Which one of Tywin´s children you respect the most ?

[Springwatch]

I can't choose one; I can't even think 'least worst'.

[frenin]

41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There is no redemption arc in Jaime’s story. Readers tend to think this from the moment we get Jaime’s PoV. But Jaime is the same, the difference is, at a certain point we are inside his head, and that changes everything. 

Certainly not from me tho, i saw him as a caharming bastard the first time, the Aerys bit never troubled me soo, and i certainly see him as a charming bastard now. One who has little to no repairs when it comes to killing children.

[Universal Sword Donor]

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

Certainly not from me tho, i saw him as a caharming bastard the first time, the Aerys bit never troubled me soo, and i certainly see him as a charming bastard now. One who has little to no repairs when it comes to killing children.

Jaime certainly has his faults but GRRM wrote that scene in a way that people react to viscerally without giving much second thought. He even talks about it:

"Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man."

Cersei can say whatever she likes about outsmarting a seven year old. However Jon Arryn already died investigating the Twincest and she knew he was investigating (if not why). So if Bran starts babbling about Jaime and Cersei "wrestling" in the tower, it gives Stannis an opening to deliver his "proofs" he's gathered. Jaime definitely made a rash decision, but it was the right one to keep his sister and children safe.

 

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Jaime certainly has his faults but GRRM wrote that scene in a way that people react to viscerally without giving much second thought. He even talks about it:

"Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man."

Cersei can say whatever she likes about outsmarting a seven year old. However Jon Arryn already died investigating the Twincest and she knew he was investigating (if not why). So if Bran starts babbling about Jaime and Cersei "wrestling" in the tower, it gives Stannis an opening to deliver his "proofs" he's gathered. Jaime definitely made a rash decision, but it was the right one to keep his sister and children safe.

 

I know what he has said but we have Jaime's thoughts on his family and he certainly was completely unattached to them, he only starts trying to build some relationship with his kid in AFFC, so no, that was done only to save  his and Cersei's necks which makes it a no no in my book. I don't know in what world i should give Jaime a pass for trying to kill Bran because he was stupid enough to not being able to keep it in his pants.

[zandru]

Before I got to the 4th book, I would have said Tyrion was the best, no question. But his travails after losing the Handship and being kegged off to Essos have revealed some very ugly parts to him.

Now, Jaime seems to be on an arc of dawning self-awareness and improvement. Cersei, always worse than her twin, is clearly on the way downhill, with a little help from the newly-returned Varys. And no, she was never a "good mother."

So, "least bad" is the question. I'm reluctantly going with Tyrion, because even with his new nihilism, self-destructiveness, and scheming against a wide assortment of others, he's taken Penny along with him when he could have left her behind to die, many times. This is even though he has no physical attraction to her, denigrates her as too young and naive, and doesn't have any particular "use" for her. He's been also taking care to bring along Jorah Mormont, who's been treating him terribly (and this has revealed some really ugly things about Mormont's character, btw), when he could have left Mormont behind to die, also, and who hasn't had any obvious usefulness.

Yeah, I know "everybody hates Penny". This is why Tyrion's caring for her is so significant.

[Dreadscythe95]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, what? We must be reading different books. 

 

No we are not. Jaimie gets redeemed for us when we see his POVs. He still does many questionable things, he murders easily. I understand his motives but he is still a very self-centered person. Even the Tysha backstory was a big mistake of his.

Tyrion has blood on his hands as well but it's more well-deserved if you want my opinion.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Jaime, probably. We get in his head and we have a much better understanding of him. 

Tyrion, I find is a balancing act. There are times when I think he deserves all the respect in the world. There are times when he should be throttled. What he did to Shae and Tysha, Illyrio's bedslave, the prostitute at Selhorys was reprehensible. The friendship he struck with Jon at the Wall and his honesty, his worry about Young Griff after he heard Benerro's preaching back in Volantis were sweet. Tyrion turns really really bad and nasty the moment he feels unwanted or slighted. And he doesn't really use the advice he gave Jon about never forgetting what he is and to make it his strength. 

Cersei's chapters are the ones are enjoyed the most out of siblings, though. Mainly because it was like watching a car wreck happening in slow motion. Her chapters are a good cackling opportunity. She is certifiable. 

The three are fucked up to various degrees.

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

No we are not. Jaimie gets redeemed for us when we see his POVs. He still does many questionable things, he murders easily. I understand his motives but he is still a very self-centered person. Even the Tysha backstory was a big mistake of his.

 

So, Tyrion gets a pass on participating in the gang rape b/c he’s young, and poor lad, had Tywin for a father. And Jaime, who was also young and had the same father, doesn’t get a pass on lying? All righty then. 

17 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Tyrion has blood on his hands as well but it's more well-deserved if you want my opinion.

Tyrion has more than blood on his hands. 

[teej6]

For me, it has to be Tyrion. He is the despised and hated child of the three. He had it worst in that terribly dysfunctional family. In spite of the hate directed at him since he was a baby, Tyrion grew up to have compassion and empathy. Perhaps it his outsider status that allowed him to see things differently. All three of Tywin’s kids are proud and entitled, but Tyrion exhibits these traits the least IMO. Tyrion has certainly turned dark and some of his ADWD chapters were difficult and annoying to read. But with the later Tyrion chapters in the same book, I began to see the old Tyrion (the one I enjoyed reading) again. Tyrion can be vindictive and cruel but I feel he shows more compassion and empathy than his siblings, yes even more than Jamie.

Jamie always seemed like, as someone above said, a man child. He whines a bit too much for me. All three of Tywin’s kids seem to want to be recognized, especially by their father but Tyrion at least has a good enough reason... he was the neglected and despised child. Although I do enjoy reading the Jamie POVs, somehow I can’t the get feeling out of my mind that GRRM may have retconned Jamie’s character beginning with ASOS. With his POVs, I feel the man strives to be better than he is but invariably fails. It took the knowledge of Cersei’s infidelity for him to really see how ugly she was and be free of her. She wanted him to kill Arya, and he would have obliged had he found her. He’s a slave to Cersei up until he realizes that she was unfaithful to him. Even the killing of Aerys (this is one of the instances I think GRRM retconned the telling of the event), which defines Jamie in many ways, is stupid when you think of it. All he needed to do was incapacitate the crazy old man, but he stabbed him in the back like a coward and then was too proud to tell Ned what happened because Ned was supposed to somehow magically deduce what happened. Maybe it’s the way it is written, but it somehow seemed to me like the justification of a coward and turncloak. Then after Robert pardons him and keeps him in the KG, he still does not seem to want or is incapable of doing the right and honorable thing. Instead he betrays the King who showed him mercy and continues to fuck his crazy sister for over a decade and has bastard kids with her and passes them of as the King’s children. Jamie’s redemption arc or point of view maybe interesting to read but it’s the least convincing, and inconsistent character development for me from all three of Tywin’s kids. 

Cersei of course is deteriorating to the point of no return. I don’t know if I can find one quality about Cersei I like. I like strong women (coz I see myself as one ), but Cersei’s triumphs to me reads like an insult to strong women. Everything she does is so manipulative and vile that you want to see her fail. Cersei sees herself as a victim for being a woman but is the first to victimize and abuse other women. Catelyn (with all her flaws) is a nice contrast to Cersei. Perhaps one can argue that Cersei is the more realistic portrayal of a strong woman in a medieval setting, where women had to be manipulative, ruthless, and cruel to get ahead. But I prefer Cat’s strength and integrity whether realistic or not.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Cersei of course is deteriorating to the point of no return. I don’t know if I can find one quality about Cersei I like. I like strong women (coz I see myself as one ), but Cersei’s triumphs to me reads like an insult to strong women. Everything she does is so manipulative and vile that you want to see her fail. Cersei sees herself as a victim for being a woman but is the first to victimize and abuse other women. Catelyn (with all her flaws) is a nice contrast to Cersei. Perhaps one can argue that Cersei is the more realistic portrayal of a strong woman in a medieval setting, where women had to be manipulative, ruthless, and cruel to get ahead. But I prefer Cat’s strength and integrity whether realistic or not.

Very interesting post for me to read, because you have quite a different perspective than me  

I just wanted to add to the Cersei part quickly, as someone, who enjoys Cersei's character, but not her as a person, that I don't think Cersei is a "strong woman" or supposed to be "a strong woman". Of course for a short period of time she is a very powerful woman.

I personally never understood the "strong woman" archetype - I feel like it's kinda made up by Hollywood. IMO well-written characters and human beings are more complex than that. And I think that is what GRRM is striving for. There aren't really "strong man" characters either, are there?

But anyway, strong wouldn't be on my list to describe Cersei foe sure  

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Cersei of course is deteriorating to the point of no return. I don’t know if I can find one quality about Cersei I like. I like strong women (coz I see myself as one ), but Cersei’s triumphs to me reads like an insult to strong women. Everything she does is so manipulative and vile that you want to see her fail. Cersei sees herself as a victim for being a woman but is the first to victimize and abuse other women. Catelyn (with all her flaws) is a nice contrast to Cersei. Perhaps one can argue that Cersei is the more realistic portrayal of a strong woman in a medieval setting, where women had to be manipulative, ruthless, and cruel to get ahead. But I prefer Cat’s strength and integrity whether realistic or not.

I would like Cersei far more if she was competent but she is single minded and strong, stronger than her brothers. I respect that.

[teej6]

33 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I personally never understood the "strong woman" archetype - I feel like it's kinda made up by Hollywood. IMO well-written characters and human beings are more complex than that. And I think that is what GRRM is striving for. There aren't really "strong man" characters either, are there?

But anyway, strong wouldn't be on my list to describe Cersei foe sure  

Yes, GRRM writes women just like he writes their male counterparts, which is why I like his portrayal of women. In his books, women are not bucketed into archetypes but there are certainly women who are stronger and less passive than others. Cersei is the former. The good thing about his writing is not that he doesn’t write strong female characters, it’s that he writes them more realistically. The women don’t have to always be good or virtuous. They can be cruel and ruthless too. Cersei’s character is always railing against the inequity of her being born a woman. She sees herself as a man in a woman’s body and is fighting the injustice inflicted on her due to her womanhood. You could argue she is a strong character and as she is a woman in a man’s world, a strong woman. The character is a fighter and tries to determine her own fate. She rises to power in a male dominated and misogynistic world. Despite that, we don’t root for her because she is in it for herself (maybe to some extend for her children) and in many instances inflicts cruelty on other women. This is the character realism that GRRM brings. If Cersei had a redeeming quality, the feminist in me would have rooted for her to succeed. I would have wanted her to rule as regent. But I don’t, because she is portrayed, perhaps realistically, as a woman who will attain power by any means and is also terribly incompetent. That is why I contrasted Cersei to Catelyn. I would have hated it if Cat was a passive observer, but she isn’t. Cat is another character that is portrayed as a strong woman who tries to determine her own fate and that of her family’s and she is written as an inherently good and honest person to boot.

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yes, I agree GRRM writes women just like he writes their male counterparts, which is why I like his portrayal of women. In his books, women are not bucketed into archetypes. But Cersei’s character is always railing against the inequity of her being born a woman. She sees herself as a man in a woman’s body. You could argue she is a strong character and as she is a woman in a man’s world, a strong woman. The character is a fighter and tries to determine her own fate. She rises to power in a male dominated and misogynistic world. Despite that, we don’t root for her because she is in it for herself (maybe to some extend for her children) and in many instances inflicts cruelty on other women. That is why I contrasted Cersei to Catelyn. I would have hated it if Cat was a passive observer, but she isn’t. Cat tries to determine her own fate and that of her family’s by her own actions but she is an inherently good and honest person, which Cersei is not.

Yes for sure. I agree Cersei is definitely not a good person, while Cat is flawed and realistic, but a good person and doesn't stay passive on the side lines, just because she has been given a specific role as the mother of the King of the North.

Quote

You could argue she is a strong character and as she is a woman in a man’s world, a strong woman. The character is a fighter and tries to determine her own fate. She rises to power in a male dominated and misogynistic world

Ah, I get what you mean!

I guess it's just hard for me to see Cersei as a strong person, because all I see is usually everything, that is psychologically wrong with her and I can never really see that as strength even though it makes her "dominant". I think she is very power-hungry, has strong narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies, but she is also very afraid and paranoid. IMO 80% of the stuff she does, she does out of fear and paranoia and fear is never really a good adviser, but she is not reflective enough to understand that. She despises weakness and powerlessness and to her that's inherently female, therefore she looks down on other women, hates them, wants to separate herself from them and that's why she "elevates" herself to the level of masculinity. 

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

stronger than her brothers.

I see her as the weakest of the lot. She likes to think she is strong and determined, tough and smart. But she’s not. And her internal misogyny is just appalling tbh. 

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see her as the weakest of the lot. She likes to think she is strong and determined, tough and smart. But she’s not. And her internal misogyny is just appalling tbh. 

I agree. She is very "weak" and full of fear. I found it at times very sad tbh

[frenin]

48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see her as the weakest of the lot. She likes to think she is strong and determined, tough and smart. But she’s not. And her internal misogyny is just appalling tbh. 

Well, she is cunning but she is certainly strong and determined, she knows how to endure suffering and she knows how to takes what it's not hers. She seems certainly stronger than Jaime, besides clearly more dominant, and that Tyrion. I'll point against her her daddy issues... But well.

[teej6]

36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes for sure. I agree Cersei is definitely not a good person, while Cat is flawed and realistic, but a good person and doesn't stay passive on the side lines, just because she has been given a specific role as the mother of the King of the North.

In Cersei and Cat we see two women who try to shape their own and their families’ destinies by actively engaging in politics and the business of ruling. They both fail but for different reasons. When I say strong female characters, I mean characters who are as dominant as men in the narrative and who shape their stories and those of others through their actions. In their misogynistic world, they are both decision makers, but one we find sympathetic and the other we do not. 

48 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I guess it's just hard for me to see Cersei as a strong person, because all I see is usually everything, that is psychologically wrong with her and I can never really see that as strength even though it makes her "dominant". I think she is very power-hungry, has strong narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies, but she is also very afraid and paranoid. IMO 80% of the stuff she does, she does out of fear and paranoia and fear is never really a good adviser, but she is not reflective enough to understand that. She despises weakness and powerlessness and to her that's inherently female, therefore she looks down on other women, hates them, wants to separate herself from them and that's why she "elevates" herself to the level of masculinity. 

Cersei is morally bankrupt and in this regard is perhaps a weak character. She is cruel, power hungry, a narcissist and probably a sociopath too. She also deludes herself into thinking that she is smarter and more competent than most others, which of course she is not. She is paranoid and is a misogynist herself. Cersei is a fool and will likely implode in the next book.  But this does not take away from or diminish the character’s determination in charting out a course for herself that is different from what society has defined for her, even though she’s an utter failure. 

45 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

[kissdbyfire]

Very well said, @teej6! 

[Dreadscythe95]

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, Tyrion gets a pass on participating in the gang rape b/c he’s young, and poor lad, had Tywin for a father. And Jaime, who was also young and had the same father, doesn’t get a pass on lying? All righty then. 

Tyrion has more than blood on his hands. 

Tyrion was forced by Tywin to participate in the rape. Jaimie doesn't get a pass not only because he lied back then but because he didn't tell him after all these years and because he betrayed him like that. Tywin never said to Jaimie not to tell him.

[Lion of the West]

Jaime, easily. I love redemption arcs and so I love his storyline.