Covid-19 #40: Hoping for Endings

[Padraig]

56 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

So, to be blunt, I take it that the by-default position here around is that we should leave to potentially die people who did everything right in the last 18 months yet had cancer, accident or whatever, because we have to care for the sociopaths who never cared about the rest of the population, never wore masks and didn't get the vaccines? Does anyone really think this is a more ethical position?

These views are just right wing populism.  You keep politics out of health care.

And yes, I know you are more likely to be on the right if you are anti-vaccine but you have to be careful that you become so determined to punish these people that you use their own tactics against them.

11 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Your privilege blinds you I feel.

It is possible.  Some self-reflection is good for everybody.

11 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

All the anti-vaxxers I know personally use clear "only the weak and old will suffer" arguments. They don't care plain and simple and news about vaccine breakthroughs fill them with joy.

Yes, these are horrible people.  But nobody ever said "I don't want a vaccine because I don't care about people".  Its correlation, not causation.

Look, I do get it is very frustrating.  I'm not going to say it is fair.  But you can't have purity tests regarding access to health care.  It may eventually be used against you.

[Paxter]

12 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

All the anti-vaxxers I know personally use clear "only the weak and old will suffer" arguments. They don't care plain and simple and news about vaccine breakthroughs fill them with joy.

I live in a right wing majority country and have a blue collar job.

You guys live in a different world I suspect having jobs that can be done from the safety of your home.

Your privilege blinds you I feel.

And your privilege binds you, no, since under your model you wouldn’t be denied health care? Everyone in it for themselves.

Anyway I’m grateful that this argument isn’t really playing out anywhere other than online.

[Luzifer's right hand]

51 minutes ago, Paxter said:

And your privilege binds you, no, since under your model you wouldn’t be denied health care? Everyone in it for themselves.

Anyway I’m grateful that this argument isn’t really playing out anywhere other than online.

I would not get an ICU bed anyway has I have living will that prevents all life supporting measures.

Edit: Obviously I have the option to set that aside and you never know when death is a real option but if I get to a hospital unconscious I'm dead if I require such measures.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Paxter said:

this argument isn’t really playing out anywhere other than online.

That is not the case at all.  Just starting with how often we have heard out of their own mouths politicians in Florida, TX etc. just out and out say the old should just die so everyone else can keep their normal lives and economy.  That has been the plan from the beginning.

The anti-vaxxers are becoming ever more aggressive in real space and time at attacking those of us who are doing the right thing. 

Yesterday for the first time since the pandemic we went up to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which one cannot enter without proof of vaccination and wearing a mask, which must be worn the entire time one is inside.  With the numbers inside, and the very long, close lines of people waiting to get into the special exhibits, one can see why.  The protocols for handling all of it from tix (which can be gotten ahead of time online) along with the reservation time for entry-viewing are very well handled.

However there was a huge crowd of crazies outside with megaphones and signage who were harassing everyone waiting OUTSIDE for their turn to enter, and particularly physically harassing the staff which was keeping things orderly and safe.  Among other things they did was push and shove and cough at people, try to pull off their masks.

And this situation was kept less aggressive and unruly than many others in other parts of the country that comply far less with vaccination, masking in public spaces and distancing. Lordessa only knows what will happen when millions from all over the globe start coming here in another week.

 

[Zorral]

13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

That is not the case at all.  Just starting with how often we have heard out of their own mouths politicians in Florida, TX etc. just out and out say the old should just die so everyone else can keep their normal lives and economy.  That has been the plan from the beginning.

The anti-vaxxers are becoming ever more aggressive in real space and time at attacking those of us who are doing the right thing. 

Yesterday for the first time since the pandemic we went up to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which one cannot enter without proof of vaccination and wearing a mask, which must be worn the entire time one is inside.  With the numbers inside, and the very long, close lines of people waiting to get into the special exhibits, one can see why.  The protocols for handling all of it from tix (which can be gotten ahead of time online) along with the reservation time for entry-viewing are very well handled.

However there was a crowd of crazies outside with megaphones and signage who were harassing everyone waiting OUTSIDE for their turn to enter, and particularly physically harassing the staff which was keeping things orderly and safe.  Among other things they did was push and shove and cough at people, try to pull off their masks. These fuckers did their best to spoil for us, what was a lovely, exceptional day (when we left we continued on to visit for an hour a friend who lives near the museum, which was an even more special experience).

And this situation was kept less aggressive and unruly than many others in other parts of the country that comply far less with vaccination, masking in public spaces and distancing. Lordessa only knows what will happen when millions from all over the globe start coming here in another week.

In the meantime more and more health care workers, nurses and doctors are just quitting because they are burned out and can no longer deal.  We are seeing doctors speaking out regarding triage -- including the decision to no longer see patients in their system who aren't vaccinated -- unless, for health reasons.

 

 

 

[TrueMetis]

Ya'll remember how a whole bunch of places triage protocols discriminated, and discriminate, against people with disabilities? These decision on who gets care are going to be made, there's no other option because there's just not enough resource. And of all of the potential factors for deciding who gets care, vaccine status is one of the easiest and most moral. But sure we can continue the "fuck people with disabilities" policy instead.

[HoodedCrow]

Zorral, videotape it?

[Pebble thats Stubby]

2 hours ago, Paxter said:

And your privilege binds you, no, since under your model you wouldn’t be denied health care? Everyone in it for themselves.

Anyway I’m grateful that this argument isn’t really playing out anywhere other than online.

my Cousin is currently being denied her cancer treatment because services are being diverted to treat covid patients.    Without treatment she will die, maybe not immediately and not as soon as denying people with covid treatment.  But don't you dare tell me people are not being denied life saving medical treatment.  This is not just a philosophical debate on the internet.  Have some compassion for those that have been denied care because they are invisible in the statistics.  

 

I am not saying care should not be prioritised for Covid patients at the expense of cancer patients.  In truth I don't know, I am too personally involved to make an objective assessment.  But I am fucking angry  If people had been more sensible maybe we wouldn't have to deny anyone care.

[Zorral]

26 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Zorral, videotape it?

I didn't (still have managed not to have a smart fone).  Others were, at least I assumed that was what they were doing with their fones -- there should be something on twitter? (am not a twitterer). Also I just wanted to get away as quickly as possible, as we were off to see an elderly friend and did not wish to bring upset, anger and depression in with us, someone whom we had seen only one other time since vaccination.

Particularly upsetting is we overheard inside museum personnel asking what they could do about this -- the NYC cops absolutely refused to come or do anything.  Not a single cop in sight anywhere on that stretch of Fifth Ave and Central Park.

[DireWolfSpirit]

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

But nobody ever said "I don't want a vaccine because I don't care about people".  Its correlation, not causation.

You don't know apparently how black hearted some of these people are then.

Because I have heard that exact sentiment expressed by people that refuse to vaccinate.

Often the expression includes a (" When did it become my job to make sure others are safe?") variation or outright stating.

[Paxter]

1 hour ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

But don't you dare tell me people are not being denied life saving medical treatment. 

I didn’t say or intend to say the above. I hope everything with your cousin works out well. I had appendicitis myself a month ago and had to deal with a full hospital, so I have some real-life understanding of the situation.

I just don’t believe for a second that any health care professional deserving of the name would triage out someone who denied a vaccine.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I almost feel that sitting with hands behind back is another form of violating that oath of "first do no harm".

When you knowingly aren't protecting the innocent that need intensive care. There are not enough beds/units available, yet we have people advocating the innocent go without to accommodate the willfully dangerous.

We don't allow that behavior with other dangerous behavior. If you have a firearm you have rules to follow, if you have transmissible disease your supposed to use protection, why would it be okay for people to endanger others by not being vaxxed and also consequently making it so there are not enough beds to go around for the innocent?

The innocent who we should be protecting.

This is the position Sean Penn expressed on Bill Maher and I think it's ethically better than sitting on your hands.

[TrueMetis]

57 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

You don't know apparently how black hearted some of these people are then.

Because I have heard that exact sentiment expressed by people that refuse to vaccinate.

Often the expression includes a (" When did it become my job to make sure others are safe?") variation or outright stating.

And even among those who won't say that, and plenty do, it becomes hard to believe that the reason is anything else but "fuck you" when they have been given so very many options. All their oh so "reasonable" objections have been answered, the vaccines have been fully approved, it's no longer an emergency authorization, there's more conventional vaccines for those worried about mRNA, so many doses have been given that we have a very good idea of possible side effects and how minor and rare they are, with all that no matter how they try and couch their reasoning how can you read their objection as anything but "no fuck you."

[Paxter]

31 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I almost feel that sitting with hands behind back is another form of violating that oath of "first do no harm".

When you knowingly aren't protecting the innocent that need intensive care. There are not enough beds/units available, yet we have people advocating the innocent go without to accommodate the willfully dangerous.

We don't allow that behavior with other dangerous behavior. If you have a firearm you have rules to follow, if you have transmissible disease your supposed to use protection, why would it be okay for people to endanger others by not being vaxxed and also consequently making it so there are not enough beds to go around for the innocent?

The innocent who we should be protecting.

This is the position Sean Penn expressed on Bill Maher and I think it's ethically better than sitting on your hands.

The concept of “innocence” or fault is not part of a decent health care system. If it was, we could potentially deny treatment to boxers, smokers, skiiers, terrorists, bad drivers etc. 

I understand that the circumstances of COVID are different to the above and that there is a lot of anger towards anti-vaxxers compared to, say, drunk drivers or base jumpers. But I don’t think we should just change the fundamentals of health care on the fly like this. A lot of the arguments seem to be driven by anger towards people rather than good health care practice.

[HoodedCrow]

They want to know about health insurance first. Zorral, it’s in case you get assaulted:(

[DireWolfSpirit]

56 minutes ago, Paxter said:

The concept of “innocence” or fault is not part of a decent health care system. If it was, we could potentially deny treatment to boxers, smokers, skiiers, terrorists, bad drivers etc. 

I understand that the circumstances of COVID are different to the above and that there is a lot of anger towards anti-vaxxers compared to, say, drunk drivers or base jumpers. But I don’t think we should just change the fundamentals of health care on the fly like this. A lot of the arguments seem to be driven by anger towards people rather than good health care practice.

Lol, I'm not referring to "good or decent" HC, I'm talking about the deplorable for profit HC millions of us in the U.S. are the victim of.

Smokers are punished under some HC plans with higher premiums. They get around the suspect legality by just declaring they are not getting singled out or discriminated against, they are merely not getting the "discounted" rate they are giving younger and healthier non tobacco users.

Under for profit systems there's no universality involved outside universal profit to the providers and subsidizing the losses. It's truly the worst of choices for the consumers who don't enjoy getting soaked.

[DireWolfSpirit]

delete: strangely the post appeared twice

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

They want to know about health insurance first. Zorral, it’s in case you get assaulted:(

I'm sorry -- to what are you referring?  

O wait, you mean medical people have no trouble turning away people without health insurance?  You betcha.

Now this is going to be interesting, though so far no one's talking about it out in those Rocky Mountain states, plus prairie state, North Dakota, where Delta continues to rage and vast numbers continue to refuse vaccination.  Before vaccines the medical insurance corps were carrying a lot of the costs of treatment. But they've stopped now.  There's a guy in North Dakota who was in ICU for over a month, and then they shipped him to another facility for treatment and therapy.  He didn't die, but he can't do anything.  Think of what that cost him. And he's still refusing to get vaccinated, and probably, though the local paper reporting this didn't say, denying there is anything such thing as covid.

[A True Kaniggit]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I don't think this would happen in a southern city where most people are already anti-vaxx, anti-mask and think those who are not are nazis. 

Ha. I see you’ve met some of my coworkers. 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Paxter said:

I just don’t believe for a second that any health care professional deserving of the name would triage out someone who denied a vaccine.

You may disbelieve all you like but it is happening -- because in medical emergencies that overwhelm the number personnel and supplies to handle them all, it always happens -- see disasters, particularly battlefields.  We have entire states whose hospitals CANNOT deal with anyone because they are overwhelmed.  They can only finally ship them out to another state, and at this point it is cancer patients and so on who are getting first attention, and new covid patients have to wait.  There are no beds or personnel for anything.