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Random Thoughts About ASOIAF


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The more I'm rereading the first book, the more minor plot holes I'm noticing. Like when Sansa meets Renly and Ser. Barristan, she says that Ser. Barristan is "the Lord Commander of King Roberts Kingsguard and counselor, as he was for King Aerys". I recall Ser. Barristan only ever being a regular Kingsguard member under King Aerys though and are normal members counselors? I know, this could easily be explained as Sansa not knowing all of Ser. Barristans history very well; she is only 11 in the first novel.

Another one I noticed is, Lord Commander Mormont, says "Ser. Alliser Thorne, is one of the few knights to join the watch, since he became lord commander". Which we know isn't true, because in the third book, we learn that Lord Commander Qorgyle, was in charge of the watch, when Jon was a boy. Did Mormont simply forget when he became lord commander, since he was close to being 70 in the first book?

Another one, is when Joffrey becomes king, he asks for Doran Martell and "all of his sons" to show up at court, but as far as I recall, he only has two sons and a daughter. I wonder if Arianne was suppose to be a boy in the original version of the story. I can accept that Joff and Cersei are too ignorant about Dornish law to know that Arianne is the heir to the kingdom, but I find it strange that they asked for "all his sons" and not "both his sons". Did they simply not know that Arianne was a woman?

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34 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For what it's worth, I have a 1997 copy of AGoT at my library, and she is listed in the appendix.

So why is the term, "all" used and not "both"? That seems strange to me. Are the Lannisters just idiots and think Doran has 3 sons, for some daft reason?

Edited by sifth
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On 6/27/2022 at 11:36 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

After Aemon’s death, Jaehaerys and Alysanne only had Baelon, Viserys, Daemon, Gael, and Rhaenys around. Then Jaehaerys alienated Rhaenys and he lost Gael and Alysanne. So by the time of his death, the only family Jaehaerys had left to comfort him was Viserys and his wife and daughter (I doubt Daemon was much of a comfort)

I know that you were trying to make a different point...but the fact that Jaehaerys only had Alysanne, Baelon, Viserys, Daemon, Gael and Rhaenys around was Jaehaerys' fault. 100%.

The way that they handled the situation with Viserra was horrendous. The situation with Saera could've been handled better...after a time, they should have invited her back to King's Landing. And what happened to Gael is a direct consequence of the piss-poor way that they handled the situations with Viserra and Serra.

 

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6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The way that they handled the situation with Viserra was horrendous. The situation with Saera could've been handled better...after a time, they should have invited her back to King's Landing. And what happened to Gael is a direct consequence of the piss-poor way that they handled the situations with Viserra and Serra.

 

The Viserra situation makes so little sense it borders on the comical. What exactly is the point of marrying a fifteen year old princess off to a sixty year old lord who already has several heirs? There is zero benifit in such a match since any children Viserra might have had would have gotten absolutely squat. The only explanation I can come up with for what Alysanne might have been thinking is that she was subconciously trying to punish Viserra for what her sister did. 

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55 minutes ago, Lady Misery said:

The Viserra situation makes so little sense it borders on the comical. What exactly is the point of marrying a fifteen year old princess off to a sixty year old lord who already has several heirs? There is zero benifit in such a match since any children Viserra might have had would have gotten absolutely squat. The only explanation I can come up with for what Alysanne might have been thinking is that she was subconciously trying to punish Viserra for what her sister did. 

you know, I think Jaehaerys just stopped caring about his kids after Alyssa because they were too many and Alyssane was the kind of parent who doesn't understand her kids and dismisses them as the disappointment they should get rid off (what Alyssane was trying to do with Vissera was almost certainly the same thing lady Baratheon did to the first Storm Maid to be rid of her in the wake of Daenaera's assassination attempt.) here Alyssane saw Vissera as a vain silly girl driven by her ambitions to become queen which is totally off when you consider that  Viserra was after Baelon when Aemon was pretty much alive and had a child of his own and how stressed and desperate she was when waiting in Baelon's room.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

you know, I think Jaehaerys just stopped caring about his kids after Alyssa because they were too many and Alyssane was the kind of parent who doesn't understand her kids and dismisses them as the disappointment they should get rid off (what Alyssane was trying to do with Vissera was almost certainly the same thing lady Baratheon did to the first Storm Maid to be rid of her in the wake of Daenaera's assassination attempt.) here Alyssane saw Vissera as a vain silly girl driven by her ambitions to become queen which is totally off when you consider that  Viserra was after Baelon when Aemon was pretty much alive and had a child of his own and how stressed and desperate she was when waiting in Baelon's room.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Misery said:

The Viserra situation makes so little sense it borders on the comical. What exactly is the point of marrying a fifteen year old princess off to a sixty year old lord who already has several heirs? There is zero benefit in such a match since any children Viserra might have had would have gotten absolutely squat. The only explanation I can come up with for what Alysanne might have been thinking is that she was subconciously trying to punish Viserra for what her sister did. 

Saera was difficult. Most parents would struggle to manage a child like Saera. And I can appreciate how the Saera experience made Alysanne and Jaehaerys overreact to Viserra's situation.

But the situations are not the same nor do they have the same personality.

I don't think that there's anything particularly scandalous about what Viserra was trying to do. Jaehaerys and Alysanne cannot be too upset or shocked by her behavior considering that they did the exact same thing when they were fifteen. Actually what they did was worse.

Their mother Queen Alyssa handled it the best way the situation could've been handled. People as wise as Jaehaerys and Alysanne should've noted that.

 

Viserra wants to be queen? Okay, that's understandable--it's the best possible position for a woman to have in that society. Outside of the wives of lords paramount or (more rarely) ladies who rule over massive fiefs in their own right, no other woman comes anywhere near the agency and power that a queen has. I imagine it would be very freeing. So, it's not only about Viserra's ambition, it's about her wanting the freedom and autonomy that her mother and all her other female relatives before her (i.e. Rhaena, Visenya, Rhaenys, etc.) had had.

However: Baelon doesn't want her and Aemon is already off-the-market.

Fine.

There are still options that can placate Viserra and still maintain connections within the realm:

  1. she can be married to a Lord Paramount or a Warden. The wardens and lords paramount essentially still rule their lands like a king would (especially the wardens). There isn't that much of a difference between being the Lady of Casterly Rock and being the Queen of the Rock.
  2. she can be one of the lesser lords that control a major city or trade hub. A Hightower, a Redwyne, a Grafton, a Caswell, a Velaryon, a Frey, a Mooton, a Cox, even a Manderly...as long as they don't have any a bunch of children from a previous marriage.
  3. she can be married to the current or future Prince of Dorne. This is a genius way of bringing Dorne into the realm...or at least ensuring two generations of peace at the least.
  4. she can be married off to a ruler of one of the Free Cities.
  5. she can be given her own lordship like Rhaena was. Let her have an abandoned or repossessed castle or holdfast...or better yet, build a Summerhall for her to rule over. If you really want to teach her a lesson in that, give her the tools, coin and manpower so that she can build it herself. Make it a hereditary lordship so that her sons can inherit that. 

With 1-3, the key here is that these lords cannot already have had children from previous marriages. 4 is honestly the best and wisest choice.

It is strange to me that a family as powerful as the Targaryens only had two seats for the vast majority of their dynasty. Westeros is the size of South America. If the British royal family has over five seats to their name on an island as small as Britain, then...???

Summerhall was a start but, by the time of Robert's Rebellion, the Targaryen family should've had five royal seats. Granted, it would've been a lot harder for the rebellion to dislodge the Targaryens but the Targaryens should've had more fiefs and holdcasts to command.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was reading about St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre yesterday, and I found it somewhat similar to the Red Wedding, even if it was more impulsive and less meticulously planned (i.e. slaughtering a rival faction that had arrived to celebrate a conciliatory wedding). 

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On 8/11/2022 at 6:48 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

My problem with Sansa reminding Sandor of his sister is that he never mentions her, to either Sansa or Arya (he does talk about his brother, father, and grandfather). Usually he brings up things that are on his mind, like how he talks about Sansa constantly around Arya. I think the attraction is based on how age is this weird abstract concept in ASOIAF, where the characters seem older than they are depending on the scene. I think him telling her about Gregor was just happenstance—the dam broke and she happened to be with him when it did—but that her reaction (trying to console him instead of being horrified) lit a spark. 

Yeah, the most generous interpretation of the dynamic is that Sandor wasn't necessarily drawn to Sansa; he was just around her by the happenstance of guarding her betrothed. Maybe he gave similar cynical rants to other idealistic children (like, say, Myrcella) while he was drunk; or maybe Sansa's idealism stood out. We'll probably never know. But it was Sansa's consolation of him in his moment of vulnerability that really made her stand out, and it was that act that started a new dynamic between them.

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I thought I was done with Game of Throne analysis video essays ... but the video below just made me laugh so much .he describes GoT as "a masterpiece and a complete disaster" which I fully agree with.

alas, @Ran thinks Rant and Rave thread is not needed anymore so I'm posting this here . by the way Ran I tagged you to say with HOTD we need Rant and Rave thread more than ever ! a lot of people may have revisited GoT before starting HOTD!

 

 

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8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I thought I was done with Game of Throne analysis video essays ... but the video below just made me laugh so much .he describes GoT as "a masterpiece and a complete disaster" which I fully agree with.

I'm on board with half of that take...the later half! This guy is way too kind on the early show.

I do agree that GoT got worse with every passing season, but there were some huge red flags even in Season 1 concerning D&D's judgment, and by Season 4 (apparently his favorite), some absolutely asinine decisions.

Aside from GRRM's dialogue, the show's main overall strengths were: 1) replicating the spectacle of the books' biggest moments and 2) utilizing on-screen chemistry between its cast members. Maybe that's what this person is responding so enthusiastically to in his praise for the early seasons. But in terms of creating compelling characterizations, plot dynamics, and themes (i.e., actual storytelling), the show was poor from the start.

 

Edited by Phylum of Alexandria
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I suspect that real creators of the wall were WW who made that for same reason than Children used Hammers of Water. Or their idea was to stop First Men going too far to north and original purpose of Night Watch was to be a border guards whose job was to make sure than humans stay out of land controlled by Others. Besides Night's King was last commander of NW who was still loyal to original purpose of NW. 

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On 8/28/2022 at 5:13 AM, EggBlue said:

I thought I was done with Game of Throne analysis video essays ... but the video below just made me laugh so much .he describes GoT as "a masterpiece and a complete disaster" which I fully agree with.

alas, @Ran thinks Rant and Rave thread is not needed anymore so I'm posting this here . by the way Ran I tagged you to say with HOTD we need Rant and Rave thread more than ever ! a lot of people may have revisited GoT before starting HOTD!

 

 

Perhaps we should start a Rant and Rave thread for HOTD then :cheers:

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On 8/25/2022 at 11:17 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was reading about St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre yesterday, and I found it somewhat similar to the Red Wedding, even if it was more impulsive and less meticulously planned (i.e. slaughtering a rival faction that had arrived to celebrate a conciliatory wedding). 

It was intended as a surgical strike against a handful of Protestant leaders.  And it turned into a bloodbath.

That’s possibly true of the Red Wedding.  

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