborate charade.

Indeed. I'm not trying to suggest Tyrion knew, I'm just saying it is ironic that the man that actually did command a horrendous rape is acting as if, even Tyrion, wouldn't suggest he would do that. Tyrion, of all people, when it was him that was lied to. 

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

There is indeed irony - and deception - in Tywin's statement. He knows he purposefully gave a order to rape Tysha, and is therefore quite capable of having given the order to rape Elia, but he also knows that this is something he has to hide from his son.

Yep. 

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On 3/24/2020 at 2:40 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Gregor was still a young man, his reputation was not yet set.

 

Gregor was an eight foot tall giant who had already been fighting for sometime due to his physicality, whose entire family had died under suspicious circumstances, except for the brother who Tywin himself had taken who had had half his face burned off. And Gregor ain't subtle. 

And Tywin did send Gregor to murder an infant. 

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29 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. I'm not trying to suggest Tyrion knew, I'm just saying it is ironic that the man that actually did command a horrendous rape is acting as if, even Tyrion, wouldn't suggest he would do that. Tyrion, of all people, when it was him that was lied to. 

It should be taken into account though, that Tywin is a massive elitist. For him the difference between Elia, a highborn princess, and Tysha, a commoner, is like a difference between people and cattle. Tywin himself might not see the irony of his statement.

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

It is only when Jaime reveals the truth to him on the night of his escape from his execution that Tyrion fully realizes the reality of what happened, including his father forcing him to participate in a brutal gang rape of his own wife.

No one forced Tyrion, by his own admission he could have said no. He chose to participate because of the how fucked up their society is.

It is possible Tyrion has raped many of the women he has paid to sleep with. Given he's the son of the most powerful Lord in the realm and he sends out armed men to bring him whores it is possible that many women, like Tysha or the women he sleeps with in ADWD, have no choice in the matter.

Tyrion's actions in ADWD are more shocking as a result, as past examples he could claim he was ignorant that such women like Tysha existed. But the revelation that Tysha was not a whore should have opened his eyes to the sex slave at Illyrio's and the whore with the whipped back he slept with.

Quote

There is indeed irony - and deception - in Tywin's statement. He knows he purposefully gave a order to rape Tysha, and is therefore quite capable of having given the order to rape Elia, but he also knows that this is something he has to hide from his son.

Not quite. There is an interview from GRRM with regard to this where he points out that from Tywin's perspective Tysha was a whore, as he thought no one could love his son.

It is not really deception from Tywin's POV.

 

GRRM: He’s furious at Lord Tywin because he found out the truth about his first wife and what happened to her, and Tywin keeps calling her a whore — which she is by Lord Tywin’s logic. Lord Tywin is convinced that since he doesn’t love Tyrion, then no one can possibly love Tyrion. So it’s obviously some lower-class girl who’s just trying to get the dwarf into bed because he was a Lannister, so she could become a lady and have money and live in a castle and all that.

 

7 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Gregor was an eight foot tall giant who had already been fighting for sometime due to his physicality,

That does not make him a monster. His younger brother is almost of the same build and ability and I don't think he would have done what the Mountain did in that scanrio.

7 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

 

whose entire family had died under suspicious circumstances,

We have no idea when the sister and father died. It may have been before he was knighted, it may have been after.

Would Rhaegar have knighted someone who was thought to have murdered his father and sister?

7 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

 

And Tywin did send Gregor to murder an infant. 

He did. He was ordered to do that. There are all kinds of murderers. Some who do what they are told and no more, some who murder for sport.

I don't think it is inconceivable that Tywin did not think it a possibility, or even that the sickly Elia would be there. This is what nannies and other ladies in waiting are for.

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2 hours ago, Dofs said:

My problem with this motivation is that by the time of the rebellion, it makes little sense for Tywin to still be upset that Elia was chosen to be Rhaegar's bride instead of Cersei. In fact, he should have been happy that he dodged a massive bullet instead.

Hardly, With Tywin firmly under the Targ camp, there would be no robellion or would be easily crushed. Aerys words and actions huniliated Tywin and he's not someone who would let that go.

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15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hardly, With Tywin firmly under the Targ camp, there would be no robellion or would be easily crushed. Aerys words and actions huniliated Tywin and he's not someone who would let that go.

Tywin not being in the Targ camp was because Tywin didn't want to be in the Targ camp, otherwise he would have simply joined the loyalists and crushed the rebellion. While Cersei being Rhaegar's wife would have forced him to join Aerys, the side he personally hated, instead of giving him the ability to choose.

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Tywin not being in the Targ camp was because Tywin didn't want to be in the Targ camp, otherwise he would have simply joined the loyalists and crushed the rebellion. While Cersei being Rhaegar's wife would have forced him to join Aerys, the side he personally hated, instead of giving him the ability to choose.

And Tywin was perfectly fine with that as long as his grandkid were to be King.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No one forced Tyrion, by his own admission he could have said no. He chose to participate because of the how fucked up their society is.

I'm interested in where you see Tyrion say he really could have said no to his father. Tyrion is thirteen and totally dependent on his father for everything. What I read makes it clear Tywin was in total control of the rape of Tysha. What Tyrion does or does not do when he grows up is a totally different topic.

Quote

"He sent the girl away?"

"He did better than that," Tyrion said. "First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time."

"After Jaime had made his confession to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she ..." he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."  (AGoT 483 bold emphasis added)

 

Quote

His brother looked away. "Tysha," he said softly.

"Tysha?" His stomach tightened. "What of her?"

"She was no whore. I never brought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was what she seemed to be. A crofter's daughter, chance met on the road."

Tyrion could hear the faint  sound of his own breath whistling hollowly through the scar of his nose. Jaime could not meet his eyes. Tysha. He tried to remember what she had looked like. A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. "My wife," he croaked. "She wed me."

"For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock. All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so ... so it would not be a lie, not truly, and ... he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later ..."

"Thank you?" Tyrion's voice choked. "He gave her to his guards. A barracks full of guards. He made me ... watch. Aye, and more than watch. I took her too ... my wife ..."

"I never knew he would do that. You must believe me." (ASoS 873) bold emphasis added

Tywin makes up the lie about Tysha being a whore and commands Jaime to tell it to Tyrion. Tywin brings Tysha to the barracks. Tywin gives her to men he commands and controls. Tywin makes Tyrion watch. Tywin tells Tyrion to take Tysha as well. Tywin orchestrates the rape and is in control of it the entire time. He provides the money to make is seem to be a paid consensual act. It is entirely his sharp lesson to Tyrion to show him that no one can really love him and that if and who he marries him is entirely up to Tywin. The idea Either Tyrion or Tysha have any real consent in this brutal act is ridiculous. It is, however, proof that Tywin is willing to use rape as a weapon, and that he has given orders to do the same. 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not quite. There is an interview from GRRM with regard to this where he points out that from Tywin's perspective Tysha was a whore, as he thought no one could love his son.

It is not really deception from Tywin's POV.

 

GRRM: He’s furious at Lord Tywin because he found out the truth about his first wife and what happened to her, and Tywin keeps calling her a whore — which she is by Lord Tywin’s logic. Lord Tywin is convinced that since he doesn’t love Tyrion, then no one can possibly love Tyrion. So it’s obviously some lower-class girl who’s just trying to get the dwarf into bed because he was a Lannister, so she could become a lady and have money and live in a castle and all that.

What Tywin believes explains his reasons for the rape. It doesn't change the fact it is rape. Tysha was not a whore. There is nothing that suggests she consents to the attack on her. Far from it. We know it is used to destroy Tyrion and Tysha's marriage. He orders gang rape of his son's wife in order to do so and to teach both their "proper place." What could possibly give a reader the idea that Tywin's claim he wouldn't do the same to Elia? Whether or not he actually did is another question, but we know he is more than capable of doing so because he has done so already.

Edited by SFDanny

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Tywin was perfectly fine with that as long as his grandkid were to be King.

Tywin has willingly abandoned his position as Hand because of Aerys. Clearly he has a limit up to witch he can tolerate things for the sake of power and prestige of his House. And Aerys has reached it. At the point of the rebellion Tywin obviously wasn't reminiscing of the long gone opportunity to be on the side of a king whom he intensely hated.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

What Tywin believes explains his reasons for the rape. It doesn't change the fact it is rape. Tysha was not a whore. There is nothing that suggests she consents to the attack on her. Far from it. We know it is used to destroy Tyrion and Tysha's marriage. He orders gang rape of his son's wife in order to do so and to teach both their "proper place." What could possibly give a reader the idea that Tywin's claim he wouldn't do the same to Elia? Whether or not he actually did is another question, but we know he is more than capable of doing so because he has done so already.

Indeed & Tywin didn't truly think her a whore, but a gold-digger. He tells Jaime this is no different than a whore to get Jaime to go along with it, but Tywin knows the difference. 

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32 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin has willingly abandoned his position as Hand because of Aerys. Clearly he has a limit up to witch he can tolerate things for the sake of power and prestige of his House. And Aerys has reached it. At the point of the rebellion Tywin obviously wasn't reminiscing of the long gone opportunity to be on the side of a king whom he intensely hated.

Why not?? Tywin seemed ready to join Aerys until the Bells. That's when he closed his doors.  Nevertheless, nothing of that changes  that the night  was a humiliation and Tywin is very petty.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

I'm interested in where you see Tyrion say he really could have said no to his father.

From Tyrion.

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

 

Tyrion believes he could have said no. He even thinks it is within his power to have stopped it. He did not due believing she was a whore and being aroused, not out of fear of what his father might do to him.

Personally I think the rape may well have happened between Tysha and the Guardsmen even if Tyrion tried to stop it, but he thinks he could have stopped it and given he never tried we will never know.

As for Tyrion's involvement he thinks he could have defied his father, he chose not to and the choice, according to Tyrion, is not down to fear of his father.

Tywin's actions are still reprehensible. But Tyrion is no victim in this, he chooses to rape someone he claimed to have loved because he was aroused. He did not try to stop it, makes no mention of being 1) physically made to do it 2) threatened to do it 3) being scared of the unsaid consequences of not doing it. One of the three would excuse him, but none, as of yet, are applicable to Tyrion.

Tyrion is a loved character so of course people want to shift the blame, but the people who do are missing the point. This society was rotten to the core, the nobility looked at the peasants as talkative livestock.

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl.

Time and time again to many in the fandom try to paint only the antagonists as doing bad deeds, while the truth was they were all pretty much awful.

When Tyrion rapes the two women in ADWD we are not supposed to think these are brand new events in Tyrion's life, we are supposed to realize that Tyrion has probably, ignorantly so, raped multiple women in his lifetime without truly realizing it.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

 

Tyrion is thirteen and totally dependent on his father for everything.

Clearly not. If that was the case he'd never have married Tysha in the first place.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

What I read makes it clear Tywin was in total control of the rape of Tysha. What Tyrion does or does not do when he grows up is a totally different topic.

Yes, Tywin was in control of the guardsmen raping Tysha. Tyrion had a say in his own actions. He went along with it, and not out of fear but simply because he was told she was a whore and beleived it.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

What Tywin believes explains his reasons for the rape. It doesn't change the fact it is rape.

Yup. At no point have I said otherwise. It is very clearly an evil act ordered by Tywin on an innocent.

Either you are misreading what I have written or you are trying to create some type of strawman argument here.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

 What could possibly give a reader the idea that Tywin's claim he wouldn't do the same to Elia?

  • She is nobility.
  • There is no lesson to be learnt here. He does not want it to be known that he was responsible for ordering the death of the children. Tyrion's was a lesson, there is no lesson here.
1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

 

Whether or not he actually did is another question, but we know he is more than capable of doing so because he has done so already.

Yeah, I fully agree. He is more than capable of ordering someone raped. Again, I don't know if you have misread what I have actually wrote or purposefully created strawman arguments.

But Tywin evil actions tend to be for a purpose. There is no purpose for this, it (the murdered of the children) is meant to be a covert action which if done right will be blamed on others.

Westeros is a misogynistic society, Tywin is not going know that Elia was likely the last person consulted about her and Rhaegar's marriage. Seems unlikely he is going to want to seek vengeance on her for it.

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