Alternative to the red wedding

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Put yourself in Lord Walder's place.  Robb Stark betrayed you.  Your son died fighting for Robb.  Is there an alternative to the red wedding that would accomplish these desirable outcomes?

1. Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.
2. Avoid economic punishment.  Lord Ambrose lost almost all of his wealth.  You can understand why Lord Walder doesn't want to lose his wealth for supporting Robb.
3. Avoid losing more men in Robb's failed rebellion.   Avoid going down with the sinking Stark ship.
4. Protect son in law Roose Bolton from punishment by the Starks.
5. Recover his expenses wasted on supporting Robb Stark.  Profit would be desirable too.
6. Punish Robb Stark.
7. Pay Hoster back for all of the insults.

[Tucu]

8. Avoid your family becoming the best pies south of the Wall

9. Avoid your family becoming tree decorations

10. Avoid your family becoming wolf snacks

[WhatAnArtist!]

Keeping all of the highborn guests at the wedding captive would have been far more prudent. Having these captives/hostages would have but a swift end to the fighting, because no northern or riverlands lords would have dared continue fighting if it meant their king or lord would be executed because of them. Murdering them all just made them martyrs, and inflamed resistance rather than quelling it.

[Daenerysthegreat]

1) Bracken was with robb till the red wedding. He got a pardon. 

2) Simple ask robb to pay the money from his war chest as compensation. 

3) After robb goes from the twins abandon his cause and imprison edmure. 

4) Don't ask roose to go with Lord. Better than that have roose killed. No one wants a Bolton for son in law. Have him get a child on walda. 

5) Read point 2

6) When robb is out of the twins and guest right no longer applies attack robb. 

7) Read point 3 and 6

8) Do all the above things

9) Do all the above things

10) Do all the above things

[Daenerysthegreat]

7 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Keeping all of the highborn guests at the wedding captive would have been far more prudent. Having these captives/hostages would have but a swift end to the fighting, because no northern or riverlands lords would have dared continue fighting if it meant their king or lord would be executed because of them. Murdering them all just made them martyrs, and inflamed resistance rather than quelling it.

And what about the lowborn army. That also comes under guest right. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

8 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

And what about the lowborn army. That also comes under guest right. 

Once the highborn guests have been taken prisoner, the army could probably be convinced to surrender. The threat of having their lords be executed because of them wouldn't be appealing.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1) And be hated and despised by everyone in Westeros, even the Faith of the Seven.

2) Having even your own allies treat you with nothing but disdain. 

3) Because of the Red Wedding no one except other Freys will ever trust you again, not even the Lannisters.

4) The hatred of the North and other rivermen means that only hostages and Lannister backing can protect you from future bloody and vicious retaliations from their part, and it's not even sure that it will be enough as seen with Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without Banners.

5) You don't even get the official lordship over the Riverlands as it's Littlefinger who get that, Tywin never promised it to you anyway.

6) The man who offered you protection is Tywin Lannister and it's not sure that once dead the rest of the Lannisters will be willing to maintain the deal nor that they will be capable of doing it. 

7) You have been promoted to be the scapegoat for the Red Wedding, so the Boltons and the Lannisters won't be accused of it and you will be the one to face consequences for it the most. 

8) With the RW you have greatly reduced the numbers of hostages you could have to protect yourself from eventual retaliations, meaning that there are many houses who won't have any hostage in your hands and who won't have any scrupules seeking revenge unless they really respect and like the houses who have a member hostage. Some won't even care if you have hostages anyway. 

9) And nothing says that the Lannisters won't abandon or betray you later anyway. 

 

So the cons of doing the Red Wedding largely outweight the pros for doing it, and it really shows how vile, petty and short-sighted the Freys are to have ever thought that it would benefit them in the long run nor that they wouldn't suffer dire consequences for it later. 

Just capturing the northern and rivermen lords and keeping them as hostages without giving salt and bread would have been far more effective and would have greatly reduced the violations and vileness of such an action. Their image would have been really damaged not nowhere as bad as it is right now.

[The hairy bear]

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Put yourself in Lord Walder's place.  Robb Stark betrayed you.  Your son died fighting for Robb.  Is there an alternative to the red wedding that would accomplish these desirable outcomes?

1. Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.
2. Avoid economic punishment.  Lord Ambrose lost almost all of his wealth.  You can understand why Lord Walder doesn't want to lose his wealth for supporting Robb.
3. Avoid losing more men in Robb's failed rebellion.   Avoid going down with the sinking Stark ship.
4. Protect son in law Roose Bolton from punishment by the Starks.
5. Recover his expenses wasted on supporting Robb Stark.  Profit would be desirable too.
6. Punish Robb Stark.
7. Pay Hoster back for all of the insults.

Easy. After Robb broke the marriage pact, lord Walder had grounds to denounce him as an oathbraker and openly declare for Joffrey. That would gain him the benefits you describe in your list without converting the Freys into pariahs that will be considered accursed and without honor for generations.

Abandoning Robb was a perfectly justified move for Walder. Joining Joffrey was a reasonable move too. But breaking one of the most sacred taboos in your culture and murdering the unarmed sons of your neighbors on a wedding... it's a sickening stupidity that can only bring dire repercussions for his house in the long term.

[Lord Lannister]

I think if Walder just closed the Twins to the Stark and Tully forces and declared himself for Joffrey most people would've agreed Robb had that coming. The Freys might not be as richly rewarded by the Lannisters but they wouldn't be the target of all wrath in the Riverlands as they are now either which probably would be better for them long term.

[Kinola]

Get in Edmure’s good graces after he weds Roslin and gradually turn him against Robb. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

11 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think if Walder just closed the Twins to the Stark and Tully forces and declared himself for Joffrey most people would've agreed Robb had that coming. The Freys might not be as richly rewarded by the Lannisters but they wouldn't be the target of all wrath in the Riverlands as they are now either which probably would be better for them long term.

 

9 minutes ago, Kinola said:

Get in Edmure’s good graces after he weds Roslin and gradually turn him against Robb. 

Both of these together could work. But how do you force Edmure to marry Roslyn? She may not find favor in his eyes.

[Moiraine Sedai]

5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Put yourself in Lord Walder's place.  Robb Stark betrayed you.  Your son died fighting for Robb.  Is there an alternative to the red wedding that would accomplish these desirable outcomes?

1. Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.
2. Avoid economic punishment.  Lord Ambrose lost almost all of his wealth.  You can understand why Lord Walder doesn't want to lose his wealth for supporting Robb.
3. Avoid losing more men in Robb's failed rebellion.   Avoid going down with the sinking Stark ship.
4. Protect son in law Roose Bolton from punishment by the Starks.
5. Recover his expenses wasted on supporting Robb Stark.  Profit would be desirable too.
6. Punish Robb Stark.
7. Pay Hoster back for all of the insults.

I wish there had been a way to kill Robb without the additional casualty.  Walder needed to secure his future and that meant the Starks had to fall completely.

By the by, can the Starks be trusted to honor their promise to force Arya to marry Elmar?  

[Jaenara Belarys]

39 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

By the by, can the Starks be trusted to honor their promise to force Arya to marry Elmar?  

Arya isn't going to marry Elmar, even if they did try to honor their promise.

A moot point anyway, since the Freys are more likely to be butchered, and the Starks would never agree to it after the Red Wedding. 

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

9 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Put yourself in Lord Walder's place.  Robb Stark betrayed you.  Your son died fighting for Robb.  Is there an alternative to the red wedding that would accomplish these desirable outcomes?

1. Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.
2. Avoid economic punishment.  Lord Ambrose lost almost all of his wealth.  You can understand why Lord Walder doesn't want to lose his wealth for supporting Robb.
3. Avoid losing more men in Robb's failed rebellion.   Avoid going down with the sinking Stark ship.
4. Protect son in law Roose Bolton from punishment by the Starks.
5. Recover his expenses wasted on supporting Robb Stark.  Profit would be desirable too.
6. Punish Robb Stark.
7. Pay Hoster back for all of the insults.

Be satisfied by the marriage of Edmure to Roslin and promise a betrothal to Robb's eventual son to one of Frey's grandaughters/ Edmure's child.

[Canon Claude]

7 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

So the cons of doing the Red Wedding largely outweight the pros for doing it, and it really shows how vile, petty and short-sighted the Freys are to have ever thought that it would benefit them in the long run nor that they wouldn't suffer dire consequences for it later. 

You know, thinking about it again, it kind of seems like the sort of thing Tyrion later mentioned at his farcical “trial”. He raged and cursed the people condemning him, and he wished he really was the monster that people thought he was. Meanwhile, the Freys just did that same thing; they became the monsters to force a respect for their house just like Tywin did. The Freys have been shat on for centuries, their reputation was already low. Having them slaughter the Stark and Tully forces after one slight too many… it’s like hearing about that kid who’s picked on until he shoots up the school. Sure, it’s not justified at all, but really, how did nobody see it coming a mile away? You push someone too far, they push back.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

You know, thinking about it again, it kind of seems like the sort of thing Tyrion later mentioned at his farcical “trial”. He raged and cursed the people condemning him, and he wished he really was the monster that people thought he was. Meanwhile, the Freys just did that same thing; they became the monsters to force a respect for their house just like Tywin did. The Freys have been shat on for centuries, their reputation was already low. Having them slaughter the Stark and Tully forces after one slight too many… it’s like hearing about that kid who’s picked on until he shoots up the school. Sure, it’s not justified at all, but really, how did nobody see it coming a mile away? You push someone too far, they push back.

But the Freys never got and will never have the respect they want to have, instead they'll have only hatred and contempt. And it's a very weak and petty excuse for such an abominable and despicable crime.

Besides that disrespect is partially something that they brought on themselves due to how obnoxious, opportunistic, smug and self-centered they are.

Maybe Walder Frey would have gotten some respect if he had shown at least one moment of genuine selfless loyalty to his liege, and if he wasn't such a jerkass. Same for the immense majority of his sons, grandsons and great-grandsons.

You spoke about a kid being picked up but they are far more comparable to a school bully who constantly antagonise others and yet complains about being disliked by others.

[James Steller]

11 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Put yourself in Lord Walder's place.  Robb Stark betrayed you.  Your son died fighting for Robb.  Is there an alternative to the red wedding that would accomplish these desirable outcomes?

1. Forgiveness from King Joffrey and Tywin for joining the rebels.
2. Avoid economic punishment.  Lord Ambrose lost almost all of his wealth.  You can understand why Lord Walder doesn't want to lose his wealth for supporting Robb.
3. Avoid losing more men in Robb's failed rebellion.   Avoid going down with the sinking Stark ship.
4. Protect son in law Roose Bolton from punishment by the Starks.
5. Recover his expenses wasted on supporting Robb Stark.  Profit would be desirable too.
6. Punish Robb Stark.
7. Pay Hoster back for all of the insults.

It's already been mentioned here somewhat, but if I was Walder, I'd wait until everyone was drunk and slumbering, then send the boy king bound and gagged to King's Landing, along with all his nobles. I'd keep Edmure as a 'guest' then when Roslin is pregnant, I send him to King's Landing as well. As for the main forces, they're leaderless and trapped in enemy territory. I'd simply have Roose and his men take control and send them home under his command once his appointment as Warden of the North is secured. Robb can spend the rest of his days in a dungeon while Grey Wind joins Nymeria (and yes, I would let Grey Wind go, because I'm bending over backwards to avoid bloodshed in this scenario).

 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

You know, thinking about it again, it kind of seems like the sort of thing Tyrion later mentioned at his farcical “trial”. He raged and cursed the people condemning him, and he wished he really was the monster that people thought he was. Meanwhile, the Freys just did that same thing; they became the monsters to force a respect for their house just like Tywin did. The Freys have been shat on for centuries, their reputation was already low. Having them slaughter the Stark and Tully forces after one slight too many… it’s like hearing about that kid who’s picked on until he shoots up the school. Sure, it’s not justified at all, but really, how did nobody see it coming a mile away? You push someone too far, they push back.

The Freys were climbing fast until they decided to bet on the second Blackfyre rebellion (Walder's father), half committed to Robert's rebellion, bargained to join the Young Wolf and then decided to get cursed by breaking guest right. They were not pushed.

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The Freys were climbing fast until they decided to bet on the second Blackfyre rebellion (Walder's father), half committed to Robert's rebellion, bargained to join the Young Wolf and then decided to get cursed by breaking guest right. They were not pushed.

I dunno… six hundred years of being looked down on by their peers? That takes a psychological toll.

[Tucu]

41 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

I dunno… six hundred years of being looked down on by their peers? That takes a psychological toll.

F&B places the Freys as a well respected house. The insults in Walder's mind are the result of his actions after Robert's rebellion and possible the punishment Bloodraven gave his father after Whitehall (unconfirmed but hinted). They might not be treated as one of the great houses but they have recent marriages to ancient houses including Lannister, Royce, Darry, Blackwood, Crakehall...

Quote

This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure.