Jump to content

The Valonqar


LynnS
 Share

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Nice train of thought, especially the idea of the Valonqar being someone connected to Maggy the Frog which I think is in the right direction, but Marwyn isn’t my choice because of the sourleaf motif surrounding him. There are a few sourleaf chewing characters in the books including Masha Heddle, Yoren and Chett of the NW, the dwarf sparrow killed in place of Tyrion. All four are dead, subjected to violent deaths and common to these sourleaf people is that they were connected to important events that had nothing to do with them personally.

I'm impressed. That is some serious attention to detail. Hats off to you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Evolett said:

It is unclear if Raynald is younger than Robb’s queen, Jeyne. Raynald being a descendant of Maggy’s Essos origins also explains her use of the word Valonqar instead of “little brother.”

Oh! This is new!  I've never heard this before.  Thank you.

Yes, Marwyn's connection to MMD might be a problem for him when he meets Dany.  I'm also curious to know what Tyrion thinks of him should they cross paths.  Tyrion said he heard of a dwarf maester serving at the Fingers and it may be that Marwyn has been described that way by others.  It would certainly fit if he was caring for Littlefinger after Brandon cut him open.  Marwyn is on the periphery of a number of strange characters ibcluding Qyburn.  What will Moqorro think of him, I wonder?  Dany could be away from Meereen for a while. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

What will Moqorro think of him, I wonder?  Dany could be away from Meereen for a while. 

We don't know what the timeline will be, when who will arrive where etc., but another thought I have is Dany mistaking Marwyn for Moqorro, the black flame of Quaithe's warnings. Dany will hear about Quentyn, the sun's son, and his attempt to steal her dragons. If she takes Marwyn for the "black flame," perhaps because of his obsidian glass candle, things may not go well for him. 

Edited by Evolett
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Nice train of thought, especially the idea of the Valonqar being someone connected to Maggy the Frog which I think is in the right direction, but Marwyn isn’t my choice because of the sourleaf motif surrounding him. There are a few sourleaf chewing characters in the books including Masha Heddle, Yoren and Chett of the NW, the dwarf sparrow killed in place of Tyrion. All four are dead, subjected to violent deaths and common to these sourleaf people is that they were connected to important events that had nothing to do with them personally. Masha was hanged by the Lannisters because Tyrion was kidnapped in her inn. Yoren and most of his convoy of recruits are killed, probably because Yoren refused to hand over Gendry earlier during the journey. Chett had planned to kill LC Mormont but had nothing to do with the wight attack on the Fist of the First Men and the dwarf sparrow was killed in place of Tyrion. Marwyn might meet his end in similar circumstances. Ironically, the treacherous woman could be Dany herself who might regard him with suspicion because he was one of Mirri Maz Duur’s tutors. He had nothing to do with Drogo’s or Rhaego’s deaths but might end up bleeding for Mirri’s deeds.

My tip would be Raynald Westerling, Jeyne Westerling’s brother, both great grand children of Maggy the Frog. Raynald is currently missing. He was Robb’s standard bearer, close to him and seemed loyal to him. These are Catelyn’s thoughts:

Raynald was not aware of his mother Sybell’s treachery and accompanied Robb to the Twins. The young knight was loyal to Robb. He tried to release Grey Wind from the net the wolf was caught in and was hit by Frey crossbows. He escaped into the river but his body was never found; neither was he amongst captives. Presumably Raynald is out there somewhere. I see him as a possible candidate  because of his relationship to Maggy the Frog and because of the triangle of parallels between the Westerlings, Reynes of Castermere and Robb/the Red Wedding. These include the mass murder parallel, the similarity in names regarding the Reynes and the Westerlings, the Westerlings being awarded Castermere and even the parallel between Cersei’s walk of shame and that of Tytos Lannister's mistress.

So in a roundabout way both the “Reynes” and Robb have their revenge on the Lannisters when Raynard wraps his hands around Cersei’s neck. Another clue: Cersei visited Maggy the Frog together with another Jeyne. Jeyne Farman in this case. Could be Rollam of course, being a little brother who is compared to Bran but my bet is on Raynald. It is unclear if Raynald is younger than Robb’s queen, Jeyne. Raynald being a descendant of Maggy’s Essos origins also explains her use of the word Valonqar instead of “little brother.”

 

this is my favorite Valonqar theory yet :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to be quite boring and old fashioned about this one. I believe the Valonqar will be Jaime.

To begin with, I think we all agree that the Valonqar is the character who will kill Cersei.

We are told it is High Valyrian for little brother. We could make a case, based on the gender-fluidity of Valyrian words, that it could mean little sister too, but we know for certain it means little brother.

Tyrion is the first person that comes to mind for most readers. He's also who comes to mind for Cersei. She is convinced Tyrion is the Valonqar. It makes sense as they have a lot of hate for each other. Tyrion thinks about killing Cersei, and Cersei wants to kill Tyrion. He is her little brother, in that he is younger than her and small in stature. He has also already choked a woman to death using the chain of the Hand, so he has an MO. Basically, he's got red herring written all over him.

Jaime is also Cersei's little brother. He came into the world holding Cersei's foot. They shared a womb together. They are not just brother and sister, they are lovers. They each feel that they complete each other, so I feel it is only natural that they should complete each other's stories.

However, there has been a growing separation between them since Jaime began his road to redemption and Cersei continues headlong toward her inevitable doom, becoming a Mad Queen of sorts. Conflict between them is growing and we should expect that to come to a head somewhere down the line.

Jaime wanted to be Arthur Dayne, but somewhere along the way he became the Smiling Knight instead and now he is determined to get back on track to being a true knight. This is essentially his redemption.

Jaime's most notorious hour is when he opened Aerys's throat with his golden sword. This led to him being known as kingslayer, the man with shit for honor, but this is such a miscarriage of justice. Honor is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing. Jaime did the right thing when he killed Aerys to save the innocent from the wildfire plot. A true knight defends the innocent, we are told. It is the other members of the kingsguard who stood around and did nothing while Aerys raped Rhaella or burned Rickard, they are the dishonorable ones. Men like the White Bull and Barristan, who later unhappily reflects on if he should have done more in the last days of the Mad King's reign. For evil to prevail it only takes good men to do nothing, they say. The true meaning of honor has been lost in Westeros and the corrupt game of thrones. The truth is that Jaime passed the test of a true knight when he chose the lives of the innocent over the life of his king, but when he got judged for the act he became disillusioned and started to become the smiling knight.

Now Jaime's on the path back to be a true knight again, but before he gets there he will have to pass the test again. However, the stakes will be higher this time and the cost to Jaime will be greater. Jaime didn't like Aerys, but he loves Cersei. Cersei is the one who will take the place of Aerys.

Cersei is not someone who will compromise. When you play the game of thrones you win or you die, there is no middle ground. Nor will she be happy losing the game. Like Aerys in his later days, I suspect Cersei is the sort of person who will kick over the board before she'll lose the game, especially if she has already lost all she holds dear. If she is to be replaced by a younger and more beautiful queen, then let her be queen over charred bones and cooked meat, let her be queen of ashes, courtesy of another wildfire plot. Enter Jaime, who may even be Hand by then, and might even use the same chain Tyrion used to choke Shae.

Of course Jaime has to go at the same time, probably by Cersei's hand, so that they leave the world together, but he will go out a true knight.

Jaime and Cersei are twins, and Cersei thinks of them as two separate halves of one whole. They were born at the same time and they will die at the same time. They shared the same womb. We are meant to look at them not only as two people, but also as two sides of one person. One side the villain and the other the hero. I think that the point of this is that we are all capable of being both, but it comes down to the choices you make. Honor is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing.

Besides, Tyrion is a Targaryen, so Cersei only has one true brother, and that's why Jaime has to be the Valonqar.

 

 

Edited by three-eyed monkey
clean up
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Besides, Tyrion is a Targaryen, so Cersei only has one true brother, and that's why Jaime has to be the Valonqar.

I think Jaimie is the choice for most readers.   I do think one of the major beats of the story is that they will die together  There might be some forshadowing of that in the wierwood stump dream when he feels like he is being choked.  So under what circumstance? She will have lost everything she holds dear and drowning in her own tears. At the end of Dance, she is losing Jaimie.  Why would he go back to her?  Is it just vengeance and hate that drives Jaimie or will he be changed?

As for my guess about Marwyn,  I offer it as an alternative that is not a literal interpretation of valonqar/little brother.  But the use of valonqar in a different context.  I'm very interested to see how Marwyn's character arc shapes up in the next book. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The thing about prophecy is that you might think you know what it means until it hits you over the head.  That warning causes me to continually rethink what it is that I think I know, as we get new information.  Some things can be quite literal but most of it is amgibuous.  If its not literal, then what is it?

A good example of interpreting something literally is the answer MMD gives to Dany when she asks if she will ever see Drogo again:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

I'm not sure what Dany means when she asks when will he be as he was?  The last we saw of him, he was a vegetable. 

MMD's answer taken literally is never.  All these impossible events would have to happen before he returns and not before. So Dany understands and so does the reader.  It's never going to happen, so we miss the sun rising in the west in Tyrion's POV.  So here is the non-literal version:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

 

This is a blood moon eclipse, an ominous sign or portent if there ever was one.  From Dany's vantage point, she sees a blood bruised sky.  Tyrion asks: is that the sun?  How can it be the sun unless the east has moved (to the west)?  

So if the sun can indeed rise in the West; then what else is true?  Well, when the Dothraki Seas dry up in the autumn as they are doing at the end of Dance.  Mountains blowing in the wind like leaves? Or the Pyramids of Meereen burnt, crumbling, ashes blowing in the wind like leaves.  Another reference to when something will occur - in the autumn.

When your womb quickens again and you bear a living child.  At the end of Dance, Dany's menses seem to have returned or she suffered a miscarriage from starvation and eating poisob berries.  Certainly the possibilty to bear another child is in front of us.

As to when Dany will see Drogo as he was; my instincts tell me that this will be when Dany dies and her soul ascends and Drogo comes to collect her as he was when she last saw him:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now.

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.

Dany's question is when and MMD tells her when these signs will happen.  All at the end of ADWD.  I'd make another guess and say that she will not give birth to another child or see Drogo as he was until the end of her story.  It could be tied to the last Undying Prophecy of 3 fires, 3 mounts and 3 treasons. I think in the end she will sacrifice herself to save the world as a Nissa Nissa figure.  She will do this for her child, for life and for love. Her beloved is Drogo and that's when she will see him again.

 

Edited by LynnS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Because, and this is pure conjecture, she is Shiera Seastar and grew up speaking Valyrian.

Hmm so maybe like when Dany is trying to translate Iron Throne to Drogo & he thinks it's an iron chair? She used the word maybe to make sure the meaning was precise. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Jaimie is the choice for most readers.

I think Tyrion is the choice for most readers. Remember, there have been tens of millions of books sold and the online fandom is only a small fraction of that. Most readers are casual readers and do not partake in forums such as this one, and are more likely to be misled by a red herring.

Jaime might be the more popular choice in the online community, but that's because we re-read, catch details, explore symbolism and themes, deconstruct character-arcs, exchange ideas, and after all that Jaime makes most sense to most people.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I do think one of the major beats of the story is that they will die together  There might be some forshadowing of that in the wierwood stump dream when he feels like he is being choked.  So under what circumstance?

Well if you accept that they will die together, then either the Volanqar kills Cersei and Jaime both, or they kill each other and Jaime is the Volanqar. In terms of conflict of the human heart, I find the latter more compelling and I think there are hints that this will be the case.

Quote

The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons.

Quote

"and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk died with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound."

Which characters do you think the story of Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk has relevance to? Based on the fact they were twins, I don't find it unreasonable to suggest this foreshadows Jaime and Cersei.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

She will have lost everything she holds dear and drowning in her own tears. At the end of Dance, she is losing Jaimie.  Why would he go back to her?

Because he loves her. He's trying to redeem himself as a good person. He'll probably want to save her from herself, but once Cersei loses her children she will be beyond redemption, if she's not already there. By then the only thing she'll have left is Jaime, so giving him a mortal wound when he tries to stop her going Mad Queen completes Cersei's own self-destruction.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is it just vengeance and hate that drives Jaimie or will he be changed?

He's already changing.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is a blood moon eclipse, an ominous sign or portent if there ever was one.  From Dany's vantage point, she sees a blood bruised sky.  Tyrion asks: is that the sun?  How can it be the sun unless the east has moved (to the west)?  

You left out Moqorro's reply, which is important.

Quote

 

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

 

The sky is always red above Valyria, resembling a sunrise or sunset. When you approach Valyria from the east, as Dany shall, then the glow over Valyria will look like the sun rising in the west. When she passes Valyria and leaves it behind, the glow will look like the sun setting in the east. So her womb will not quicken again until she is west of Valyria. And when her womb quickens Drogo will return. In other words her next child will be Drogo returned, meaning another conqueror, as Rhaego would have been had he lived, because these are Mirri's words and that is how she saw Drogo and Rhaego.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree Jaime is on a redemption arc, but I think it’s a bit overblown even in his own mind. I can’t think of many decisions, Aerys and Bran included, he doesn’t do over again if given the chance. The first was saving a city over his honour, the second his sister/love/children over a child he barely knows. I think he’s looking at the world differently and maybe he’d change being with/believing in Cersei now, but the actual moments that define him, as they came to him, he does the same now. Maybe he doesn’t lie to Tyrion about Tasha? Not sure. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I agree Jaime is on a redemption arc, but I think it’s a bit overblown even in his own mind. I can’t think of many decisions, Aerys and Bran included, he doesn’t do over again if given the chance. The first was saving a city over his honour, the second his sister/love/children over a child he barely knows. I think he’s looking at the world differently and maybe he’d change being with/believing in Cersei now, but the actual moments that define him, as they came to him, he does the same now. Maybe he doesn’t lie to Tyrion about Tasha? Not sure. 

I agree, I think he is always going to push Bran & kill Aerys but his mind set seems to be changing. At one point he wouldn't have cared at all about an taken from him at sword point but he did try to keep it. He is seeing Cersei for what she is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The sky is always red above Valyria, resembling a sunrise or sunset. When you approach Valyria from the east, as Dany shall, then the glow over Valyria will look like the sun rising in the west.

Sure that might be the case but you don't have a blood moon eclipse every.  Moqorro might be downplaying as a sing or portent but Benerro certainly doesn't. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

GRRM is borrowing from our own superstitions:

Quote

It therefore comes as no surprise then that when a full moon is the color of blood, fearful lore arises. The King James Bible even sees it as a sign of the Apocalypse:

And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the Earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness. And the moon into blood,
 Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord – King James Bible, Joel 2:30

Lunar Lunacies and Blood Moons – Myth Crafts

It doesn't really matter that Dany doesn't see it or connect it with MMD's prophecy.  Tyrion notices it and how could he not?  He describes it as huge, monstrous as if it had swallwed the sun, the color of a blood bruise.  And Tyrion will not know about the prophecy either.  I think that it's for the reader to notice, especially coming from Tyrion's POV.

Edited by LynnS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

It doesn't really matter that Dany doesn't see it or connect it with MMD's prophecy.  Tyrion notices it and how could he not?  He describes it as huge, monstrous as if it had swallwed the sun, the color of a blood bruise.  And Tyrion will not know about the prophecy either.  I think that it's for the reader to notice, especially coming from Tyrion's POV.

I agree that GRRM is using apocalyptic symbolism, because we know as readers there is an apocalyptic event coming to Westeros. It's no different than the bleeding star been seen as a sign. But while he is using symbolism borrowed from the Bible or mythology or whatever, as readers we must connect the symbolism to the canon of this series.

So the monstrous and swollen moon that looks like it swallowed the sun represents Dany. Monstrous because she will wake the dragon, swollen because she will be pregnant again, swallowed the sun because she is the bride of fire and will be hailed as the chosen one of R'hllor by the Red Temple. I think it also means she will kill the father of her child, symbolized by the sun, who I feel will be the Greyjoy smiling sadly on the prow of a ship.

But in terms of Mirri's riddle about when she will see Drogo again, it is when her womb will quicken again, and that won't happen until she passes Valyria heading west, that's when the the sun will rise in the west and set in the east, or at least appear that way thanks to the fact the the sky is always red over Valyria.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So the monstrous and swollen moon that looks like it swallowed the sun represents Dany. Monstrous because she will wake the dragon, swollen because she will be pregnant again, swallowed the sun because she is the bride of fire and will be hailed as the chosen one of R'hllor by the Red Temple. I think it also means she will kill the father of her child, symbolized by the sun, who I feel will be the Greyjoy smiling sadly on the prow of a ship.

I think it's evocative and the blood bruised moon with it's twin on the sea, puts me in mind of Euron Blood Eye.  Tyrion is one of the most observant characters in the story; the one who sees behind the smoke and mirrors to the truth of the situation.  For the most part anyway.  I pay extra attention to the things that Tyrion says or sees.  So I think it's fitting that Tyrion would reveal the meaning of that line of MMD's prophecy without knowing it's portent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/21/2022 at 1:27 PM, LynnS said:

Same for Jaimie since he only really has one hand.  I suppose you could argue that he uses something besides his hands.  But the prophecy is pretty specific..  

Another tidbit that In Deep Geek pointed out... in Jaimie's weirwood stump dream, the last thing he experiences is a choking sensation and then he wakes.  There is perhaps some forshadowing in the books that Jaimie and Cersei will die together.  So who would have the ability to choke both of them?  Any ideas?

The only one I can think of that would have the ability to choke both Jaime and Cersie would be Gregor, aka Robert Strong, but he's the Elder of the Clegane brothers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/21/2022 at 6:27 PM, LynnS said:

Same for Jaimie since he only really has one hand.  I suppose you could argue that he uses something besides his hands.  But the prophecy is pretty specific..  

Yes, the one hand thing is meant to divert suspicion from Jaime. But the fact is one hand is all he needs.

Quote

Tyrion slid a hand under his father's chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into her neck. "For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm," he said. He gave cold hands another twist as the warm ones beat away his tears.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, the one hand thing is meant to divert suspicion from Jaime. But the fact is one hand is all he needs.

I'm not looking forward to the ending of these two.  For some reason.I'm reminded of the cunning device that was used to strangle Brandon Stark while he watched Rickard Stark burn to death.  Just when you think it can't get any worse ... it does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...