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H Wadsey Longfellow

Impeachment for Jon and Aerys

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 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

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Oh, another stark hate post. Orginal.

Jon wasn't a bad Lord Commander. He made the right calls to preserve the Nights Watch, put an end to the destructive and needless war with the Wildlings, struck a deal with the Iron Bank to provide funds for food and other supplies, and took steps to prepare the Watch for the fight with the Others. Allowing wildlings to take the Nights Watch oath was a smart idea, solving some problems with manning the Watch. Jon's biggest mistakes were due to his inability to set aside his sister by becoming the duty robot Measter Aemon wanted. And no, executing Janos Slynt was in no way a tragedy.

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Posted (edited)

Impeachment doesn't apply to an absolute monarch like Aerys.  Jon, on the other hand, could have been recalled.  A recall would call for another vote and Jon would have lost.  Marsh wanted to give Jon a chance because he is a loyal man of the Watch.  It was not until the pink letter revealed every illegal activity on the part of Jon that Marsh decided to take action.  The opportune time to remove him through vote or impeachment never came because Jon took them by surprise.  The Wildlings would have stopped the election.

Edited by Rondo

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23 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Oh, another stark hate post. Orginal.

 

Not at all.  But I'm not surprised that you would see it that way.  I could say the same thing about Jaenera's topic about Dany. 

Just because I have a negative opinion of Jon does not mean it's a hate post.  An impeachment earlier would have landed Jon's ass in an ice cell instead of getting executed for worse crimes later in the story.

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Criticize his leadership and choices all you want, but comparing Jon to the Mad King is reeks of being a hate post. At best it's disingenuous. He's a boy in his teens doing the best he can(Nevermind the NW were the ones who elected that inexperienced teen) vs a man who gets sexually aroused to the point of raping people at burning people alive. 

As for impeachment procedures this is Westeros. Might makes right. Bowen Marsh and Jaime Lannister initiated impeachment procedures against Snow and Aerys respectively. 

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1 hour ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

They were scared. He just executed a man for a minor offense. It's reasonable for them to fear Jon.  Given Jon's mental state, yes, he would have killed them if they had called a meeting to vote him out of his job.  Assassination was the only way to stop Jon from further dragging the NW into war.  

A recall is currently under way in California for a liberal district attorney. I believe 50k signatures are required to hold an election for his city. The NW doesn't need this kind of formality. They are so low in numbers such that a meeting would suffice. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

They were scared. He just executed a man for a minor offense. It's reasonable for them to fear Jon.  Given Jon's mental state, yes, he would have killed them if they had called a meeting to vote him out of his job.  Assassination was the only way to stop Jon from further dragging the NW into war.  

A recall is currently under way in California for a liberal district attorney. I believe 50k signatures are required to hold an election for his city. The NW doesn't need this kind of formality. They are so low in numbers such that a meeting would suffice. 

Is there any evidence that most of the Nights Watch and the defenders of the Wall wanted Jon removed as Lord Commander?  Bowen Marsh & Co. might well find they acted for a small minority.

Edited by SeanF

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17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Is there any evidence that most of the Nights Watch and the defenders of the Wall wanted Jon removed as Lord Commander?  Bowen Marsh & Co. might well find they acted for a small minority.

 

1 hour ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

The problem here is that the whole idea of an impeachment or destructive behaviour prior to jon's last chapter is ridiculous.

Why would the NW want to impeach jon?

Because he killed one subordinate that refused to obey and mocked his authority?

Because he was manning and repairing the other castles?

Because he didn't went to war with stannis in order to expel him from NW lands after stannis saved them?

Because he was incorporating wildlings that stannis brought south of the wall into the NW instead of letting them do nothing?

Because he brought 4K wildlings south with a peace agreement and gold before they could join other wildlings in fighting the NW or become part of the ww army?

And even after hearing about the PL, why would the NW members believe that ramsay is alive? They saw him burning. And how could they blame jon for not answering the demands in the letter when farya and reek aren't even in CB? And how many of them would agree to hand over all the poeple the letter demanded? 

At most they could disagree with leading an army of wildlings to winterfell, but there wasn't time for them to reach any consensus about that before some of them decided to try to kill jon...

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1 hour ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Not at all.  But I'm not surprised that you would see it that way.  I could say the same thing about Jaenera's topic about Dany. 

Just because I have a negative opinion of Jon does not mean it's a hate post.  An impeachment earlier would have landed Jon's ass in an ice cell instead of getting executed for worse crimes later in the story.

Lumping Jon in with Mad King Aerys is pretty disengenous, especially since you're ignoring a large chunk of what Jon Snow actually did as LC. Jon wasn't perfect, of course, but he was justified in his actions and tried to improve the Watch's long term situation. His failure to engage with his men, and his tacit support of Mance Rayder's mission in Winterfell are the major knocks against his leadership. Comparing him to the Mad King does not strike me as an especially good faith argument. It's like calling a politician you oppose a Nazi.

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yeah and the execution of Slint is pretty legitimate. to defy the order of your lord commander or liege lord is treason. it was definitely harsh, but the reason officers like Thorne stepped aside when it happened, was because Jon was in the right in doing so.

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I hate the little bastard as much as the next guy but Jon killing Slynt was completely justified.

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He should have been removed for involving the Nights Watch with non watch issues. Stannis helped us, that's fine, you can stay and we can feed you for a bit as gratitude but you can't base yourself out of the wall and thus violate neutrality that has kept the watch going for Milenia. He's an idiot. And I say that as a Stannis fan. If he's gonna do that then he should have taken Stannis' offer. 

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1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

yeah and the execution of Slint is pretty legitimate. to defy the order of your lord commander or liege lord is treason. it was definitely harsh, but the reason officers like Thorne stepped aside when it happened, was because Jon was in the right in doing so.

Careful, we're close to starting up the Janos Slynt, oppressed hero argument again. :rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

He should have been removed for involving the Nights Watch with non watch issues. Stannis helped us, that's fine, you can stay and we can feed you for a bit as gratitude but you can't base yourself out of the wall and thus violate neutrality that has kept the watch going for Milenia. He's an idiot. And I say that as a Stannis fan. If he's gonna do that then he should have taken Stannis' offer. 

But how can jon prevent stannis from doing whatever he wants in the NW? IS he suposed to fight against stannis? If he expels selise and her retinue that stannis left there what can he say if he returns victorius and is looking for revenge? And we can't forget that stannis plans to return and help the NW fight against the others and therefore makes sense that he has some kind of base there.

jon needs to keep a balance between beeing too friendly and too antagonist to stannis. And while it is debatable if at times he isn't too suportive it is easy to argue that he did it to help the NW.

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13 minutes ago, divica said:

But how can jon prevent stannis from doing whatever he wants in the NW? IS he suposed to fight against stannis? If he expels selise and her retinue that stannis left there what can he say if he returns victorius and is looking for revenge? And we can't forget that stannis plans to return and help the NW fight against the others and therefore makes sense that he has some kind of base there.

jon needs to keep a balance between beeing too friendly and too antagonist to stannis. And while it is debatable if at times he isn't too suportive it is easy to argue that he did it to help the NW.

I can't host you or support you in your conflicts south, and I can't force you out. We will feed your daughter and queen as befits guests but we can't provide food or lodging for your troops aside from what they themselves can acquire. He doesn't need to attack Stannis, just ignore him and either make him leave or force him to attack the watch. Help Stannis provides means nothing when Neutrality is breached. What will Warden of the North whoever he is in the future think when knowing Watch could host his enemies if Lord Commander doesn't like him. Do you think he won't act and attack it or threaten it if they even think of selecting someone who doesn't like him. What happens to the premise that men go to the watch and forget their previous loyalties and crimes when they act in such a way. 

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1 minute ago, Hrulj said:

I can't host you or support you in your conflicts south, and I can't force you out. We will feed your daughter and queen as befits guests but we can't provide food or lodging for your troops aside from what they themselves can acquire. He doesn't need to attack Stannis, just ignore him and either make him leave or force him to attack the watch. Help Stannis provides means nothing when Neutrality is breached. What will Warden of the North whoever he is in the future think when knowing Watch could host his enemies if Lord Commander doesn't like him. Do you think he won't act and attack it or threaten it if they even think of selecting someone who doesn't like him. What happens to the premise that men go to the watch and forget their previous loyalties and crimes when they act in such a way. 

But jon isn't hosting stannis because he wants. There was a battle where stannis helped the NW and therefore they housed him for a while. what were they supposed to do?  Afterwards jon only houses selise, shireen and their guard. 

And you can't forget that stannis could take all the food he wanted by force if jon refused him (that was one of jon's concerns regarding stannis), wanted to give some of the castles of the NW to his loyal bannermen and wants to help in the fight against the others. He needs be careful with his interactions with stannis because he doesn't want him to end up attacking the NW. I don't know why you think that it would be good if stannis attacked them...

Besides jon's advices it is hard to say the he is helping or housing stannis. And stannis is also the only one that helped the NW and is willing to help them against the WW. Is jon suposed to turn away the only leader that is helping the NW? 

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5 hours ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

 A procedure should have been in place for the removal of incompetent and destructive leaders like Aerys Targaryen and Jon Snow.  Further tragedy might have been prevented if Bowen Marsh and the watch had impeached Jon Snow before he sent Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  The best time to impeach Jon was right after he killed Janos Slynt.  Removing Jon from office at that time would have prevented most of the damage that he created for the watch.

Beheading is how inept leaders are impeached.  Jon would have literally lost his head.  No great loss.  He was already lost to reason.  

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What forced Bowen Marsh to assassinate Jon was the business with Arya and Ramsay.  A man of the Night's Watch under Jon's command infiltrated Winterfell, killed Bolton soldiers, and took Ramsay's bride.  Any noble house would treat this assault as an act of aggression from Jon.  

I can't look up the sequence of events at the moment.  Did Mance leave for Winterfell before or after Slynt was killed?  If they left before then removing Jon after he killed Slynt was too late.  Jon would need to be removed before he could order Mance to find his sister.  

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13 minutes ago, Rondo said:

What forced Bowen Marsh to assassinate Jon was the business with Arya and Ramsay.  A man of the Night's Watch under Jon's command infiltrated Winterfell, killed Bolton soldiers, and took Ramsay's bride.  Any noble house would treat this assault as an act of aggression from Jon.  

I can't look up the sequence of events at the moment.  Did Mance leave for Winterfell before or after Slynt was killed?  If they left before then removing Jon after he killed Slynt was too late.  Jon would need to be removed before he could order Mance to find his sister.  

If the NW saw mance being burned alive why would they believe in the PL? And it even says that ramsay wants arya and reek and they aren't in CB. Why would any NW brother believe that jon sent a burned man to retrieve his sister that isn't in CB?

Bowen attacked jon because he was leading a wildling army to atack the boltons, sending the NW to rescue wildlings at hardhome and bowen was afraid that either action would lead to his death and the deaths of many of his brothers.

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