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The Wheel of Time: The Thread Reborn (Book Spoilers)


A True Kaniggit
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1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

RIP Grinwells.

Maybe that lesson will make Mat and Rand less likely to ask people for shelter as they travel. 

On the basis of the show so far, there will be no "previously met characters" traveling the WT to become AS in later seasons.

 

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13 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

My own interpretation of what Karene did is that Aes Sedai, depending on their strength, are limited to how many weaves they can do at the same time. She was already holding a shield weave on Logain, and then chose to save the other two with two weaves. She couldn't have done another so save herself, too. Which technically also shows Logain having weaved three different projectiles.

So, per RJ, the number of ways you can split weaves is not dependent on strength. In his notes (and in the Companion), he has a rough heirarchy of weave splitting, and it's something like:

Nynaeve and Egwene at an indeterminate relative rank per the notes, but in the books, Egwene certainly does do more (14), thank we see Nynaeve ever do. In book 9, Nynaeve does 5 when facing Talaan, and seems to be at the edge of her ability. The Companion says Aviendha can divide her flows more than Elayne, perhaps as much as Nynaeve., But all that clearly shows it isn't purely about strength. 

Moiraine pulls off four, in New Spring, and with great effort. Egwene, in Dragon Reborn, discovered she can do 3 without feeling any stress, and once she sees Rand do ten weaves at once, seems to push herself to improve to the point that she can fairly casually do fourteen. Till Sanderson God-modes Rand, we don't see Rand exceed 10, either. 

Kerene could simple be incapable of splitting her weaves too far. Or, the show folks just didn't think too deep about the scene, and just wanted a way to have her killed that showed her making a sacrifice.

 

10 hours ago, Scott_N said:

The Birgitte doll seems to get a lot of mentions, what is the significance? Have I missed something or is it foreshadowing?

Foreshadowing.

Spoiler

Birgitte is a Hero of the Horn, who helps Elayne and Nynaeve in the World of Dreams, and as a result, gets pushed into a weird kind of incarnation where she's "born" with the memories of her past lives intact. She becomes Elayne's Warder, and later the general of Andor's armies. 

 

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6 hours ago, Ran said:

Well, yes, but...

  Reveal hidden contents

How are they going to get him to no longer care about getting back to his sisters in the first place?

The most obvious way would be another fridging, I suppose.

 

Well, once they made the changes they did, that was always going to be a problem, but I trust they know the ripple effects and have answers. My comment was just kind of an OH moment. I thought it already was fine, but now I'm thinking of another reason it makes sense character wise.

Another way to write around it might be

Spoiler

Having Abel and Nattie get their shit together in future books in the face of adversity and Perrin being able to assure Mat everything is good. The Pattern was already doing some heavy lifting to keep Mat from returning to the Two Rivers at the only time in the books he really even thinks about it.

And I find all the talk of fridging interesting. The books use that trope pretty liberally already.

Edited by Gertrude
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I think its obvious

Spoiler

That the "return to the Two Rivers" storyline will address those points, especially if they're doing it in Season 3 (maybe even 2, though that'd be fast) rather than in Book 4. Mat's sisters will be okay, I suspect his parents will have a redemption arc in that season and that will get reported to Mat, since he's clearly not going to be separated from the others for anything as long as he was in the books.

 

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Yea, on re-watch Karene clearly saw that Logain was about to to break through with saidin missiles and protected Moiraine and Liandrin. Presumably, she didn't have anything left to protect herself.

As to Mat, I'd say that slaughter at the farm handily explains why he wouldn't want to return to Two Rivers - he knew that the Fade was really after the 2 of them and the family died because they sheltered under their roof. Returning to his sisters would only make them  a target.

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42 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

So, per RJ, the number of ways you can split weaves is not dependent on strength. In his notes (and in the Companion), he has a rough heirarchy of weave splitting, and it's something like:

Nynaeve and Egwene at an indeterminate relative rank per the notes, but in the books, Egwene certainly does do more (14), thank we see Nynaeve ever do. In book 9, Nynaeve does 5 when facing Talaan, and seems to be at the edge of her ability. The Companion says Aviendha can divide her flows more than Elayne, perhaps as much as Nynaeve., But all that clearly shows it isn't purely about strength. 

Moiraine pulls off four, in New Spring, and with great effort. Egwene, in Dragon Reborn, discovered she can do 3 without feeling any stress, and once she sees Rand do ten weaves at once, seems to push herself to improve to the point that she can fairly casually do fourteen. Till Sanderson God-modes Rand, we don't see Rand exceed 10, either. 

Kerene could simple be incapable of splitting her weaves too far. Or, the show folks just didn't think too deep about the scene, and just wanted a way to have her killed that showed her making a sacrifice.

 

Foreshadowing.

  Reveal hidden contentsBirgitte is a Hero of the Horn, who helps Elayne and Nynaeve in the World of Dreams, and as a result, gets pushed into a weird kind of incarnation where she's "born" with the memories of her past lives intact. She becomes Elayne's Warder, and later the general of Andor's armies. 

 

Nevermind. 
 

You addressed my comment later in the post. 

Edited by A True Kaniggit
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'Gentled' = gentle definition for 'gelded'; evidently performed by women who 'channel' and 'weave' upon men who have some 'channeling' and 'weaving' power, because if men have it, it is corrupted?

The healing and channeling look on screen very much like the descriptions of the use of 'laran' in the Marian Zimmer Bradley Darkover series.

Edited by Zorral
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1 hour ago, Arataniello said:

On the basis of the show so far, there will be no "previously met characters" traveling the WT to become AS in later seasons.

 

I have to ask for a legend to explain the abbreviations. 
 

WT. Is that WoT but shortened? 
 

AS: Adult Situation?

I feel like I should get these, but I currently do not. 
 

Edit: White Tower. Just got that one. 
 

Edit 2: Aes Sedai.  I solved the riddle. 
 

There was a missing ‘to’ in there. It confused me greatly. 

Edited by A True Kaniggit
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4 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I have to ask for a legend to explain the abbreviations. 
 

WT. Is that WoT but shortened? 
 

AS: Adult Situation?

I feel like I should get these, but I currently do not. 

White Tower

Aes Sedai

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50 minutes ago, Zorral said:

'Gentled' = gentle definition for 'gelded'; evidently performed by women who 'channel' and 'weave' upon men who have some 'channeling' and 'weaving' power, because if men have it, it is corrupted?

The healing and channeling look on screen very much like the descriptions of the use of 'laran' in the Marian Zimmer Bradley Darkover series.

Assuming they handle things the same in the show as the books... there are two halves to the power.  The male half was corrupted by the Dark One when the Dragon and his (all male) companions sealed him in his prison.

When men are cut off from the source it is called Gentling.

When women are cut off, they call it Stilling.

Edited by Rhom
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I will say I like the Birgitte doll. That's a very nice and organic way to introduce a name without an exposition dump, and then you can just drop references to build up a picture if you want.

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6 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Assuming they handle things the same in the show as the books... there are two halves to the power.  The male half was corrupted by the Dark One when the Dragon and his (all male) companions sealed him in his prison.

When men are cut off from the source it is called Gentling.

When women are cut off, they call it Stilling.

I was seconds out from answering my own question when you responded.

Thanks anywho. 

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Gelding remains a good translation for gentling though.  And stilling -- well, that is what all good women are supposed to be, still, not powerful or wielders of power.  Seems to fit in quite well with what friends have long criticized or noticed about the books in regard to its gender perspectives -- a certain anxiety of maleness?

Anyway, the books have no influence on what the screen is showing me.  So far, I'm liking the screen version quite a lot and am not having any trouble following the narrative about anything as the screen version is presenting it to me.  When the book versions are referred to, that is what confuses the storylines/narratives for me, as well as making things seems silly, when the screen presentations don't do that -- at least for this watcher.  But we are all seeing and hearing our own interpretation of events -- which means non bookers' narratives may diverge ever more so from the bookers'?  But both be valid?

Edited by Zorral
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Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? Wheel of Time is replete with powerful women in positions of authority. It was written by a perverted Vietnam veteran in the 90's, so it's full of weird personal kinks and sex metaphors, and a lot of comeuppance involving loss of authority for women who abuse their power. But the fact that you would suggest women in RJ's world are supposed to be meek and have no agency is fucking idiotic. You have no idea what the hell you're talking about and if the structuring of most of your posts is any indication I seriously doubt your 'friends' (ahem, YouTube) even know how to read, let alone read critically.

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Gentling does come from gelding: in the first outline, the Red Ajah (when they were more of a religious order) gelded men who could channel on the spot, to stop the channelling gene being passed down. RJ removed that in later drafts, possibly part of Tor's drive to make the series less grimdark.

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5 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Gentling does come from gelding: in the first outline, the Red Ajah (when they were more of a religious order) gelded men who could channel on the spot, to stop the channelling gene being passed down. RJ removed that in later drafts, possibly part of Tor's drive to make the series less grimdark.

Culling the ability out of humanity. Damn them. Even if they had cause. 
 

(Not exact, I know)

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The idea that the weaving of the channelers involes gestures and hands is something that's completely unsupported by the first three books. If Jordan later establishes it is one of many (pointless) retcons.

Spoiler

TEotW has Moiraine have a staff to help her focus, but she doesn't make any complicated gestures when attacking the Trollocs with fire and stuff during their flight. The same with her appearing as tall as a giant when leaving Baerlon.

It is the same with the girls in TGH - they touch the One Power with their mind and direct it with their thoughts. Weaving seems to have more to do with telling the One Power what to do with your thoughts than pointless hand-waving. There are no waved hands seen, either, during the big healing ritual of Mat in TDR which is described in pretty close detail.

In fact, during the first three books the only sign that somebody is using the One Power is the fact that they glow - and that's only seen by people who have the potential, too.

For the mundane person the impression the reader has - and must have - during the first three books is that they only realize the One Power is used when they see/experience its effects. They do not see that a channeler prepares to use the One Power or does a complicated weave.

Whatever is established later is a clumsy retcon/in contradiction to previously established facts.

That said - I'm really liking this show now. Episode 4 is clearly much more subtle and more intriguing than anything Jordan wrote in the first three books. As portrayed in the show, both the Darkfriends (the young woman from episode 3) as well as the Aes Sedai do make sense. In Jordan's books both organizations are poorly conceived and poorly portrayed, but in the show you quickly understand the motivations of a random Darkfriend, just as you get the different ideologies between the different Ajahs. Also, different folks trying to suck up to Nynaeve was basically light years better than all 'the plotting' Jordan wrote in his books so far.

Also, the show touching some of the plot points from the books - female Darkfriend attacking the boys, them being imprisoned and using the One Power inadvertently to get out, a Myrddraal attacking and seemingly killing Thom - while completely dropping Jordan's setting, scenes, and dialogues can only be an improvement.

In a faithful adaptation we would get bad dialogue and endless repetition. They would get to a village/town, enter the inn, then stupid behavior and clumsily conceived traps would follow. And on and on and on.

That the show drops all that stuff is a great advantage.

It also strikes me as if they plan to gradually do the worldbuilding stuff. We basically saw the taint on saidin/the One Power access of the men before we actually hear them talk about. We hear a lot about the Dragon and stuff, but Lews Therin's name wasn't mentioned so far - we are likely going to get to that (and perhaps even to the scene of his death) when Rand has his big confrontation with Ba'alzamon. Every episode adds more background detail and information to the world and the setting, and that actually works very well.

By the way: Do we think the female voice Logain heard when threatening the king was just genuine male madness talking or our first glimpse at Lanfear? The show cannot possibly portray her even remotely the way Jordan had her behave or this show is going to become a laughingstock of gigantic proportions (I'm talking about her behavior there, not her look).

Edited by Lord Varys
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28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the weaving of the channelers involes gestures and hands is something that's completely unsupported by the first three books. If Jordan later establishes it is one of many (pointless) retcons.

  Reveal hidden contents

TEotW has Moiraine have a staff to help her focus, but she doesn't make any complicated gestures when attacking the Trollocs with fire and stuff during their flight. The same with her appearing as tall as a giant when leaving Baerlon.

It is the same with the girls in TGH - they touch the One Power with their mind and direct it with their thoughts. Weaving seems to have more to do with telling the One Power what to do with your thoughts than pointless hand-waving. There are no waved hands seen, either, during the big healing ritual of Mat in TDR which is described in pretty close detail.

In fact, during the first three books the only sign that somebody is using the One Power is the fact that they glow - and that's only seen by people who have the potential, too.

For the mundane person the impression the reader has - and must have - during the first three books is that they only realize the One Power is used when they see/experience its effects. They do not see that a channeler prepares to use the One Power or does a complicated weave.

Whatever is established later is a clumsy retcon/in contradiction to previously established facts.

That said - I'm really liking this show now. Episode 4 is clearly much more subtle and more intriguing than anything Jordan wrote in the first three books. As portrayed in the show, both the Darkfriends (the young woman from episode 3) as well as the Aes Sedai do make sense. In Jordan's books both organizations are poorly conceived and poorly portrayed, but in the show you quickly understand the motivations of a random Darkfriend, just as you get the different ideologies between the different Ajahs. Also, different folks trying to suck up to Nynaeve was basically light years better than all 'the plotting' Jordan wrote in his books so far.

Also, the show touching some of the plot points from the books - female Darkfriend attacking the boys, them being imprisoned and using the One Power inadvertently to get out, a Myrddraal attacking and seemingly killing Thom - while completely dropping Jordan's setting, scenes, and dialogues can only be an improvement.

In a faithful adaptation we would get bad dialogue and endless repetition. They would get to a village/town, enter the inn, then stupid behavior and clumsily conceived traps would follow. And on and on and on.

That the show drops all that stuff is a great advantage.

It also strikes me as if they plan to gradually do the worldbuilding stuff. We basically saw the taint on saidin/the One Power access of the men before we actually hear them talk about. We hear a lot about the Dragon and stuff, but Lews Therin's name wasn't mentioned so far - we are likely going to get to that (and perhaps even to the scene of his death) when Rand has his big confrontation with Ba'alzamon. Every episode adds more background detail and information to the world and the setting, and that actually works very well.

By the way: Do we think the female voice Logain heard when threatening the king was just genuine male madness talking or our first glimpse at Lanfear? The show cannot possibly portray her even remotely the way Jordan had her behave or this show is going to become a laughingstock of gigantic proportions (I'm talking about her behavior there, not her look).

You clicked on the wrong thread dude. This is for the show. Your hate read is in Literature , above Entertainment. 
 

Edit: Your, not You’re :frown5:.

Edited by A True Kaniggit
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