Does the First Men and Andals even matter?

[norwaywolf123]

It oftens seems to me that readers think that houses having First Men roots make them somehow related. In my mind it is difficult to see how First Men or Andal roots matter anymore. It has been over a thousand years (2000-4000 years) since the Andals arrived in Westeros. In the time since new cultures have formed descending from both, to a larger or smaller degree. 

Does a Scottish family who's founded by Germanic arrivals 1500 years ago have more in common with a modern Dane, rather than a Scottish family descended from earlier Celtic arrivals? Keep in mind that both families are related, and descend from each other. I would say modern Scots have more in common with each other regardless of ancient origin, what makes a family Germanic or Celtic after 1500 years of intermarriage? They are simply Scottish, in my mind.

It should be unlikely that families descended from First Men across Westeros outside the North, have more in common with the Starks and other northerners than housed of Andal descent. House Lannister was originally a First Men house, later a Andal named Joffrey Lydden married in the house and became the future Lord Lannister. Later Lannisters descend from him and his Lannister First Men wife. This must have happened multiple times. Not only of Andals marrying into First Men houses, but also of First Men marrying into Andal houses. For all we know the Arryns descend from House Royce in the male line. While House Royce itself descend from House Corbray in the male line. This is why i think houses whether they were originally First Men or Andal have more in common with other houses in their region and cultural/religious sphere than houses outside.

[Willam Stark]

From a genetic point of view it's not relevant, Andals and First Men mixed together, there is no pure-blooded House anymore.

From a historical point of view, it does matter because it can help maesters to study the evolution of societies for example, the relationship between the different Houses and other things.

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

From a historical point of view, it does matter because it can help maesters to study the evolution of societies for example, the relationship between the different Houses and other things.

It mattered at the beginning when we didn't know which important House originated from the First Men.

As time went on, there's no single important House outside of the Martells and Tyrells (who married into the Gardeners anyway) who wasn't originally first men.

 

[Willam Stark]

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

As time went on, there's no single important House outside of the Martells and Tyrells (who married into the Gardeners anyway) who wasn't originally first men.

If you're talking about Lords Paramounts, there is also the Arryns.

 

[Aebram]

The Andals and the First Men have different religions. That, right there, can be the basis for a rivalry and/or hatred that will last for millennia.

Since weddings are partly religious in nature, religion can play a part in choosing a spouse. Many parents wouldn't want their son or daughter to be married in the eyes of some strange gods. Though it is known that there were intermarriages between some First Men and Andal houses, there were probably other families that only married within their own religion.

Also, the Andals didn't just settle Westeros; they invaded it, and conquered many existing lands and their kings. That's another thing that can stir up resentments that will persist for many generations.

When you have enemies, you also have allies. Before the Andals, there were probably houses in Westeros that had been enemies for centuries. But once the Andals arrived, they became allies to fight a common enemy. These  loyalties can persist long after the war is over.

I must admit, it's hard to think of specific examples of this intra-religious loyalty in the books. Perhaps a good one is that scene in AGOT where the Greatjon vows that Robb Stark is his king. All the other Northern lords immediately do the same; that seems rather impulsive. Were they just drunk? Or was their decision aided by centuries of distrust and dislike of the Andals?  It's hard to separate the geography from the religion, because the followers of the old gods are mostly in the North, and worshippers of the Seven are mostly southron. But just before he laid his sword at Robb's feet, the Greatjon did declare, "Even their gods are wrong."

[WhatAnArtist!]

2 hours ago, Aebram said:

Perhaps a good one is that scene in AGOT where the Greatjon vows that Robb Stark is his king. All the other Northern lords immediately do the same; that seems rather impulsive. Were they just drunk? Or was their decision aided by centuries of distrust and dislike of the Andals?

I don't think it's about any one issue, be it religion or culture, but a whole lot of things stacked up; the vast separation in distance, an unfriendly regime in power, a history of proud independence, etc. The religious and cultural differences are merely added on top of all of that. The biggest reasons were, in my opinion, the North's long and proud history of independence - literally thousands of years of ruling their own land - and the fact that in just the last fifteen years there's been two separate occasions of a southron king unjustly imprisoning and executing northern lords. It's completely understandable why the northerners would come to the conclusion that this experiment of bowing to southron kings has proved to be a failed one. In the whole scope of Westerosi history, it's the three hundred years of a united single kingdom that stands out as the odd exception to the rule; there's far more precedent for independent kingdoms.

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, Aebram said:

The Andals and the First Men have different religions. That, right there, can be the basis for a rivalry and/or hatred that will last for millennia.

Since weddings are partly religious in nature, religion can play a part in choosing a spouse. Many parents wouldn't want their son or daughter to be married in the eyes of some strange gods. Though it is known that there were intermarriages between some First Men and Andal houses, there were probably other families that only married within their own religion.

Also, the Andals didn't just settle Westeros; they invaded it, and conquered many existing lands and their kings. That's another thing that can stir up resentments that will persist for many generations.

When you have enemies, you also have allies. Before the Andals, there were probably houses in Westeros that had been enemies for centuries. But once the Andals arrived, they became allies to fight a common enemy. These  loyalties can persist long after the war is over.

I must admit, it's hard to think of specific examples of this intra-religious loyalty in the books. Perhaps a good one is that scene in AGOT where the Greatjon vows that Robb Stark is his king. All the other Northern lords immediately do the same; that seems rather impulsive. Were they just drunk? Or was their decision aided by centuries of distrust and dislike of the Andals?  It's hard to separate the geography from the religion, because the followers of the old gods are mostly in the North, and worshippers of the Seven are mostly southron. But just before he laid his sword at Robb's feet, the Greatjon did declare, "Even their gods are wrong."

I would say Great Jon was trying to end rule of Iron Throne on the North so they can practice the First Night, he is an Umber and they still keep the tradition in secret, if Iron Throne rule ends then they don't have to abide by the old rule of Alysanne anymore, River lords on the other hand has still some secret supporter of Targaryens and ironically may want to replace Lannister with Viserys or Daenerys even why they initially support Robb at first. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

15 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

I would say Great Jon was trying to end rule of Iron Throne on the North so they can practice the First Night

That's a hell of a risk just to screw some northern ladies.

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

That's a hell of a risk just to screw some northern ladies.

Not really, First Night means bastards, in the Wall you have the Snow Gate which is literally the bastard gate, any unwanted child could be given to the Others through that place, which is essentially another Craster incident but this time the children are much healthier, from both genders, and genetically diverse, it is like giving gifts to ice zombie khalsars which was cut off by "the Good Queen" 

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Aebram said:

I must admit, it's hard to think of specific examples of this intra-religious loyalty in the books.

The only intra-religious friction that exists in the books are that of the Ironborn and Melisandre, because their religion is super aggressive as of now.

Those who revered the Old gods and the Seven have actually achieved religious acceptance.

 

 

5 hours ago, Aebram said:

Perhaps a good one is that scene in AGOT where the Greatjon vows that Robb Stark is his king. All the other Northern lords immediately do the same; that seems rather impulsive. Were they just drunk? Or was their decision aided by centuries of distrust and dislike of the Andals?

So... What do you think it's the impulse of the Riverlords by swearing fealty to a pagan warlord? Robb doesn't just become King of the North but the Riverlands as well.

 

 

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

if Iron Throne rule ends then they don't have to abide by the old rule of Alysanne anymore,

Unless Robb decides otherwise.

 

 

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

River lords on the other hand has still some secret supporter of Targaryens and ironically may want to replace Lannister with Viserys or Daenerys even why they initially support Robb at first. 

Do they after the Darrys downfall?

[Loose Bolt]

5 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

I would say Great Jon was trying to end rule of Iron Throne on the North so they can practice the First Night

I suspect that for Umbers New Gift was more important reason than permission to rape brides. Or I assume that Umbers lost large areas of their land when that land was gifted to NW. So it is possible that Great Jon wanted those lands that his ancestors lost back under their rule.

[The Young Maester]

Whether you have first man or andal blood matters as little as an American that has either Irish or German blood. 

[BlackLightning]

10 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

Not really, First Night means bastards, in the Wall you have the Snow Gate which is literally the bastard gate, any unwanted child could be given to the Others through that place, which is essentially another Craster incident but this time the children are much healthier, from both genders, and genetically diverse, it is like giving gifts to ice zombie khalsars which was cut off by "the Good Queen" 

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

 

[The Commentator]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:18 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

It oftens seems to me that readers think that houses having First Men roots make them somehow related. In my mind it is difficult to see how First Men or Andal roots matter anymore. It has been over a thousand years (2000-4000 years) since the Andals arrived in Westeros. In the time since new cultures have formed descending from both, to a larger or smaller degree. 

Does a Scottish family who's founded by Germanic arrivals 1500 years ago have more in common with a modern Dane, rather than a Scottish family descended from earlier Celtic arrivals? Keep in mind that both families are related, and descend from each other. I would say modern Scots have more in common with each other regardless of ancient origin, what makes a family Germanic or Celtic after 1500 years of intermarriage? They are simply Scottish, in my mind.

It should be unlikely that families descended from First Men across Westeros outside the North, have more in common with the Starks and other northerners than housed of Andal descent. House Lannister was originally a First Men house, later a Andal named Joffrey Lydden married in the house and became the future Lord Lannister. Later Lannisters descend from him and his Lannister First Men wife. This must have happened multiple times. Not only of Andals marrying into First Men houses, but also of First Men marrying into Andal houses. For all we know the Arryns descend from House Royce in the male line. While House Royce itself descend from House Corbray in the male line. This is why i think houses whether they were originally First Men or Andal have more in common with other houses in their region and cultural/religious sphere than houses outside.

That may hold true for most but there are families in which the old genes are strong. The blood of the First Men runs prominently in Arya and Jon for example. The loooooong face and the scary temperament are some of the traits of the FIrst Men. It’s called the look of the north. Coarse sharp features.

 

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

No, but don't tell the author. He's spent a lot of time on it.

[The Commentator]

Westeros is a land of immigrants. 

[chrisdaw]

The rise of true believers of the Faith of the Seven and Dany's heathen army bringing a great war (2nd dance) will lead to intolerance of other religions in the aftermath of that war. This will contribute greatly to an end game realm divide of the north First Men Old Gods (Jon) against the south Andals Faith of the Seven (Tyrion/Sansa).

[Groo]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:18 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

Does a Scottish family who's founded by Germanic arrivals 1500 years ago have more in common with a modern Dane, rather than a Scottish family descended from earlier Celtic arrivals? Keep in mind that both families are related, and descend from each other. I would say modern Scots have more in common with each other regardless of ancient origin, what makes a family Germanic or Celtic after 1500 years of intermarriage? They are simply Scottish, in my mind.

You're mixing genetics with culture. There are divisions in modern day Scotland and you're right; those divisions have nothing to do with being "Celtic" vs "Germanic". But there are divisions in the society just like there are divisions in the society Martin created for the Seven Kingdoms. In his society, Andal vs First Men is a division that matters to people even though it's really shorthand for culture differences.

[WhatAnArtist!]

6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Westeros is a land of immigrants. 

Invaders, more like.

[The Commentator]

On 11/2/2021 at 12:21 AM, WhatAnArtist! said:

Invaders, more like.

Yeah. The COTF should get their lands back.