Which one of Tywin´s children you respect the most ?

[the Other Wolf]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:58 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

A lot of people are messed up and still don't have it in them to rape

I took a few months off after trying to explain this to others here. 

Thanks for helping the cause!

[Bernie Mac]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:43 PM, Dreadscythe95 said:

Tyrion was forced by Tywin to participate in the rape.

No, not according to Tyrion. Tyrion raped Tysha because he was arroused and he was told she was a whore.

There is no force, threat or indication that Tyrion was scared of the consequences should he say no. In fact Tyrion thinks he could have stopped it had he known she was not a whore (he may be wrong on that one, but who knows).

 

[Jay21]

I don't think either is ripe for respect. Cersei is a self serving animal and Jamie is... well I guess Jamie is a self serving animal too.  Sometimes he threatens to be more, but it doesn't seem to stick.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 4/27/2020 at 9:33 AM, frenin said:

I know what he has said but we have Jaime's thoughts on his family and he certainly was completely unattached to them, he only starts trying to build some relationship with his kid in AFFC, so no, that was done only to save  his and Cersei's necks which makes it a no no in my book. I don't know in what world i should give Jaime a pass for trying to kill Bran because he was stupid enough to not being able to keep it in his pants.

It's a personal decision, no doubt. But you wouldn't receive judgment from me. I don't even have children and it wouldn't be a question of "if" for me but how soon it could happen.

Kinda like that line from Jorah Mormont to Viserys:

"Does loyalty mean nothing to you?"

"It means everything."

[frenin]

27 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's a personal decision, no doubt. But you wouldn't receive judgment from me. I don't even have children and it wouldn't be a question of "if" for me but how soon it could happen.

Kinda like that line from Jorah Mormont to Viserys:

"Does loyalty mean nothing to you?"

"It means everything."

But this is not a question about children, since Jaime does not give a single fuck about them in AGOT, i don't know when exactly Martin said those words but both him and the fans that use Cersei's kids as an excuse for Jaime's actions are willfully forgetting  how attached and how much Jaime cared about his children then, it's about him and Cersei. I simply don't believe that Jaime can keep fucking his sister with impunity is worth of Bran's life, nor that Bran should pay for their idiocy. If they lose their life because of that, well fuck them, if they kill Bran to protect their secret and lives, well that's a valid  option too, but they shouldn't expect compassion  and sympathy.

This is not a "What are you willing to sacrifice for your children", it's a simply good ol "I'll kill everyone in my way to save my neck".

Ofc it's up to anyone to judge about but yes, for me Jaime is irredeemable from the beginning to the end.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

But this is not a question about children, since Jaime does not give a single fuck about them in AGOT, i don't know when exactly Martin said those words but both him and the fans that use Cersei's kids as an excuse for Jaime's actions are willfully forgetting  how attached and how much Jaime cared about his children then, it's about him and Cersei. I simply don't believe that Jaime can keep fucking his sister with impunity is worth of Bran's life, nor that Bran should pay for their idiocy. If they lose their life because of that, well fuck them, if they kill Bran to protect their secret and lives, well that's a valid  option too, but they shouldn't expect compassion  and sympathy.

This is not a "What are you willing to sacrifice for your children", it's a simply good ol "I'll kill everyone in my way to save my neck".

Ofc it's up to anyone to judge about but yes, for me Jaime is irredeemable from the beginning to the end.

Can't blame you for that. He and Sansa are two of my favorite characters because of the transformation we see. That doesn't make them ideal people. We see Sansa prioritize herself over SR's long term health.

And I'd be lying if I didn't see some of the same internal conflict and self judgment inside Jaime that I've experienced myself -- excluding the child murder and incest obviously.

[frenin]

14 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Can't blame you for that. He and Sansa are two of my favorite characters because of the transformation we see. That doesn't make them ideal people. We see Sansa prioritize herself over SR's long term health.

And I'd be lying if I didn't see some of the same internal conflict and self judgment inside Jaime that I've experienced myself -- excluding the child murder and incest obviously.

I mean Robert is one of my fav so i'm definetely  not one to judge lmao. But i don' like the children excuse, it seems a retcon to me, if you want to make us believe that the children are a factor in Jaime's decision, show it, otherwise you're just giving him a rather important trait he didn't have earlier just to save his face.

[Back door hodor]

Jamie...he's really not that bad to be honest, definitely the least selfish of the Lannisters and has his own odd sense of honor.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I mean Robert is one of my fav so i'm definetely  not one to judge lmao. But i don' like the children excuse, it seems a retcon to me, if you want to make us believe that the children are a factor in Jaime's decision, show it, otherwise you're just giving him a rather important trait he didn't have earlier just to save his face.

Man yeah Robert is low key an awful, yet tragic character. Outwardly loved and undeniably successful but unable or unwilling to fight for himself.

[M.Alhazred]

Tyrion is the one I respect the most.He's the most clever of the 3.

[Your Mummer]

I'm pretty sure Tyrion isn't one of Tywin's children  (yep that debate) but I vote for Jaime either way. He has done two despicable things - throwing Bran and hunting Arya, but Tyrion has thought plenty worse. Jaime deserves credit for being a man of action - killing Aerys, rescuing Brienne, etc. He is not a consistent character, particularly when you consider the first book, but he is honest and takes action, whilst the other two are neurotic and their plot lines gets a bit tiring.  And he is a lot smarter than other characters realise. 

[Ghostlydragon]

Easily Jaime as he is attempting to be better than he was. What he writes in the White Book is one of my favourite bits. Him having the good grace to admit that he was beaten by Robb Stark fair and square and to honour Brienne is the sort of thing he would never have done at the start.

But Cersei just gets worse over time while Tyrion seems determined to hit rock bottom before he gets better, and he may not even want to.

[Stannis Cool-Ranchus]

Hello all. Long-time lurker, first time poster made an account just to address this issue I've seen people discuss a lot.

Tyrion did not rape Tysha. Even if we judge by modern standards, he was a child when that happened. His father basically raped both of them. If anybody did that today that's how he would charged.

That being said, if Tyrion did indeed bed the slave-girl at Illyrio's, then he is a rapist, no two ways about it. Though my reading of that chapter was that he may have just been trying to scare her.

Cheers!

[dbergkvist]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:33 PM, frenin said:

The very messed up lesson Tyrion learnt was about how to treat lowbirth women, and women in general, so i can see where that comes from.

Just because Tyrion was indoctrinated to believe he had the right to rape people, that's not a reason for him to want to do it. Also, the people who gave Tyrion that lesson also mistreated him, so why should he care about their moral code?

[frenin]

5 hours ago, dbergkvist said:

Just because Tyrion was indoctrinated to believe he had the right to rape people, that's not a reason for him to want to do it. Also, the people who gave Tyrion that lesson also mistreated him, so why should he care about their moral code?

It is more than a reason imo, of you're indoctrinated to do something, you fail to see the moral dilemmas of it.

The latter  part i find it absurd, mistreated or not, Tywin was still Tyrion's father, the "lesson" was taught to Tyrion in an age when he was still developing so he could internalize it better and the lesson  he was taught was deviced to precisely avoid Tyrion to question it.

[dbergkvist]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

It is more than a reason imo, of you're indoctrinated to do something, you fail to see the moral dilemmas of it.

But you are missing the point that just because someone believes they have the right to do something, that doesn't automatically mean they'll do it. Tyrion wasn't raised to believe that he must rape people.

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

The latter  part i find it absurd, mistreated or not, Tywin was still Tyrion's father, the "lesson" was taught to Tyrion in an age when he was still developing so he could internalize it better and the lesson  he was taught was deviced to precisely avoid Tyrion to question it.

Tyrion had also been raised to believe that murdering your own father is morally wrong, but he still does it, so clearly he is able to question his moral upbringing.

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

But you are missing the point that just because someone believes they have the right to do something, that doesn't automatically mean they'll do it. Tyrion wasn't raised to believe that he must rape people.

Which clearly helps that prostitutes are not exactly considered people right?? 

 

 

9 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

Tyrion had also been raised to believe that murdering your own father is morally wrong, but he still does it, so clearly he is able to question his moral upbringing.

And Jaime, Robert and Ned were raised to consider their king untouchable, that's again a very absurd logic. In a moment of rage and blinded by his father's betrayal Tyrion stroke down, that's very very diferent that you pretending that he has to forget all his upbringing because we consider it morally wrong.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, dbergkvist said:

Tyrion wasn't raised to believe that he must rape people.

to add to that, that Tyrion very well knew what he did was wrong, while he raped the Sunset girl. His mentality is clearly different in that regard from f.e. the Ironborns

[Elegant Woes]

Cersei. I respect her straightforwardness and snark. Hands down the most entertaining villain in ASOIAF. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And Jaime, Robert and Ned were raised to consider their king untouchable, that's again a very absurd logic.

It's not absurd logic. It just means, that just because you were taught certain things in childhood, that you don't have to go out and do them yourself as an adult. Especially if you have the moral awareness, that Tyrion does about it.  Does Sam Tarly ever degrade and abuse someone?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Which clearly helps that prostitutes are not exactly considered people right?? 

He has that tendency towards women, he wants to sleep with in general. He's also abusive towards Sansa. Even though IMO he had enough information to know she was unable to consent in the scenario they were in.