Incels:

[Varysblackfyre321]

This video kinda reminded me of notable thing I've noticed with anti-feminists(incels, MRAs, PUAs and gross misogynistic assholes in the like), is that they often bemoan misandry in response to talks about systemic misogyny.

Because shaming a man for electing to wear something thought of as feminine is seems to be misandry if we’re looking at through the lense of of an equivalent to misogyny.

They're denigrating men for exercising the same behaviors they would not criticize a woman for.

They do the same thing with political ideology.

Sexism against men is fine so long as the targets aren't fulfilling a suitably masculine standard.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:29 AM, BigFatCoward said:

Well quite. Imagine being happier on 50 grand and your wife is on 40, than 50 grand and your wife is on 100. 60 grand buys a lot of happiness.

Anyone who says different has never drank a cold beer while watching the sunset on koh phangnan while eating lobster. 

But is it better to be able to worry less about poverty and starvation if it comes at the cost of some people who won't be directly affected by you starving and and being impoverished seeing you as less than the epiphany of manly men?

Logically yes.

[broken one]

On 11/26/2020 at 4:34 PM, Relic said:

What stupid creatures we are...

I can understand this "stupidity" as long as one does not come to his wife's boss and ask for her salary to be lowered XD

Meeting the expectation of being provider / hunter - gatherer / whatever (imagined or real, depends on where you live I guess) satisfies mental need and props up self opinion. Some may find it hard to rise above this thing and logic won't help.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

3 hours ago, broken one said:

Meeting the expectation of being provider / hunter - gatherer / whatever (imagined or real, depends on where you live I guess) satisfies mental need and props up self opinion. Some may find it hard to rise above this thing and logic won't help.

Part of what I think of as the patriarchy is the delusion men suffer in a lot of places (US, in my experience) that they are only worthwhile if they are providing.  That switch seems to flip two ways when it comes to this discussion - feeling that you as a man are earning a living and “deserve” a partner, based on a false promise of what success looks like. Or for whatever reason, a man might not be able to provide, personal or environmental - and this leads to resentment and a feeling of worthlessness and then outrage. Because a single, unsuccessful man ain’t shit in the patriarchy, no matter their inherent worth as a person.

Privilege (specifically patriarchy, here) is like running a long distance race...and then you see yourself getting passed by a bunch of people, some carrying weighted backpacks (women doing the same thing you are in society, but with a lot more resistance).  While logical folks might think they need to train harder (improve as a person), or find a different length race to run (find a different measure of success), there’s a lot of vested and historical interests saying “but...but...dad said I would win a medal here” and externalizing blame to protect what you have built your ego around.

[Heartofice]

Where I would agree with the above is that men are really still judged much more heavily on what job they do, and as a consequence, quite often on how much they earn. Much of a mans value, rightly or wrongly, is still measured by what he does, by what job he has or at the very least what job he is aiming to get in the future. 

As women's pay has equalled men's there hasn't been quite the corresponding drop in expectations or value judgements around men's roles. A man is still seen as more attractive if he earns a lot of money, has symbols of wealth, or performs a role that displays high social value, like a doctor .. or even playing in a band. The reverse really doesn't tend to apply, women are really still judged mainly on looks and personality rather than any specific job they do. I know that when I've been out with female friends and one of them is seeing someone new, the first question is 'what does he do' (followed by 'how tall is he'). I've also been at parties with tech millionaires and noticed the speed at which women flock to them when word gets out how much they earnt. 

And tying it back to Incels, and in some part the men's rights movement, the complaint is often this asymmetry, that feminism has lifted up one side but forgotten the other. The unwritten rule that men are still expected to be a success, equal or more so than their women, isn't really going away fast enough. At a time where men have less opportunities, are doing worse in education and are dropping out of society at record numbers we still for some reason aren't doing enough to address the way we value men, and still hold these high expectations.  

So it's all very well to scoff at guys who want to earn more than their wives, but I think it is quite understandable, given that as a society we haven't gotten to a point where men can feel satisfied being house husbands or doing low paid work and still feel respected and desired. The point of feminism is to try and get to that point, but it doesn't appear to be as much of priority as getting middle class women to be CEOs.

Maybe it is possible and maybe it isn't, I don't know what element of attraction is hard wired (many incels would say it all is). I wouldn't look down at my nose at guys for feeling a bit frustrated at being out earned by their wives, all the wrong incentives are still there in society. 




 

[lessthanluke]

I can't wait until my other half earns a load of money so I can work less. The dream. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

A co-worker once told me after a few beers that he hates it when his wife sells a lot in the high end clothing store she works in because sometimes her commission is 2-3x times his monthly salary. I was like WTF... 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

And tying it back to Incels, and in some part the men's rights movement, the complaint is often this asymmetry, that feminism has lifted up one side but forgotten the other. The unwritten rule that men are still expected to be a success, equal or more so than their women, isn't really going away fast enough

Ha good one. Almost any time a plenty a would try and talk about the unreasonable expectations placed on men, and how we should stop having them, anti-feminists(MRAs, incels other misogynistic assholes) cry about them and society emasculating them.

MRAs, incels, PUAs, and other misogynistic assholes don’t talk about double standards concerning men because they want to change anything. It’s just a tool to shut down discussions sexism against women.

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

The point of feminism is to try and get to that point, but it doesn't appear to be as much of priority as getting middle class women to be CEOs.

Yeah ignore all that talk of toxic masculinity. 

Ignore women’s rights organizations who’ve campaigned to have the FBI to change its definition of rape to include men.

Ignore any campaigns by them to try to bring awareness male suicide.

Its all just just well off women wanting to get slightly richer.

Oh, also ignore that talk of making it easy for women to get abortion and access to birth even if they’re poor.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

32 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

A co-worker once told me after a few beers that he hates it when his wife sells a lot in the high end clothing store she works in because sometimes her commission is 2-3x times his monthly salary. I was like WTF... 

“I hate having more money”... WTF?

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ha good one. Almost any time a plenty a would try and talk about the unreasonable expectations placed on men, and how we should stop having them, anti-feminists(MRAs, incels other misogynistic assholes) cry about them and society emasculating them.

MRAs, incels, PUAs, and other misogynistic assholes don’t talk about double standards concerning men because they want to change anything. It’s just a tool to shut down discussions sexism against women.

Yeah ignore all that talk of toxic masculinity. 

Ignore women’s rights organizations who’ve campaigned to have the FBI to change its definition of rape to include men.

Ignore any campaigns by them to try to bring awareness male suicide.

Its all just just well off women wanting to get slightly richer.

Oh, also ignore that talk of making it easy for women to get abortion and access to birth even if they’re poor.

Usual useful attempt to engage I see. 

[Jace, Extat]

Feminists forgot that their mission is to make their men's lives easier. It's all so clear to me now. Stupid bitches, fighting for fair pay and bodily autonomy while men suffer in silence the loss of a fantasied fulfilling.

It really is revealing that these "so-called" feminists forgot about the men in society.

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

So it's all very well to scoff at guys who want to earn more than their wives, but I think it is quite understandable, given that as a society we haven't gotten to a point where men can feel satisfied being house husbands or doing low paid work and still feel respected and desired.

Just as an anecdotal counter example, one of my closest friends has spent the last 20 years being a house husband. His marriage has continued to be a very successful one as far as I can see. When the kids were younger he often said how much fun it was being in situations where he was the only father in a group that otherwise consisted solely of mothers. He tended to get a lot of respect from them apparently (I don't know about any "desire" though).

[Varysblackfyre321]

52 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Feminists forgot that their mission is to make their men's lives easier. It's all so clear to me now. Stupid bitches, fighting for fair pay and bodily autonomy while men suffer in silence the loss of a fantasied fulfilling.

It really is revealing that these "so-called" feminists forgot about the men in society.

I know you're joking but it really needs to be remembered many feminists do talk about the actually legitimate issues facing men and boy due to old gender stereotypes.

They campaign for social and systemic change.

But when they do they're called femanazi bitchs, or soyboy beta-cucks by the same asshole misogynists(mras, incels), who were crying about feminists not doing anything about said issues.

 

[Heartofice]

53 minutes ago, A wilding said:

Just as an anecdotal counter example, one of my closest friends has spent the last 20 years being a house husband. His marriage has continued to be a very successful one as far as I can see. When the kids were younger he often said how much fun it was being in situations where he was the only father in a group that otherwise consisted solely of mothers. He tended to get a lot of respect from them apparently (I don't know about any "desire" though).

I'm sure that is the case, though we never know the inner workings of peoples marriages, or how these people feel about themselves. As an example, my friend is happily married to his wife, and she put on a lot of weight after their wedding. It hasn't caused any problems and he loves her just as much. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't understand if she feels insecure about it because we judge women heavily on their appearance though. Just because not everyone responds to those pressures, it doesn't mean those pressures don't exist.

[Zorral]

Gads, tiresome as a bot -- always the predicted response and demand of denotation, though not always in the same order, but still, always the non-signifying ron de jambe.  So much repetition!  One might think the repeater would get tired of so much repetition! 

[Relic]

 

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

all the wrong incentives are still there in society. 




 

So basically what you are saying is that a large percentage of men are insecure, feel inadequate, feel pressured by society to be XYZ, and need to somehow feel superior to others. Is that right?

[S John]

Any long term relationship is a partnership. I feel like guys who are hung up on being the primary breadwinner no matter what are losing sight of that basic fact.

It’s not about some storybook bullshit or ego-driven self image. It’s about the nitty gritty details of everyday fuckin’ life and conquering the day that is in front of you. Life can be hard, mean and unforgiving. It is a war of attrition that ultimately ends in all of our deaths. 

Why not leverage every possible advantage your partnership has at its disposal? You don’t get a posthumous prize for breadwinningest bro, so why is this a problem?

Since I think the majority of us here are from Western cultures I’ll go further and say who cares about societal norms on this issue? It’s not criminal for your wife to make more. Nobody is going to honor kill you for it. Nobody will even want to. In a culture that highly values individualism, why lack the self confidence to make the decision that best suits whatever partnership you’ve entered into? There’s a lot of flimsy ass excuses on this topic if you ask me. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 hours ago, Relic said:

 

So basically what you are saying is that a large percentage of men are insecure, feel inadequate, feel pressured by society to be XYZ, and need to somehow feel superior to others. Is that right?

Others being especially women in their lives.

Though one can recognize the social pressures facing men and boys without engaging in apologia for the misogyny and misogynistic assholes like Incels, MRAs etc and rightly call the mindset stupid and harmful.

Especially if it leads men to shame the women they’re with for having a career that they like/ love or because they need to maintain a decent standard of living for them and or their family.

4 hours ago, S John said:

Any long term relationship is a partnership. I feel like guys who are hung up on being the primary breadwinner no matter what are losing sight of that basic fact.

It’s not about some storybook bullshit or ego-driven self image. It’s about the nitty gritty details of everyday fuckin’ life and conquering the day that is in front of you. Life can be hard, mean and unforgiving. It is a war of attrition that ultimately ends in all of our deaths. 

Why not leverage every possible advantage your partnership has at its disposal? You don’t get a posthumous prize for breadwinningest bro, so why is this a problem?

Since I think the majority of us here are from Western cultures I’ll go further and say who cares about societal norms on this issue? It’s not criminal for your wife to make more. Nobody is going to honor kill you for it. Nobody will even want to. In a culture that highly values individualism, why lack the self confidence to make the decision that best suits whatever partnership you’ve entered into? There’s a lot of flimsy ass excuses on this topic if you ask me. 

To the bolded eh. Social norms do hold power and could stifle people even if there’s no law against breaking them and even if the risk of getting killed from it is low.

The societal scale of this problem should not be ignored least we commit the error of thinking sexism is the result of a few really bad people.

But we should not sanitize the individual.

 It’s still a dumb and toxic sentiment from men that doesn’t really rest on the affectations of their romantic female partner.

It’s not a fear of their partner not loving them.  It rests on the males’ sense of pride being scathed. It would be better if they were both more at financial risk if they can affirm to others outside their relationship if they’re manly men.

Toxic masculinity is terrible for all people ultimately.

It’s Unfortunate that any talk of the concept will be summarily dismissed by many social conservatives as simply man-hating.

While crying that men who were dresses(while women are allowed to wear suits) are awful isn’t.

 

[BigFatCoward]

One of my close friends is a stay at home dad, his wife makes 150 grand, he was making about 30, so it made absolute sense.

I asked what he always going to do when they both start at school and his response was 'whatever the fuck I like' (meaning job wise, not just wanking on the sofa all day and eating cheesy wotsits). Sounds like a pretty awesome position to me. 

[Relic]

5 hours ago, S John said:

There’s a lot of flimsy ass excuses on this topic if you ask me. 

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. If your excuse for this sort of behavior centers around the need to feel superior, and your wounded ego, we should just call you what you are. An idiot. A sad pathetic idiot.