Where do you think Aegon and Stannis will end up?

[$erPounce]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Robb only named Jon his heir (and we're not even sure of that, when someone asked GRRM about Jon finding out he's Robb's heir, GRRM replied "did he?") because he thought Rickon and Bran where dead. I doubt Jon would try to usurp one brother and work against the wishes of another.

As far as Jon Snow is concerned: he has continuous daydreams that he is lord of Winterfell (or that he is the only descendant of Eddard in Winterfell). He tries to suppress these thoughts at times, but after, for example, Stannis' offer to legitimize Jon Snow and elevate him to Lord of Winterfell:

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Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark,
spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying
when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and
mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout
back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would
reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”
That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times
before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re
bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”
I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.
In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.
The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked
askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you
disarmed him. Enough!”

Let's examine how Jon Snow reacts to this traumatic memory, in the present and now. He hits Iron Emmet very hard, even after he surrenders. Is it because he is distracted? Or is he trying to react off his inner anger? I believe it is the second:

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The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

This is one of Jon Snow's dreams. Don't take it too literally. But here again see how much Jon wants to become Lord of Winterfell.  Nothing will stand in his way to achieve this.

A lot depends on how he will change after his resurrection. He will be much more aggressive and vengeful (I believe), should something similar happen to Catelyn Tully (probably less serious, but still noticeable). If he would have priority in Robbs Will, I think he will stand up for his own interests anyway. Jon will not just accept Rickon as a lord if it is something he has been longing for all his life and has the chance to seize it.

He won't hurt Rickon (although a succession conflict can have nasty consequences). But should Robb's Will Jon Snow appoint him as his successor, he will defend himself and consider him as Rickon's equal. He will no longer accept a subordinate role to the pureblood Starks.

I can't immediately expect a scenario in the books in which Jon thinks: "I don't want it. I never have. He is my overlord".  Especially if he has a different personality and no longer has a Night Watch Oath to abide by.

I still believe that Robb's Will appoints Jon Snow as his successor. Robb Stark married Jeyne Westerling because he was afraid to produce a bastard who would have to go through the same prejudices as his beloved half-brother. Robb Stark fiercely defends his decision to legitimize Jon Snow against Catelyn and shouts that she doesn't have to obey her because he is king. He was determined at the time - I would be surprised if he changed his mind.

In any case, the question of succession in the North is very open to discussion. There are many factors that make this difficult. But knowing George R. R. Martin, this issue will not be without problems. 

The question now, however, is to what extent it will affect Stannis, who is the ruler of Winterfell

[CamiloRP]

9 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

As far as Jon Snow is concerned: he has continuous daydreams that he is lord of Winterfell (or that he is the only descendant of Eddard in Winterfell). He tries to suppress these thoughts at times, but after, for example, Stannis' offer to legitimize Jon Snow and elevate him to Lord of Winterfell:

Let's examine how Jon Snow reacts to this traumatic memory, in the present and now. He hits Iron Emmet very hard, even after he surrenders. Is it because he is distracted? Or is he trying to react off his inner anger? I believe it is the second:

This is one of Jon Snow's dreams. Don't take it too literally. But here again see how much Jon wants to become Lord of Winterfell.  Nothing will stand in his way to achieve this.

A lot depends on how he will change after his resurrection. He will be much more aggressive and vengeful (I believe), should something similar happen to Catelyn Tully (probably less serious, but still noticeable). If he would have priority in Robbs Will, I think he will stand up for his own interests anyway. Jon will not just accept Rickon as a lord if it is something he has been longing for all his life and has the chance to seize it.

He won't hurt Rickon (although a succession conflict can have nasty consequences). But should Robb's Will Jon Snow appoint him as his successor, he will defend himself and consider him as Rickon's equal. He will no longer accept a subordinate role to the pureblood Starks.

I can't immediately expect a scenario in the books in which Jon thinks: "I don't want it. I never have. He is my overlord".  Especially if he has a different personality and no longer has a Night Watch Oath to abide by.

But Jon rejected Stannis's offer to become lord of Winterfell when it meant just breaking his vows, now it means breaking his vows, usurping his brother and working against the wishes of his dead brother. Not to mention that most northerners know the context of the will and would likely prefer a trueborn son of Ned rather than a bastard.

 

Quote

I still believe that Robb's Will appoints Jon Snow as his successor. Robb Stark married Jeyne Westerling because he was afraid to produce a bastard who would have to go through the same prejudices as his beloved half-brother. Robb Stark fiercely defends his decision to legitimize Jon Snow against Catelyn and shouts that she doesn't have to obey her because he is king. He was determined at the time - I would be surprised if he changed his mind.

In any case, the question of succession in the North is very open to discussion. There are many factors that make this difficult. But knowing George R. R. Martin, this issue will not be without problems. 

The question now, however, is to what extent it will affect Stannis, who is the ruler of Winterfell

Oh, I agree, 99% chance that Jon was named on the will, yet the argument made for him not being in the will is a fun one.

Robb has two requisites for an heir, that we know off, must be a Stark and must know Winterfell. Despite him being the king, he tries as hard as possible to convince Cat to do it. The idea is that he was naming Cat his heir, she knows WF and is a Stark, but also she's a Tully and grants support from the Riverlands, a thing which Jon does not. She also thinks of the scene when they sign the will as a trap, and has a conversation about women in power with Lady Mormont in that same chapter. The idea is that Robb threaten Cat with Jon being king to convince her that she should be queen.

I don't believe in this theory because after Cat dies there's no heir, and she's old enough that her not having any more children is a possibility. Jon can be married to a riverlander. The North has never been ruled by a woman, or by someone who's not of First Men descent, or by someone who doesn't practice the faith of the Old Gods, or by a southerner. Cat would never be accepted as ruler, and Robb knows this.

Then again, GRRM's question does puzzle the fuck out of me, everything points to Robb being the heir, it's not like R+L=J, which a lot of readers might miss, most readers will assume Robb named Jon his heir and that it was explicitly said in the text. Why go out of your way to make something ambiguous and then present an absolutely fucking obvious answer, if that obvious answer is the answer? Why ask whether or not it is, if no one assumes it might not be and it is? He might be fucking with us, that's the only choice I have, either that or he intends to name Benjen heir, which still makes less sense than Jon, tho more than Cat. (Tho he can marry Cat to Benjen, which would be the perfect heir while also helping Cat complete her Stark lover album) 

[Quoth the raven,]

Stannis is a fraud, a false Azor Ahai.  Aegon, is false in two ways:  he is not the real Aegon and may not even be a Targaryen.  Second, he is not Azor Ahai.  I think they have a chance of being forgiven but if they persists in those lies, yes things will not go well for them.  We know those lies will be exposed and they will be revealed as frauds.  Stannis has already gotten his ass kicked on the Blackwater and he is not liked by many.  His ally in the north, Jon Snow, has been exposed as a liar with the arrival of the Pink Letter.  I do not see a good future for Stannis.  He will do some harm, like maybe burning his own daughter, before he goes down.  Too bad.  Aegon is building his road to power on a false foundation.  Varys assassinated a good man, a man who could have helped Westeros, for his own ideology.  Connington selfishly hides his infectious disease for a single-minded pursuit of putting his boy on the throne.  All those lies and falsehoods will turn the people against them. 

I don't think Bran will be the king of westeros.  Sure, he might become king in the north.  Which is fine.  He can have that and winterfell.  Darkness and ice will make sure civilization falls.  He will rule from a weirwood throne.  Like rooted to one.  And his reign will only last while the snow blankets the land.  His time will end when the big thaw comes.  Westeros is not going to be united into one kingdom in the remainder of the story.  The last book will see the start of the big thaw and there will be sparks of a new civilization starting to build again.  Fire will be needed to mop up the remaining wights.  The people will be crying out for the return of Fire, the true Targaryen.  And she is across the Narrow Sea. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Both characters are there to invert fantasy tropes:

• Trope: make a huge self-sacrifice to save the kingdom
• Inversion: nothing happens. GRRM laughs in troll.

 

• Trope: But It Is My Destiny As The Hidden Heir To Regain My Birthright Which Is Mine By Rights And I Will Restore Peace Forevermore
• Inversion: actually their downfall*

*Applies to both Aegon and Dany 

[HoodedCrow]

Roses,

Trope: son takes vengeance for his fathers execution

Inversion: Robb leads his supporters to their deaths. 

Trope: Young hero/prince is a budding general, beats and captures his arch enemy, marries a girl,wins a kingdom.

Inversion: Mom releases the captive, girl is given abortion potions, Robb has gruesome death, Mom and most comrades are murdered, Bad Guys triumph

 

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Both characters are there to invert fantasy tropes:

• Trope: make a huge self-sacrifice to save the kingdom
• Inversion: nothing happens. GRRM laughs in troll.

 

• Trope: But It Is My Destiny As The Hidden Heir To Regain My Birthright Which Is Mine By Rights And I Will Restore Peace Forevermore
• Inversion: actually their downfall*

*Applies to both Aegon and Dany 

1. Sacrificing others to your cause is never a self sacrifice, it would be as weird as calling Renly's murder Stannis self sacrifice.  The moment he takes his life to save others, then we'll talk.
2. There are so many hidden heirs in this story, Aegon is clearly the most prominent so far, but Jon (maybe), Dany, Viserys, Rickon and Bran are all Princes in paupers

[TheLastWolf]

6 ft below. Valar.... 

[The Commentator]

Poor Aegon will get pulled along into Arrianne's schemes.  I think he will have a chance to become king after beating the Lannisters but Arrianne is liable to overlook some important detail that could get them both killed.  I don't think Aegon set out with revenge as his primary goal but Arrianne may pull him into that kind of thinking.  

Stannis may be dead already.  The pink letter has an even chance of being true.  What gives me pause is the first lie in the prophecy.  Dany will have to expose him as a false AA.  She would not bother to do that if he is already dead when she arrives.

[Rose of Red Lake]

13 hours ago, frenin said:

1. Sacrificing others to your cause is never a self sacrifice, it would be as weird as calling Renly's murder Stannis self sacrifice.  The moment he takes his life to save others, then we'll talk.
2. There are so many hidden heirs in this story, Aegon is clearly the most prominent so far, but Jon (maybe), Dany, Viserys, Rickon and Bran are all Princes in paupers

Stannis could go either way. Self sacrifice or sacrificing others - I think both will be inverted regardless.

I included Aegon and Dany as the hidden heirs who they think in terms of what is owed to them or what their destiny is - of course that will be inverted.

[Destiny Arrives]

we shall never know because we can only dream of spring

[Damsel in Distress]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:15 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So Aegon and Stannis are very similar in a number of crucial ways. They're both rulers with a lot of legitimacy, probably the most legitimate pretenders out there. They also both have the potential to be very good rulers, and probably will be in the case of Aegon. However, both have the same problem of not being a main character and clearly having no chance of sitting on the Throne by the end. So given that the Throne is probably not an option (Jon, Dany or Bran are the only true candidates) what do you think will happen to these 2. My gut instinct is they'll both be dead, thought I can see both living as vassals of Jon or Dany.

As you say, Aegon Blackfyre and Stannis Baratheon are pretenders.  Fakes.  While these men may have the potential to be competent rulers, Daenerys is better.  I would pick Daenerys over Aegon and Stannis.  She has proven herself a great leader and leads her own khalasar.  She bested the warlocks in Qarth and defeated the slave masters of Astapor and Yunkai.  I loved the way she played Mero.  Stannis is good too but he is no Daenerys Targaryen in brilliance.  An inexperienced Tyrion Lannister humiliated Stannis on the Blackwater.  Aegon's temper will make it difficult for him if he should ever be in a situation where he rules.  Robb and Jon lacked personal discipline.  Cersei is clueless when it comes to actually ruling.  

[Aldarion]

6 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

As you say, Aegon Blackfyre and Stannis Baratheon are pretenders.  Fakes.  While these men may have the potential to be competent rulers, Daenerys is better.  I would pick Daenerys over Aegon and Stannis.  She has proven herself a great leader and leads her own khalasar.  She bested the warlocks in Qarth and defeated the slave masters of Astapor and Yunkai.  I loved the way she played Mero.  Stannis is good too but he is no Daenerys Targaryen in brilliance.  An inexperienced Tyrion Lannister humiliated Stannis on the Blackwater.  Aegon's temper will make it difficult for him if he should ever be in a situation where he rules.  Robb and Jon lacked personal discipline.  Cersei is clueless when it comes to actually ruling.  

Daenerys also has temper, and while she has the best of intentions, she also has highly unstable way of ruling which leaves people below her uncertain of what to expect. No standards, no consistency, so why would they obey her? Anyway, Alyn wrote it better than I could.

As for the first point, I would actually like it if one of those fakes won, precisely because they are fakes.

[chrisdaw]

Dany kills Aegon in dragon combat.

Stannis second lifes as either the Ice Dragon or Other who flies the ice dragon. Stannis is killed in his second life by Jon who will ride the dragon that is Dany's second life into combat against the ice dragon and thrust his flaming sword into the ice dragon's crystal blue eye.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

As for the first point, I would actually like it if one of those fakes won, precisely because they are fakes.

Just so. But I don´t see Stannis ever coming south again, he´s going to die up north. And I´m not really convinced that Aegon is a fake, I´d put it at a 40/40 chance with 20% we´ll never know for sure (even if the series gets finished).

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Daenerys also has temper, and while she has the best of intentions, she also has highly unstable way of ruling which leaves people below her uncertain of what to expect. No standards, no consistency, so why would they obey her? Anyway, Alyn wrote it better than I could.

Thanks man, coming from you, that means a lot!

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

As for the first point, I would actually like it if one of those fakes won, precisely because they are fakes.

Yeah, and to support it, there's the idea at the end of the abomination about how powerful stories are. Naturally it's completely botched and then raped to boot, because you know, it's TweedleDan and TweedleDave, but the idea is pretty sound and very GRRM-y. So it would be a very interesting idea if the ruler at the end is Aegon based on a fake story for the good of the realm. I could see shades of the Dark Knight in there too.

Alas that only works for Aegon. Stannis's story is clearly going to happen all in the North. He ain't ever crossing the Neck again.

19 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Just so. But I don´t see Stannis ever coming south again, he´s going to die up north. And I´m not really convinced that Aegon is a fake, I´d put it at a 40/40 chance with 20% we´ll never know for sure (even if the series gets finished).

I agree on the first bit, but I think the chances of not knowing for sure are much higher. The only way we'd ever truly know is from Varys and I can't for the life of me see him confessing. Maybe there could be some magical mombo jumbo to clear it, but I hope not. Though the idea of us and the people in power knowing he's a fake put making him King regardless for the good of the realm is a very interesting one.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I agree on the first bit, but I think the chances of not knowing for sure are much higher. The only way we'd ever truly know is from Varys and I can't for the life of me see him confessing. Maybe there could be some magical mombo jumbo to clear it, but I hope not. Though the idea of us and the people in power knowing he's a fake put making him King regardless for the good of the realm is a very interesting one.

Yeah, but we might get a Varys POV in the end in where he thinks about what happened all those years ago. That way the reader would know,but the people of Westeros wouldn´t. Of course that probably won´t happen anytime soon, GRRM will keep us in the dark a good while longer.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Yeah, but we might get a Varys POV in the end in where he thinks about what happened all those years ago. That way the reader would know,but the people of Westeros wouldn´t. Of course that probably won´t happen anytime soon, GRRM will keep us in the dark a good while longer.

Yeah I think he'll never give a definitive answer but it will probably lean on him being a Blackfyre/Brightflame/Sarra Targaryen's spawn.