Football: We'll be here until we get the draw we want!

[Wilbur]

9 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

...anyone who has watched the dark days of Italian football or Latin American club football will know the danger of allowing cynical game stoppages to flourish.  If you destroy the spectacle and neuter skill you will absolutely degrade the enjoyment of fans.

So, so true.  One of the reasons the English game has been so popular worldwide since the 1970s is that these cynical degradations were not the main feature of competition.

[Scott_N]

10 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

If COVID might starve us of new games to discuss, let me revisit a minor controversy from  There is a lot more time-wasting now starting from very early in matches, and teams are using every trick to get the game stopped.  It turns out that turning an opponent’s attack into a drop ball that you hoof back to their keeper is a really effective defense.  Just in recent games, Newcastle, Villa, Wolves and Everton all used this tactic heavily against Liverpool.  Wolves players were stopping for cramp throughout the second half — when did referees start stopping the game for so many non-contact “injuries” not to the head?  Every defensive header is an excuse to lay down holding your head — and it’s not like Liverpool have players to physically contest headers with CBs, so it’s mostly a minor bump with their own teammate.  

I would guess that City are seeing this too.  I don’t expect the two top teams to get much sympathy from opponents trying to wrangle any advantage, but anyone who has watched the dark days of Italian football or Latin American club football will know the danger of allowing cynical game stoppages to flourish.  If you destroy the spectacle and neuter skill you will absolutely degrade the enjoyment of fans.

Frankly, I have zero sympathy. Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd are given such huge advantages by the referees, in every game, it is just not an even playing field. And why is time wasting somehow worse than endlessly diving for penalties (and getting them!)? When these four clubs get a penalty they have somehow "won" that penalty by being "clever" or through "contact", no matter how tenous, or imaginary, the "contact".

If other clubs dare to do the same, they are immediately accused of cheating by the pundit machine. It's nonsense and just another result of the whole Sky shit and gloryhunting, global TV audiences (as opposed to the delightfully insulting term 'legacy' supporters) where the only thing that matters is making sure the brands at the top are successful. Referees are only human, it's impossible for them not to be affected by this relentless media focus and the resulting, unavoidable bias is played out on the field every weekend, for everyone to see.

[polishgenius]

17 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

 And it’s similar to DDG conceding an easy goal after throwing himself to the ground after Fred stood on his foot.

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? I've been kicked in the achilles area a few times, sometimes with studs. That shit fucking hurts. It's absolutely possible for it to hurt enough to send you down grabbing your ankle on reflex, and even if it doesn't, De Gea would not necessarily have been in a state to be thinking about where the ball is. 

It's like people have convinced themselves that the only injury that can possibly make a player go over is a long-lasting one that makes him go off. Surely anyone who grew up playing football knows that's not true. 

[Spockydog]

20 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? I've been kicked in the achilles area a few times, sometimes with studs. That shit fucking hurts. It's absolutely possible for it to hurt enough to send you down grabbing your ankle on reflex, and even if it doesn't, De Gea would not necessarily have been in a state to be thinking about where the ball is. 

It's like people have convinced themselves that the only injury that can possibly make a player go over is a long-lasting one that makes him go off. Surely anyone who grew up playing football knows that's not true. 

I've been playing football regularly for the best part of fifty years. My foot has been stood on plenty of times in the box. Stood on, not stamped on.

The natural reaction to getting your foot stamped on should probably involve a lot of hopping about on one foot whilst swearing like an angry sailor. Not collapsing like you've been shot, and then not moving for a couple of minutes. Did Fred even stamp on his goalkeeper's foot? No he didn't. He accidentally stood on it.

De Gea should be embarrassed. He let his team down. Badly.

ETA: Just looked at the incident again. Fred does catch him on the back of the achilles, not the foot. That's happened to me, and it is fucking sore.

But De Gea is still a fucking melt. 

 

[ljkeane]

50 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? I've been kicked in the achilles area a few times, sometimes with studs. That shit fucking hurts. It's absolutely possible for it to hurt enough to send you down grabbing your ankle on reflex, and even if it doesn't, De Gea would not necessarily have been in a state to be thinking about where the ball is.

Come on. I've played football plenty of times, I've spent most of my life playing rugby in the forwards were large men coming down from quite a height landing on your feet etc in a lineout isn't uncommon. Yeah, it probably hurt, it may well have hurt enough for him to collapse to the floor, although I'm dubious, but it hurt enough for him to have to lie prone on the floor unmoving as play went on? Fuck off it did.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

So half of the EPL games are off. Let's see which fixture (singular) can take place on boxing day.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, ljkeane said:

Come on. I've played football plenty of times, I've spent most of my life playing rugby in the forwards were large men coming down from quite a height landing on your feet etc in a lineout isn't uncommon. Yeah, it probably hurt, it may well have hurt enough for him to collapse to the floor, although I'm dubious, but it hurt enough for him to have to lie prone on the floor unmoving as play went on? Fuck off it did.

I cannot help but laugh at this conversation as a former American football athlete. Like rugby, it's a brutal sport where this shit happens to someone all the time and you just get up and keep it moving unless you may need to go to the hospital. 

Soccer players are soft, full stop, and the sport would be improved so much if players fought through contact rather than throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest touch, acting like they just suffered a season ending injury only to pop up a minute later. 

[Iskaral Pust]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I cannot help but laugh at this conversation as a former American football athlete. Like rugby, it's a brutal sport where this shit happens to someone all the time and you just get up and keep it moving unless you may need to go to the hospital. 

Soccer players are soft, full stop, and the sport would be improved so much if players fought through contact rather than throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest touch, acting like they just suffered a season ending injury only to pop up a minute later. 

The problem is that they’re cynical rather than soft.  The NFL would charge an injury time-out, which is a deterrent, but in soccer the feigned injury gets a tactical advantage if the opponent is dominating.  Of course the players aren’t actually hurt, but Newcastle are acting outraged because their player could possibly have been hurt and therefore must be given all care and consideration, even though everyone knows the player was just feigning.

[ljkeane]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I cannot help but laugh at this conversation as a former American football athlete. Like rugby, it's a brutal sport where this shit happens to someone all the time and you just get up and keep it moving unless you may need to go to the hospital. 

Soccer players are soft, full stop, and the sport would be improved so much if players fought through contact rather than throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest touch, acting like they just suffered a season ending injury only to pop up a minute later. 

I'm not really a fan of the 'whatever sport you happen to like' players are tougher than football players argument. They aren't doing it because they're soft, they're doing because they get rewarded for it and it's a professional sport so they're looking for every edge they can get. If NFL players were getting similar reward for collapsing in a heap they'd probably do it. Bloody hell, they throw up their arms asking for pass interference calls pretty much every time they don't make a catch as it is. 

[Iskaral Pust]

So far Liverpool vs Spurs is going ahead tomorrow, which is a huge advantage for Spurs.  They’ve just had three matches postponed for COVID and come back rested against a Liverpool team who have at least three players out with COVID (VVD, Fabinho, Jones) and now are rumored to have Henderson out too.  Liverpool already looked very leggy against Newcastle on Thursday.

Spurs didn’t specify which of their players tested positive, so it’s very possible they were missing only as many starters as Liverpool, but they got more favorable consideration.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

The problem is that they’re cynical rather than soft.  The NFL would charge an injury time-out, which is a deterrent, but in soccer the feigned injury gets a tactical advantage if the opponent is dominating.  Of course the players aren’t actually hurt, but Newcastle are acting outraged because their player could possibly have been hurt and therefore must be given all care and consideration, even though everyone knows the player was just feigning.

 

9 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I'm not really a fan of the 'whatever sport you happen to like' players are tougher than football players argument. They aren't doing it because they're soft, they're doing because they get rewarded for it and it's a professional sport so they're looking for every edge they can get. If NFL players were getting similar reward for collapsing in a heap they'd probably do it. Bloody hell, they throw up their arms asking for pass interference calls pretty much every time they don't make a catch as it is. 

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy though and it does indeed make them soft. The sport should reward those who don't fake being injured to draw a foul and should hand out quick yellows to over the top displays. And yes Lijkeane, they are soft for doing it. Have some fucking pride. Taking a dive to win a foul should NEVER be rewarded. 

[lacuna]

I absolutely agree that it's a complete embarrassment to everyone involved when players feign injuries, but it also sucks that it's almost necessary in order for refs to do something. Artful, technically skilled players have to protect themselves against the Roy Keanes of the world somehow. I'm also equally embarrassed by the "Who, me?" act followed by the dismissive arm gesture after a bad tackle too.

While we're on the subject, can we stop acting like the "taking one for the team" cynical fouls are in any way defensible? Neutral viewers want to see goals/big chances, and snuffing them out before they can materialize at the low cost of a yellow is a big detraction.

[Iskaral Pust]

At this point I think it’s worth saying that rugby seems to have the highest quality refereeing in pro sports.  I don’t know if football can borrow all of their positives because there aren’t as many stoppages for video checks and to decide there was insufficient advantage, but even the transparent communication and the tone with the players would help.

NFL refereeing is pretty high quality too, albeit more authoritarian.  It also depends on stoppages but the live judgment calls are usually accurate even in a chaotic melee.

[Corvinus85]

It's not about playing through the pain in a game, it's about playing through the pain in the moment. A soccer player gets hit really hard in his legs, ankle is twisted or the knee gets banged up, whatever, for at least a few seconds that player is now less effective, he's slower or he can't kick the ball as strongly, and things can change very quickly in soccer without much pause. Players think it's more beneficial to drop and flop than attempt to continue on to not give the other team the advantage of strength. 

[Spockydog]

36 minutes ago, lacuna said:

While we're on the subject, can we stop acting like the "taking one for the team" cynical fouls are in any way defensible? Neutral viewers want to see goals/big chances, and snuffing them out before they can materialize at the low cost of a yellow is a big detraction.

Aye. That type of thing should be an orange card, with the culprits chucked in the sin bin for 10 - 15 minutes. Then we'll see how long the likes of Guardiola and Arteta keep instructing their players to make professional fouls during turnovers.

 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Soccer players are soft, full stop

This just demonstrates a complete lack of awareness as to where most professional footballers come from. Most are working class kids, from tough, tough backgrounds. Many come from estates where some of the hardest men in the country are forged. These kids are not soft.

ETA: But, yeah, anyone who plays "soccer" is a weak-ass, lily-livered tosser. 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

It's not about playing through the pain in a game, it's about playing through the pain in the moment. A soccer player gets hit really hard in his legs, ankle is twisted or the knee gets banged up, whatever, for at least a few seconds that player is now less effective, he's slower or he can't kick the ball as strongly, and things can change very quickly in soccer without much pause. Players think it's more beneficial to drop and flop than attempt to continue on to not give the other team the advantage of strength. 

This is true of all sports. Why is it that soccer players are the most performative about it while also often times receiving minor contact? Do you think hockey or football players respect soccer players? If you want to blame it on the refs, correct the problem. Likewise if you think it's the format that allows this, fix it. 

 

[Consigliere]

I agree with @ljkeane. The players aren't playacting because they're soft; they do it to gain an advantage by and large. The rules and enforcement should be far stricter on this sort of thing but as it stands, it isn't. The potential benefits of making a meal out of tackles or trying to win soft penalties far outweights the chances of players being booked for simulation. Tactical fouling is another annoyance that a number of teams and certain players constantly get away with - peak Barcelona were the absolute worst offenders but most people only remember the pretty football and not the constant cynical fouling and diving.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

This just demonstrates a complete lack of awareness as to where most professional footballers come from. Most are working class kids, from tough, tough backgrounds. Many come from estates where some of the hardest men in the country are forged. These kids are not soft.

 

Lol. Want a lesson on Miami and LA, two cities I love and lived in for brief periods, who produce an absurd amount of professional talent, specifically from South Central and where I really loved, Liberty City?

[Rorshach]

So I forgot my password, switched jobs and since life was going by fast recovering said password was an ordeal even harder than Everton trying to find a point somewhere, anywhere.

That said ... Chelsea were just rather awful in front of goal last match. And Pickford was having one of his dominant games. And Jarrad Branthwaithe (of all people) popped up to slide in a free kick from Anthony Gordon (of all people). 

At least the lads ran around a lot. And Gordon was good. So there's that.