Covid-19 #40: Hoping for Endings

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

While comorbidities are a significant factor, being vaccinated still greatly increases your chance of surviving even if you get to the point of being hospitalized.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8313045/

Reading this being vaccinated reduces your chance of dying even if hospitalized significantly (12.5% died of the vaxxed, 31.4% died of the unvaxxed)

That's not an apples to apples comparison. Yes, I agree! But we're not talking about  that - we're talking about who gets a bed, and who needs treatment for longer periods of time.

And simply saying that someone with otherwise precisely the same symptoms is going to make it out better because they're vaccinated is inaccurate. 

[The Anti-Targ]

59 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8313045/

Reading this being vaccinated reduces your chance of dying even if hospitalized significantly (12.5% died of the vaxxed, 31.4% died of the unvaxxed)

this paper https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm isn't targeted towards deaths in hospital, so it is not directly contradictory, but it seems the death rate compared to hospitalisation is about the same between vaxed and unvaxed. And interestingly the death rate compared to diagnosed cases is also about the same (marginally higher for vaxed in both cases, possibly not statistically significant). Though paired with the study you cite it could be argued that vaxed people possibly benefit a lot more from hospitalisation than unvaxed people. Interestingly this CDC paper suggests that IF you get symptomatic COVID-19 then your are just as likely to die whether or not you are vaxed. The difference being vaxed makes is that you are a lot less likely to get symptomatic COVID-19, or at least not symptomatic enough to decide  to get tested.

Big anti-vaccination mandate today (we have a mandate for teachers, healthcare workers and most people working at the border). No doubt some teachers, border workers and healthcare workers there, but also a big rent-a-crowd of general anti-vaxxers. Quite a few people showing their strong patriotism to New Zealand by waving their Trump flags around. Funny that it was Trump who claimed to have put the vaccine on the fast track.

[Padraig]

50 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

The reality is that "patients are prioritized based on need" is an incredibly simplified method of triage and not actually what emergency rooms typically use, because if someone is going to die with a high certainty, they may have strictly the highest need, but they're probably going to be a waste of resources that can be better used elsewhere.

I get that.

I put that definition out there because it gives the general framework.  And it came from a medical source, not me.  You can layer on the complicating factors on top of that.

To be honest, I'm not particularly interested in debating what the right triage approach is.  And I don't have the stomach for it.  I'll leave that to the medical experts, who I would largely trust.  What disturbed me about this thread was how the non-medical experts were saying they know best.

There is no system which doesn't end up with horrible outcomes, if your system isn't resourced correctly.  That's why I think the focus should be on the system.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I get that.

I put that definition out there because it gives the general framework.  And it came from a medical source, not me.  You can layer on the complicating factors on top of that.

To be honest, I'm not particularly interested in debating what the right triage approach is.  And I don't have the stomach for it.  I'll leave that to the medical experts, who I would largely trust.  What disturbed me about this thread was how the non-medical experts were saying they know best.

There is no system which doesn't end up with horrible outcomes, if your system isn't resourced correctly.  That's why I think the focus should be on the system.

This.

Plus, the triage process should not be based on vindictiveness towards the people who are sick. Period. 

[The Anti-Targ]

Is it possible to resource a system adequately to deal with a deadly pandemic? You are talking about a large amount of redundancy in the system to be able to deal with a prolonged surge in demand without having to make some people miss out. Even if you build the facilities and the equipment and keep them in good condition waiting for the next pandemic, you still won't have the staff sitting around ready to be called up at a moment's notice.

But it would be nice to be fully resourced for the normal level of demand in between pandemics. That would be a start at least.

[The Anti-Targ]

Punitive or vindictive attitudes have no place in delivering medical care. However that does not mean vaccination status can't be included in the information that is used to make hospital admission decisions. And that's not just for COVID patients. Vaccination status of any potential admission should be considered given there is a better chance of an unvaccinated person catching and spreading the disease while in hospital. So if the hospital is experiencing over-crowding issues then the fewer unvaxed people in there the better, for the safety of all concerned.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

As I mentioned earlier my cousin is currently being denied treatment for her cancer because there is not enough resources  due to Covid and long term underfunding in the NHS.  So I think you can understand that I have a personal stake in this.  I am finding discussions on who should or who should not get treatment difficult and frankly unproductive.

I also feel this discussion has gone on long enough that people have had the chance to say their piece.  I'd appreciate it if we could move on,  maybe discuss why people are being denied treatment instead on who we should just let die  - lets leave that to the medical professionals who are best able to make the choice and give them every sympathy in having to be the ones make that choice.

Whoever you do give treatment to, denies someone else treatment.  this is costing lives.  Its not fair,  no system can be fair to those denied treatment.  You need a damned good reason to deny someone live saving treatment, being angry at them is not a good enough reason.

Yes I am angry at those that won't take the vaccine, wont wear masks and keep on engaging in risky behaviour spreading the disease.  But I'm more angry at the governments that allow people to act this way due to their own inactions or rule breaking.

Maybe vaccination status should have some impact on what we can or can't do, but that should not include access to basic life services.  Not being able to go to the cinema is not going to kill you.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Fuck I missed that, I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you.  Not a day goes by .... That we who remain are often angry at or about the death of someone near is very common in the complex of everything pulled up by their deaths. But the anger I feel about hers and my nieces is == not like that.

[The Anti-Targ]

L fookin' OL

From an anti vaccine mandate protester at today's protest

Quote

Murray Atkins travelled down from Gisborne for the protest. He said he was a driving instructor about to lose his job because he refused the jab.

“At the end of the day, I consider my job isn't as important as my health,” Atkins said.

 

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 The difference being vaxed makes is that you are a lot less likely to get symptomatic COVID-19, or at least not symptomatic enough to decide  to get tested.

The paper says that after Delta, if you are vaccinated, you are 5 times less likely to get COVID, more than 10 times less likely to end up in hospital and more than 10 times less likely to die.

Based on those basic numbers, if you get still COVID but are vaccinated, you are at least half as likely to end up in hospital. 

But yes, once you are hospitalised, the chance of dying isn't hugely different (which isn't surprising).

53 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So if the hospital is experiencing over-crowding issues then the fewer unvaxed people in there the better, for the safety of all concerned.

Sure.  The fewer unhealthy people in there the better too.  I'll ignore any other interpretation.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is it possible to resource a system adequately to deal with a deadly pandemic?

Yes, you start with mandating people stay home, pay them so they don't lose their job, enforce strict rules on these things and once you're past the shittiest part make sure you contact trace and selectively quarantine.

Oh, wait, you're probably not talking about that, you're probably talking about letting an unmanaged pandemic run rampant. Oh, right, well, in that case you can probably mandate vaccines and mandate certain rules about indoor businesses and...

oh...wait. You can't do that either?

Fucking America.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Freedom isn't free, Kal! 

[Spockydog]

9 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Freedom isn't free, Kal! 

Certainly not in Singapore.

Singapore to start charging Covid patients who are ‘unvaccinated by choice’

Quote

 

Singapore will no longer pay the Covid-19 medical bills for people “unvaccinated by choice”, the government said, as the country grapples with a surge in cases.

The government currently covers the full Covid medical costs for all Singaporeans, as well as permanent residents and long-term visa holders, unless they test positive soon after returning home from overseas.

However from 8 December, the government said it will “begin charging Covid-19 patients who are unvaccinated by choice”.

It said unvaccinated people “make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive in-patient care and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our healthcare resources”.

Covid-related medical bills will still be paid for people who aren’t eligible for a vaccine. The government will also foot the bill for individuals who are partially vaccinated until 31 December, giving them time to get a second dose.

Singapore has among the highest coverage rates in the world, with 85% of the eligible population fully vaccinated.

 

Seems fair. 

I know we won't, but we should really try something like this here in the UK. 

Not vaccinated then hospitalized because you read some horseshit on Facebook? Okay, you broke the societal contract, here is a bill for £50000.

 

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Certainly not in Singapore.

Singapore to start charging Covid patients who are ‘unvaccinated by choice’

Seems fair. 

I know we won't, but we should really try something like this here in the UK. 

Not vaccinated then hospitalized because you read some horseshit on Facebook? Okay, you broke the societal contract, here is a bill for £50000.

 

Charging people to use the NHS seems a really bad precedent to set regardless of the circumstances.

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Certainly not in Singapore.

Singapore to start charging Covid patients who are ‘unvaccinated by choice’

Seems fair. 

I know we won't, but we should really try something like this here in the UK. 

Not vaccinated then hospitalized because you read some horseshit on Facebook? Okay, you broke the societal contract, here is a bill for £50000.

 

I resent people who are grossly over weight, who smoke, eat badly , who drink to excess and who generally live unhealthy lifestyles, all taking up space in the NHS and overloading the system but I would never call for them to be prevented from being treated or stopped from being given the same universal healthcare we expect in the UK. 
 

It’s interesting how such vengeful and authoritarian tendencies have emerged during this pandemic. 

[Fragile Bird]

22 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It’s interesting how such vengeful and authoritarian tendencies have emerged during this pandemic. 

Honestly, this is nothing new. I’ve been hearing people say that smokers, drinkers and the very obese should be put on the bottom of the health lists for 20 or 30 years. I think the pandemic has made people more vocal about that and has also attracted more people to the idea.

[Zorral]

After falling since sometime in October the US's numbers of new cases is crawling up again.  The local dashboard put up the stats yesterday for the previous week -- the week that began with Halloween.  Our zip code is up for new cases too.  So is the most vaccinated state, Vermont, which seems to think is due to Halloween parties.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/11/08/world/us-travel-restrictions-ban-covid-19/a-vermont-college-blames-halloween-parties-for-covid-outbreak

As of yesterday the travel ban is gone and Europe's here.  Here we go.  It was nice for a while to feel relatively secure in public.

 

[Week]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I resent people who are grossly over weight, who smoke, eat badly , who drink to excess and who generally live unhealthy lifestyles, all taking up space in the NHS and overloading the system but I would never call for them to be prevented from being treated or stopped from being given the same universal healthcare we expect in the UK. 
 

It’s interesting how such vengeful and authoritarian tendencies have emerged during this pandemic. 

30 seconds of a jab - no cost, very low risk, and mild side effects. Effects of an infection are far, far worse and risk spreading to others.

Weight, alcohol, smoking, eating unhealthy foods are extremely complex problems in terms of socioeconomics, genetics, access, education, etc.

There's no conflating the unvaccinated - at this point especially - with that. There may still be education and access issues with the vaxx but that's not what we're talking about here.

[JoannaL]

56 minutes ago, Zorral said:

After falling since sometime in October the US's numbers of new cases is crawling up again.  The local dashboard put up the stats yesterday for the previous week -- the week that began with Halloween.  Our zip code is up for new cases too.  So is the most vaccinated state, Vermont, which seems to think is due to Halloween parties.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/11/08/world/us-travel-restrictions-ban-covid-19/a-vermont-college-blames-halloween-parties-for-covid-outbreak

As of yesterday the travel ban is gone and Europe's here.  Here we go.  It was nice for a while to feel relatively secure in public.

 

I am of the opinion that the coronavirus infection is very much seasonal. Last year the US was about 3 weeks after the EU regarding the winter wave. I think this will repeat itself now.

 

the Europeans who are coming are fully vaccinated AND have also a fresh PCR test when they are boarding the airplane. I think they are safer than some of your (unvaccinated and untested) neighbours?

 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

The sermons for "exact same treatment" for the willfully unvaxxed keep conveniently ignoring that U.S. tobacco users are already getting hit with higher premiums under some group insurances.

The industry work around is usually presented as they aren't being hit with higher fees, they are simply being disqualified for the "discounted rate".

It's a game of semantics already.