WandaVision 3: Here Be Magic (Spoilers)

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

One thing I expected in the finale while watching it was the two Visions to merge.  They talk about one has the original Vision's mind, and the other had his body and memories.  Since they can phase through each other, seemed a simple leap to think they'd just resolve the difference by phasing and fusing with each other.

 

I wasn't sure what to expect while watching it, but if that had happened, we wouldn't have gotten the heartbreaking goodbye. I liked what Vision said about himself: a voice without a body, a body but not human, a memory made real. What will he be next?

A couple of things that did occur to me while watching. If both could phase, and their phasing is done so their atoms pass through the atoms of solid structures, shouldn't they cancel each other out, if they phased at the same frequency, and thus would technically be solid to each other? But they probably phase at multiple frequencies. And it was a nice nod to Infinity War when WhiteVision tried ripping the mind stone out, but Vision just phased. He couldn't do that with Thanos because his phasing ability had been damaged by the glaive.

[Argonath Diver]

10 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I wasn't sure what to expect while watching it, but if that had happened, we wouldn't have gotten the heartbreaking goodbye. I liked what Vision said about himself: a voice without a body, a body but not human, a memory made real. What will he be next?

A couple of things that did occur to me while watching. If both could phase, and their phasing is done so their atoms pass through the atoms of solid structures, shouldn't they cancel each other out, if they phased at the same frequency, and thus would technically be solid to each other? But they probably phase at multiple frequencies. And it was a nice nod to Infinity War when WhiteVision tried ripping the mind stone out, but Vision just phased. He couldn't do that with Thanos because his phasing ability had been damaged by the glaive.

According to Ghostbusters rules, phasing into eachother would be bad. Total protonic reversal.

[RumHam]

That's Matt Shakman describing a scene where Monica, Darcy, Ralph and the Twins try to steal the darkhold from the basement and the bunny reveals itself to be a demon of some sort. They filmed it but didn't finish the CGI. 

[Frey family reunion]

33 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

I think you are reading way too much into what is basically different colored magic beams. 

And why the colors in the commercial are interesting the first one is clearly supposed to be the unexploded bomb not going off.

I agree that there is a more obvious meaning to the commercials in that they (at least the first four) go through the stages of Wanda's life.  The first one the unexploded bomb.  The second and third her time with Hydra.  And the fourth goes to the events of Civil War.  The fifth seems seems to point to what Agatha and Fakesilver are up to.  And the 6th seems to describe what she's done with Westview.

I'm just bringing up the possibilities that there may be a secondary more hidden subtexts to the commercials.  Once again, it didn't occur to me when I watched it but I thought some of the possible connections to the soul gems that some other people brought up were interesting.

As for the different colored magic beams, yea I probably am.  But that doesn't change my thought that Wanda's sudden increase of power (without any magical, arcane studying mind you) do seem to correspond until after she came in contact with all of the infinity gems.  And her use of the powers also corresponds with different powers of the infinity gems.  Especially the reality stone.  That one's probably the kicker for me.

We also know for a fact that some of her power, the telepathy/telekenisis didn't come about until after her contact with the mind stone (something that she acknowledge she possesses a part of).  Yet before that contact she had another power, the probability hex she cast.

And the infinity stones do seem to walk a fine line between the cosmic and the arcane.  After all, one was found/created in Asgard while another was kept in a magical amulet aquired by Dr. Strange.  So Wanda drawing her power from these stones doesn't necessarily negate any "magical" component to Wanda's powers.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

if she becomes more of a cosmic being, she has the power of all the stones; if she is all magic, then just like they introduced that she had magic from childhood, they can say that the Mind Stone didn't play that much of a role other than unlocking what was already there, and she didn't absorb anything from the other stones.

I'd like to adress this point seperately.  Here is what I think may be happening behind the scenes.  When they first introduced Wanda and Quicksilver they couldn't be mutants because of the Fox deal.  So they had to create a new origin story.  Since they already were planning on the Thanos/Infinity Guantlet storyline it probably seemed convenient to have the mind stone give both of them their powers.  

Now they probably departed from the powers Wanda had in the comics, because it's a bit too subtle a power to show off in a movie.  And telepathy and telekenesis is more easily associated with what we already saw the mind stone do.  Plus, since the MCUverse couldn't have the X-Men, then they couldn't have Jean Grey, probably the most significant female character in the history of Marvel.  So it appears that they made the decision to make the Scarlet Wtich their Jean Grey.  And thus they just gave her Jean's powers.  Telepathy and Telekenisis.  Just adding the origin story of Hydra and the mind stone.  

But then they go and aquire the Fox properties.  Which means they can bring Jean Grey into the fold.  It also means that they can make Wanda a mutant if they choose to go in that direction.  But it also means that Wanda and Jean are going to be a bit too alike in the power department.  So what I think they decided to do, is to retroactively give Wanda back her origninal comic powers which is the probability hex.  And what I think they are doing is now suggesting that Wanda wasn't "given" her power from the mind stone by Hydra, but instead she took new powers from the mind stone using the powers she was born with  (whether those powers are mutant or magical in nature). 

So if they are in fact going along those lines then it would correspond that she should be able to "take" new powers from all of the infinity stones.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

That's Matt Shakman describing a scene where Monica, Darcy, Ralph and the Twins try to steal the darkhold from the basement and the bunny reveals itself to be a demon of some sort. They filmed it but didn't finish the CGI. 

I was just thinking that the bunny could still come into play.

I noticed Agatha has the tendency to fake plead with her enemy when she appears to be in a dire situation. Her trial in 1693, Wanda's mental illusion taking her back then. She either pleads for mercy to goad her enemies into overconfidence, or simply to buy time for something she is mentally preparing. She plead with Wanda again before she was turned into Agnes, so I'm thinking she won't stay as Agnes for long, and she knew it, but wasn't going to do anything right away because Wanda is too powerful now. So if the bunny is a demonic familiar, or something along those lines, she might retain possession of it (because Agnes had it, too) and the bunny will snap her out of her mind prison. 

[briantw]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

That's Matt Shakman describing a scene where Monica, Darcy, Ralph and the Twins try to steal the darkhold from the basement and the bunny reveals itself to be a demon of some sort. They filmed it but didn't finish the CGI. 

Man, how does that end up getting cut?  That scene gives several side characters something meaningful to do in the (presumably) finale while Wanda/Agatha and Vision/Vision are having their respective showdowns and also actually pays off the fact that the bunny is effectively called Old Scratch and constantly brought up throughout the course of the series despite ultimately serving no purpose.  

The fuck, Disney?

[RumHam]

17 minutes ago, briantw said:

Man, how does that end up getting cut?  That scene gives several side characters something meaningful to do in the (presumably) finale while Wanda/Agatha and Vision/Vision are having their respective showdowns and also actually pays off the fact that the bunny is effectively called Old Scratch and constantly brought up throughout the course of the series despite ultimately serving no purpose.  

The fuck, Disney?

He seems to frame it as "there was too much going on in the finale so something had to go." But I don't see why they couldn't have just added another ten minutes to the finale.

 

[briantw]

17 minutes ago, RumHam said:

He seems to frame it as "there was too much going on in the finale so something had to go." But I don't see why they couldn't have just added another ten minutes to the finale.

Probably could have cut a minute or two of the giant CGI orgasm the show takes in the last episode.

[DMC]

35 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

From what I've been reading they only finished work on the finale 2 weeks ago, so I imagine it was just because they didn't have time to finish the CGI work on the rabbit.

This makes much more sense than chalking it up to time constraints of the episode.  The beauty of streaming is there are no episode time constraints.

[Kalbear]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:45 PM, DMC said:

Um..looked like Wanda went pretty far "away" in the post-credits scene.  Hell, at the beginning of Incredible Hulk and Avengers, Banner is in really highly populated cities instead of actually in isolation.

Banner went away to chillax and not use his powers. 

Wanda went away to apparently read the latin from the book a whole lot while attempting to find out how to rescue her imaginary children. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

Wanda went away to apparently read the latin from the book a whole lot while attempting to find out how to rescue her imaginary children. 

The latter is entirely your interpretation.  I didn't get from that scene that she was trying to find her children at all, she clearly seemed surprised hear them to me.  And Banner went away, in part, to figure out how to control his powers - i.e. his "secret" in Avengers.  Seems to me that's exactly what Wanda is trying to do by learning more about her powers in the book.  I don't know about you, but if there was a book that could help me harness powers that led to me subconsciously enslaving a town, I'd try to read it even if it was in latin or had a spooky name like the Darkhold.  Then, I guess I'm not too superstitious.

[DMC]

In Ragnarok Banner admits he's never had full control over Hulk - and obviously lost it at the end of Ultron:  "In the past, I always felt like Hulk and I each had a hand on the wheel, but this time it's like he had the keys and I was locked in the trunk."  Obviously, he also lost control in Ultron due to Wanda's meddling, and in Avengers due to Loki/the mind stone.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

The latter is entirely your interpretation.  I didn't get from that scene that she was trying to find her children at all, she clearly seemed surprised hear them to me. 

k. I'd recommend watching it again. 

1 hour ago, DMC said:

And Banner went away, in part, to figure out how to control his powers - i.e. his "secret" in Avengers.  Seems to me that's exactly what Wanda is trying to do by learning more about her powers in the book.  I don't know about you, but if there was a book that could help me harness powers that led to me subconsciously enslaving a town, I'd try to read it even if it was in latin or had a spooky name like the Darkhold.  Then, I guess I'm not too superstitious.

Banner went away not to learn how to control his powers, but to instead learn how to suppress them entirely, remove them. Wanda is definitely not doing that. 

I don't know about you, but if I have connections to the world's most powerful organizations and minds including a literal master of magic, my first choice would not be to read a book of the damned that was possessed by an evil power hungry 400 year old witch. To me, that implies a pretty strong view that what she's doing is probably not a super great idea. I'm not even sure what the analogy would be for the Hulk; it'd be like going off to deadlift the rack of the damned or something. 

1 hour ago, Mr Gordo said:

Banner also killed a lot of people. Hell in the comics at one point he used to EAT PEOPLE.

I'm not sure Banner killed anyone other than villains in the MCU. If you want to bring in the sins of what they did in the comics I can guarantee you Wanda doesn't do well there either, but let's not. 

Moreover, the Hulk to my knowledge has been at best bad when he was under mind control. And he was so pissed off as a result that he chose to try and never use his power again. Meanwhile, Wanda was the reason he went bad. And then...she did it again! To a whole town! And not because she was trying to strike a blow for Sokovia, but because she wanted to feel better!

1 hour ago, Mr Gordo said:

Your weird hate for Wanda is...well, weird.

I don't hate her, but I'm not going to apologize for calling her a villain. I think that it should be clear that she's being set up as a villain for the next parts. If she isn't, they're really screwing it up. They're giving her the Dark Willow storyline, and that ends one of two ways. 

1 hour ago, Mr Gordo said:

Also I would argue her children aren't imaginary. I thought that was pretty obvious.

I thought it was entirely obvious that they were imaginary - because their actual existence was bound to her spell around the town. Like they actually literally said this in the last episode and everything. 

[DMC]

Just now, Karlbear said:

k. I'd recommend watching it again. 

I did right before posting that.  I'd recommend the same!

1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

Banner went away not to learn how to control his powers, but to instead learn how to suppress them entirely, remove them.

No, he didn't.  Have you seen Incredible Hulk?  The final scene is him smiling because he figured out how to control it, not suppress or remove them.  Like, literally, this is wikipedia's description of the scene:  "Instead of suppressing his transformation, he begins to transform in a controlled manner with a slight smirk."  Avengers also makes this very clear.

3 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

I don't know about you, but if I have connections to the world's most powerful organizations and minds including a literal master of magic, my first choice would not be to read a book of the damned that was possessed by an evil power hungry 400 year old witch.

I agree she shoulda gone to Strange - pretty sure I said that.  But not doing so hardly makes her a villain.  As for avoiding the book because it's "of the damned," meh, knowledge is knowledge in my book.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

I'm not sure Banner killed anyone other than villains in the MCU.

He definitely killed Doug.  And he wasn't "under mind control" when he became the Hulk for 2 years and presumably killed a lot other Dougs.

[Jaxom 1974]

33 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

 

I'm not sure Banner killed anyone other than villains in the MCU.

 

 

Pretty sure even Captain America has killed without much thought...WWII sure, but he tossed at least one mind controlled SHIELD agent off of the Helicarrier in the first Avengers movie...gotta think that guy wasn't evil...

In any case, it's unfortunate that the end of the series didn’t give a little more clarity on some subjects.

I, for one, am not 100% convinced she was using the Darkhold at the end to look for her children, or even recreate them, but whatever it was she was doing, it's clear she heard them...and maybe that's the multiverse shining through...

[Kalbear]

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

I did right before posting that.  I'd recommend the same!

So the ominous music as we see her combined with the look of absolute rage and her shutting the book with a red slash is...surprise? 

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, he didn't.  Have you seen Incredible Hulk?  The final scene is him smiling because he figured out how to control it, not suppress or remove them.  Like, literally, this is wikipedia's description of the scene:  "Instead of suppressing his transformation, he begins to transform in a controlled manner with a slight smirk."  Avengers also makes this very clear.

And he proceeds to not use those powers in any single way for the next few years. 

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

I agree she shoulda gone to Strange - pretty sure I said that.  But not doing so hardly makes her a villain.  As for avoiding the book because it's "of the damned," meh, knowledge is knowledge in my book.

The book literally possesses people and makes them do evil things. Y'all didn't watch enough Buffy or Evil Dead in your formative years.

 

26 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

Yeah I think you need to watch Ragnorok again. Or, any Hulk movie. Dude kills people straight up.

Yeah, I feel bad about Doug. That's totally fair! It's also not really Banner at that point, right?

26 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

And I'm not sure how "Thanks for choosing me as your mom" and Vision, who is actually imaginary, saying goodbye to his kids and the whole fact this ties directly into DS2 and was originally going to air two weeks before DS2 opened makes you think the kids are imaginary.

Because literally we're told that they're part of her spell? I'm glad that you can predict precisely how a movie which hasn't come out yet and isn't even scheduled for a while is going to go, but I'll be going with the actual text. 

Also, in the comic books they're entirely made-up, right? 

26 minutes ago, Mr Gordo said:

I mean I'm not saying what she did was OK but if she is a villain then so are 2/3rds of the Avengers.

Please indicate where any one of the avengers mind controlled a town for their entire selfish desires. If the closest you can come to her level of villainy is either the Hulk (who personally recognizes himself as massively problematic and has taken a lot of pains to try to repent) or Wanda herself, I don't think that's a great argument.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

So the ominous music as we see her combined with the look of absolute rage and her shutting the book with a red slash is...surprise? 

When she hears the kids her first reaction definitely seems to be a look of surprise to me.  Then, yes, it turns to anger.  Probably because she's hearing her kids crying for help.  

3 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

And he proceeds to not use those powers in any single way for the next few years. 

Who cares if he didn't use them for a few years?  Point is he wasn't trying to remove them at all - which is what you said - and instead was trying to gain control over them.  Which he didn't have during the next outbreak on the helicarrier.

6 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

The book literally possesses people and makes them do evil things. Y'all didn't watch enough Buffy or Evil Dead in your formative years.

Or I just thought Buffy was a silly show I had no interest in as a teenager.  And how could Wanda know the book itself possessed Agatha to do evil things?  Hell, I don't even know how we're supposed to know that up to this point.

8 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

It's also not really Banner at that point, right?

....Which was my point of comparing the Scarlett Witch persona to the Hulk in the first place.