Angel Eyes Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 So in the first book, Lady Lysa Arryn insists that Ser Vardis Egen use her husband’s ceremonial sword in the trial to decide Tyrion’s fate. Because of Lysa’s insistence on this sword, the sword is ill-matched for Ser Vardis, and during the duel, which he loses, the sword is broken. It’s later revealed that Lysa was the person responsible for poisoning Jon Arryn. Jon’s accomplishments go to waste around the same time as the sword is broken. So because of Lysa, Vardis loses the duel, the sword is broken, and so is the realm that Jon Arryn appeared to hold together. Coincidence much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 49 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: So in the first book, Lady Lysa Arryn insists that Ser Vardis Egen use her husband’s ceremonial sword in the trial to decide Tyrion’s fate. Because of Lysa’s insistence on this sword, the sword is ill-matched for Ser Vardis, and during the duel, which he loses, the sword is broken. It’s later revealed that Lysa was the person responsible for poisoning Jon Arryn. Jon’s accomplishments go to waste around the same time as the sword is broken. So because of Lysa, Vardis loses the duel, the sword is broken, and so is the realm that Jon Arryn appeared to hold together. Coincidence much? It’s a good observation. Plus the fact that an honourable man is killed by treacherous and dishonourable methods in the duel. Much like how Jon was killed by a conspiracy which poisoned him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, Canon Claude said: It’s a good observation. Plus the fact that an honourable man is killed by treacherous and dishonourable methods in the duel. Much like how Jon was killed by a conspiracy which poisoned him. You know, I’ve never really understood how an honorable man like Jon Arryn managed to keep the realm together for 15 years, considering how everything went to Hell once the next honorable man came to King’s Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: You know, I’ve never really understood how an honorable man like Jon Arryn managed to keep the realm together for 15 years, considering how everything went to Hell once the next honorable man came to King’s Landing. He barely did tho. The crown's debt became massive during his tenure as hand. The thing to consider also is that there are three kingdom breaking scenarios (this is ignoring Dany, Dorne, Euron and such, because they start causing trouble way after Arryn dies). This scenarios are: Cersei kills Robert to rule via Joff, Varys's meddling, LF's meddling. For starters, Varys was trying to keep to kingdom off war for the duration of AGOT, so he did nothing to cause war during Arryn's time as hand. Cersei woudln't have killed Robert either, but Ned got too close in the investigation of Joff's parentage, which would've happened during Arryn's tenure, but he got killed. And in fact, both Jon and Ned found out because of LF, probably, I mean everyone in the small council knew about the incest, but Varys wouldn't have told anyone, neither would've Pycelle, Stannis told only Jon Arryn, and Renly acts towards him like they never talked about it. The only one who could've told is LF, and he's also the one who guides Ned into that realization. So LF waited to cause trouble till he had all the money he embezzled from the crown, then he needed to get rid of Jon Arryn and make Lysa the ruler of the Vale, a person who would do whatever he asks of her, so he can have a reserve army in the Vale. Then he needs to push war between Starks and Lannisters to bring the realm into chaos. None of that could've happened while Jon lived, so he managed to keep it all together because LF wasn't trying to destroy everything yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Jon's Arryn broken sword could be a reference to something else too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reekazoid Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 56 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Jon's Arryn broken sword could be a reference to something else too... This was my thought too when I read the thread title, lol. If sweetrobin is indeed not his own son as has been theorized, then the metaphor gains fits even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay21 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Reekazoid said: This was my thought too when I read the thread title, lol. If sweetrobin is indeed not his own son as has been theorized, then the metaphor gains fits even more. Just in case Littlefinger wasn't evil enough, that's his own kid he's casually talking about the eventual demise of. Seems to fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Jay21 said: Just in case Littlefinger wasn't evil enough, that's his own kid he's casually talking about the eventual demise of. Seems to fit. More like he's own kid he's slowly poisoning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: More like he's own kid he's slowly poisoning Littlefinger doesn’t care about any kid he has with a woman who isn’t Catelyn. My gods, what a psychopath he really is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 On 12/18/2020 at 2:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said: Jon's Arryn broken sword could be a reference to something else too... Erectile dysfunction?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 On 12/18/2020 at 3:22 PM, Canon Claude said: Littlefinger doesn’t care about any kid he has with a woman who isn’t Catelyn. My gods, what a psychopath he really is... At least Littlefinger is consistent. He doesn't care much for Catelyn's kids either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 On 12/18/2020 at 1:04 PM, Angel Eyes said: You know, I’ve never really understood how an honorable man like Jon Arryn managed to keep the realm together for 15 years, considering how everything went to Hell once the next honorable man came to King’s Landing. The point that a lot of readers seem to take away from these books is that Ned was honorable, and Ned died, so honor is meaningless and dumb. I think that's the wrong takeaway here. It's more that Ned came into the scene late, after many of these other conspiracies in Kings Landing were already well underway. And he was manipulated into being there by Littlefinger. Ned never understood what was really going on, so was acting with one hand tied the whole time. He did not fail because he was an honorable fool. He was out of his depth in Kings Landing, but it had nothing to do with being honorable. Jon Arryn lasted because he understood better what was happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: At least Littlefinger is consistent. He doesn't care much for Catelyn's kids either. He cares a lot about Sansa. A second chance to have Catelyn in his mind and screw over the Starks rather literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: He cares a lot about Sansa. A second chance to have Catelyn in his mind and screw over the Starks rather literally. Yah, I wouldn't want to misinterpret those sweet fatherly give daddy a kiss moments. I need a bath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Yah, I wouldn't want to misinterpret those sweet fatherly give daddy a kiss moments. I need a bath. Didn't say it was a healthy or positive form of caring. Just he has a vested interest in Sansa Stark's fate and assuring it aligns with his interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Quote It’s a good observation. Plus the fact that an honourable man is killed by treacherous and dishonourable methods in the duel. Much like how Jon was killed by a conspiracy which poisoned him. Hmmm, I don't think I agree with this. What part of the fight do you think was dishonourable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 On 1/27/2021 at 4:08 PM, Nathan Stark said: The point that a lot of readers seem to take away from these books is that Ned was honorable, and Ned died, so honor is meaningless and dumb. I think that's the wrong takeaway here. It's more that Ned came into the scene late, after many of these other conspiracies in Kings Landing were already well underway. And he was manipulated into being there by Littlefinger. Ned never understood what was really going on, so was acting with one hand tied the whole time. He did not fail because he was an honorable fool. He was out of his depth in Kings Landing, but it had nothing to do with being honorable. Jon Arryn lasted because he understood better what was happening. Didn't he refuse to play along because he couldn't stomach the idea of kneeling to his son's attempted murderers? I think there was some honor in there that held him back from doing what, say, Sansa had to do which was pretend to like the family who killed her father, to save her neck. But I agree Ned isn't all honorable, otherwise he wouldn't plan a coup or lie to his wife for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 On 12/18/2020 at 11:58 AM, Angel Eyes said: So in the first book, Lady Lysa Arryn insists that Ser Vardis Egen use her husband’s ceremonial sword in the trial to decide Tyrion’s fate. Because of Lysa’s insistence on this sword, the sword is ill-matched for Ser Vardis, and during the duel, which he loses, the sword is broken. It’s later revealed that Lysa was the person responsible for poisoning Jon Arryn. This is interesting. Lysa also gifted the sword to Jon Arryn who used it when he sat the Iron Throne. And honestly, every time I remember this little tidbit, all I can think of is the movie Elf when Buddy tells the fake Santa that he is sitting on a throne of lies. I think an interesting thing is that the sword was broken against the statue of Alyssa Arryn. Close enough to Lysa Arryn. And Vardis Een was crushed by part of it which allowed Bronn to end him. The Vale may not have gone to war, but it is as broken as the other kingdoms. The lords are pitted against each other and we see firsthand the rot of corruption with some of them. Quote Jon’s accomplishments go to waste around the same time as the sword is broken. Whatever Jon's accomplishments were and I'm not sure there are that many, everything goes to rot before he dies. He is the one who seems to have come up with the idea of Robert marrying Cersei and none of her children are his. And the kingdom went bankrupt under his watch and it turns out that the Martells are still plotting their vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Didn't he refuse to play along because he couldn't stomach the idea of kneeling to his son's attempted murderers? I think there was some honor in there that held him back from doing what, say, Sansa had to do which was pretend to like the family who killed her father, to save her neck. But I agree Ned isn't all honorable, otherwise he wouldn't plan a coup or lie to his wife for years. Ned wasn't planning a coup. He was planning to put the legal male heir on the throne, which was Stannis. It was Cersei who was planning a coup by ensuring that her illegitimate son became king instead of the throne passing to the legal heir. And Ned was protecting Jon by keeping his parentage secret. There were ways he could have handled that situation better, but protecting the life of an innocent child is never dishonorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said: Ned wasn't planning a coup. He was planning to put the legal male heir on the throne, which was Stannis. It was Cersei who was planning a coup by ensuring that her illegitimate son became king instead of the throne passing to the legal heir. And Ned was protecting Jon by keeping his parentage secret. There were ways he could have handled that situation better, but protecting the life of an innocent child is never dishonorable. I was trying to give him some nuance here. He lied to everyone which shows he can deceive with the best of them. Even if he did it for a good cause, that had ripple effects on Jon and on Cat. Cat's coldness toward Jon is Ned's fault, not hers. And Ned plotted to put "his" choice on the throne which is just a rhetorical argument. Cersei has hers. If hidden bastards are adopted members of the family, Joffrey is just as much Roberts as Jon is Ned's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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