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The Valonqar


LynnS
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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know, if he is killing her for the greater good I think it would be a nice ending to his arc & would have brought him full circle back to where he began - killing Aerys for the greater good. 

Why would he strangle her for the greater good though? A sword would be much quicker and easier, especially for a guy with only one hand. Strangulation is an expression of extreme, personal anger.

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On 4/23/2022 at 11:41 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

Valonqar is Valyrian; therefore, the gender of the killer is not a good clue.

I accept that this is a valid point.

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"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.

Aemon is talking about tPtwP but it is in the same novel as the Valonqar prophecy, so I feel we are meant to connect these things. I've got no problem with the idea that we could be looking for a little sister instead of a little brother. That widens the mystery beyond Tyrion and Jaime, but it automatically points us in one direction.

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m leaning towards Arya.

If it's not Jaime, then I would lean towards Arya too. Cersei is the last name on her prayer. Arya has the motive to kill Cersei and is gaining the skills she needs to get her vengeance. In many ways she is as obvious as Tyrion if we account for the word gender clue. But is it really a clue or is it just a way of bringing other likely suspects into the fold to further cover Jaime? Broadening the field in what was essentially a two-horse race.

On 4/24/2022 at 12:14 PM, LynnS said:

My inclination is not to take it literally most of the time.  A sibling might be a bit too on the nose.

It's not just about the mystery though, we must also consider the impact from a story-telling point of view. Someone like Reynald Westerling would be a surprise for sure, but how does he killing Cersei make for better drama than Jaime, Tyrion or Arya?

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jaime killing Cersei would destroy his character. Killing your romantic partner is not a noble thing to do, no matter how villainous she is. As much as I love Jaime, he chose to be with Cersei and father her children. Killing her to “destroy his dark side” would be absolute bullshit.

I don't think it would destroy Jaime's character if she was beyond redemption and about to commit a vile crime against innocent people. A tragic hero, and a dead one in the process, but a hero nonetheless. He would have done the right thing, proving he is honorable, because honor is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing. He would prove that he is a true knight.

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Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing.

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"So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."

There's Jaime's final conflict, buried in the passage side by side. Love for Cersei or duty as a true knight to protect the realm? We should expect him to resolve this in the end.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She is bringing about her own demise, she is fulfilling the prophecy herself. 

I think this is a strong theme about prophecy, and I think in the end we will see that all prophecy is self-fulfilling in many respects. It comes down to the choices the characters make. She thinks that killing Tyrion will prevent the prophecy from coming true, but she needs to change her ways if she wants to prevent it coming true. She essentially needs to start her own redemption arc, like Jaime did. I don't think she will, because Jaime is the penitent half and Cersei is the impenitent half of the whole they make up

There's more bible symbolism involved here, with the good thief and the bad thief, which seems fitting to me given that in many ways Jaime and Cersei stole the throne when they seated their son under the pretense that he was Robert's son.

23 hours ago, Evolett said:

Following this series of symbols could imply someone with cold hands, someone like Coldhands the wight? The wighted little brother of another character?

It doesn't exclude the wighted little brother of Cersei, Jaime, having been recently dealt a mortal blow by her hands. If the Others are in the vicinity of King's Landing by the end, as I suspect they will be, then the Valonqar might have blue eyes by the time he kills her.

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Why would he strangle her for the greater good though? A sword would be much quicker and easier, especially for a guy with only one hand. Strangulation is an expression of extreme, personal anger.

I think it's a more powerful choice, more tragic, more intimate, flailing hands beating tears etc. Basically, more GRRM.

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27 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Why would he strangle her for the greater good though? A sword would be much quicker and easier, especially for a guy with only one hand. Strangulation is an expression of extreme, personal anger.

Well, who knows right? Maybe he doesn't have a sword atm. Maybe his hands or uh hand, is the only weapon available to him at the time. 

Indeed & because Jaime has the most love & passion for Cersei he has the potential to have the most extreme, personal anger for her as well. Strangulation is an intimate form of killing, not something that typically happens between strangers but between people quite familiar to each other. 

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17 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think this is a strong theme about prophecy, and I think in the end we will see that all prophecy is self-fulfilling in many respects. It comes down to the choices the characters make. She thinks that killing Tyrion will prevent the prophecy from coming true, but she needs to change her ways if she wants to prevent it coming true. She essentially needs to start her own redemption arc, like Jaime did. I don't think she will, because Jaime is the penitent half and Cersei is the impenitent half of the whole they make up

Exactly, I think so too. & it may be that her killing Tyrion or attempting to kill Tyrion will bring the wrath of the volanqar. So it wouldn't even have happened had she not killed him. 

Yeah, I don't think we will see a redemption arc for Cersei either. 

 

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On 4/22/2022 at 10:48 AM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Hmm so maybe like when Dany is trying to translate Iron Throne to Drogo & he thinks it's an iron chair? She used the word maybe to make sure the meaning was precise. 

Sorry, you lost me. How did Dany come into this?

Drogo is still learning the language, so I think that's all that's happening here.

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2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It's not just about the mystery though, we must also consider the impact from a story-telling point of view. Someone like Reynald Westerling would be a surprise for sure, but how does he killing Cersei make for better drama than Jaime, Tyrion or Arya?

True. Unless Jeyne or Raynald Westerling do something cosmic beforehand and/or she is aware that he is a descendant of Maggy the Frog, the other candidates definitely provide for better drama. 

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed or better yet that it is Tyrion because Cersei made it so. She is bringing about her own demise, she is fulfilling the prophecy herself. 

I tend to agree with this.  Cersei's actions as a result of the prophecy need to bring about its fulfillment.  Tyrion is the best candidate for that.  

I also don't like the other suspects for it.  I don't see it being Jaime; in fact I'm not sure he survives Stoneheart.  And I can't see Arya being physically able to throttle Cersei, even assuming she got the chance, which she wouldn't.  Cersei's not that badly protected.  Plus it would damage her story as much as Jaime killing her would damage his.

Cersei bringing about the prophecy's fulfillment is the main reason I like Margaery for the YMBQ.  Not because she is the best candidate, but because Cersei's actions will cause Margaery to react in a way that brings it about. 

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16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jaime killing Cersei would destroy his character. Killing your romantic partner is not a noble thing to do, no matter how villainous she is. As much as I love Jaime, he chose to be with Cersei and father her children. Killing her to “destroy his dark side” would be absolute bullshit.

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Furthermore, if Jon does kill Dany in the books, I don’t think George would have something that momentous happen twice in the same book. In the show at least, Jaime chose love and Jon chose duty.

 

I lean towards Jaime but I often think about this, especially in light of what's in the spoiler box.

In any case, I think the valonqar has to be someone narratively connected to Cersei so I like the ideia of Arya too.

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4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It's not just about the mystery though, we must also consider the impact from a story-telling point of view. Someone like Reynald Westerling would be a surprise for sure, but how does he killing Cersei make for better drama than Jaime, Tyrion or Arya?

Exactly.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, you lost me. How did Dany come into this?

Drogo is still learning the language, so I think that's all that's happening here.

Sorry, I was just making a comparison. I'm just saying that maybe Maggy used the word Valonqar instead of little brother because there is not a direct translation, similar to when Dany was trying to translate to Drogo & he thought she was saying it was an Iron chair, she said it's not a chair it's a ... she couldn't find a Dothraki word to fit so she said throne. 

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I tend to agree with this.  Cersei's actions as a result of the prophecy need to bring about its fulfillment.  Tyrion is the best candidate for that.  

I also don't like the other suspects for it.  I don't see it being Jaime; in fact I'm not sure he survives Stoneheart.  And I can't see Arya being physically able to throttle Cersei, even assuming she got the chance, which she wouldn't.  Cersei's not that badly protected.  Plus it would damage her story as much as Jaime killing her would damage his.

Cersei bringing about the prophecy's fulfillment is the main reason I like Margaery for the YMBQ.  Not because she is the best candidate, but because Cersei's actions will cause Margaery to react in a way that brings it about. 

:agree:

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(this post became a LOT longer than I initially intended. the first part is about why Jaimie isn't valanqor and why Tommen and Myrcella will outlive Cersei. skip ahead if you'd like)

after all the discussions , I still think Jaimie and Tyrion are the safest bets as the Valonqer .

that said , I'd like to go in another direction and consider other candidates.

first of all , I agree that killing by strangling is an extreme form of killing, suggesting closeness between victim and killer . with Cersei's brothers aside, there are Tommen and Myrcella. there has already been speculations about Myrcella being the younger queen , but can either of Cersei's remaining children be the Valonqer ? 

let's take another look at Maggie's words:

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Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear...

Six-and-ten for him, and three for you .Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

at first glance , it is all pretty straight forward:

1. you have three kids 2. they all die crowned 3. you grieve 4. Valonqer kills you 

but let's assume this implication doesn't mean that much and that Cersei's grief might not be over her kids' deaths , rather about what she held dear  . 

so, why I'm assuming Cersei's not drowning in her tears over her children's deaths? well , to answer that I have to talk about Jaimie's fate (the top candidate as Valanqor) as well, after all they are a family:) .

let's take a look at the first part of Jaimie's dream :

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“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair. “Sister, why has Father brought us here?” “Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go. “Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.” “I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said

here Jaimie goes down in Casterly Rock (or WInterfell) crypts into the darkness and doom . it is his darkness . he sees all his dead ancestors and alongside them he sees Cersei , Tywin and Joffrey who are all still alive at this point in the story. but no sign of Tommen or Myrcella . which in my opinion could mean that Cersei , Joff and Tywin die before Myrcella and Tommen. 

then :

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[....]As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps...

Jaimie complains that he needs a sword in which Tywin replies he has given him a sword . then ,he sees his own sword burning with light and he also gives Brienne a twin of his sword (which we know are Oath Keeper and Widow's Weil ) .

Jaimie wonders about what lives in the darkness , he is worried . the dream keeps telling us Jaimie is in the darkness , where he should be wary of what lives there , where there is only doom . which means it's the Long Night and Jaimie must be worried about the Others.

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[....]“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.” 
 “Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps. 

Cersei ( or who causes the dream aka. Bran) informs Jaimie that he lives as long as the sword burns . Cersei is already leaving with the dead Lannisters , leaving Jaimie in the darkness that is his place and Brienne's , not hers . she dies and leaves Jaimie alone to fight the things in the darkness and Jaimie is alive for as long as his sword burns. he doesn't kill her, nor will they leave the world together . 

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[....] “Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, 
turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, 
Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?” 
 “Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.”

[...]  Something was moving through the darkness, he 
could not quite make it out...

 “A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.” 
 “Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. [....]
 Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.” 
 He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled 
back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not 
need to look upon their faces to know them.
 Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.
[...]
 The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s 
burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

 “No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!” 

again , Jaimie and Brienne ask what lives in the darkness . and there they come as Bran shows Jaimie : the pale ghosts armored all in mist and snow . they are the Others . the kingsgaurd have many Others imagery throughout the books. and here , Jaimie projects his own ghosts and his own guilt in the forms attacking him. and finally his sword goes dark , but not Brienne's , and the Others attack him . this is Jaimie's death . 

so , in summary , Jaimie's dream gives us a nice little death sequence :

Tywin and Joff go to all the dead Lannisters . Cersei goes to them (dies) when Jaimie's already deep in the darkness and the weights are already out there in the dark and especially in the water . so, Cersei dies in winter, before Jaimie , Tommen or Myrcella . but Jaimie still longs for her , begs her to stay ,so, probably he is not the one to kill her . here's the thing about Jaimie , he has let go of Cersei but would he goes on living his life if he's the one to kill her? 

as for Jaimie , he dies fighting the Others alongside Brienne (who outlives him) , probably somewhere near water (Trident?), since there is a lot of attention to the thing in the water .

back to Cersei and Maggie's prophecy , now we know the sequence of events implied by the prophecy is either wrong or misunderstood. 

Gold shall be their crowns and gold shall be their shrouds: it simply means all Cersei's children will die as kings/queen . Joff died a king . Tommen is already crowned so whenever he dies , he had already been crowned. which leaves Myrcella . some speculate that Arianne's plot is Myrcella's crowning . however , I believe one must actually wear a crown to be queen , even if it's for a week . which means either Tommen dies and Lannister supporters crown Myrcella or that she marries a king which doesn't seem all that possible if that king is Aegon but would be pretty interesting if it's Bran . but it doesn't matter really , the point is we should look forward to Myrcella's coronation , how ever it might happen . 

 queen you shall be until comes another who takes everything you hold dear  this part ,too, has been subject of many debates . what is important here is to know what Cersei holds dear. is it Jaimie? her looks? her children? her power?  

I think it's her power , position and her appearance . so , someone comes who will rank above Cersei , becomes more influential and by being more beautiful smashes Cersei's self confidence . Sansa has not done that (but she might . although, since I think she'll go north , I don't count on it ) and Margery has failed to be more influential . considering Daenerys might not come to Kingslanding in Winds and I suspect Cersei will die in that book , it is not her . Myecella is still 11 and while being a mini-Cersei in looks ( earless or not ) makes her a good "more beautiful queen" , I doubt it's her .  which leaves Arianne who will come to Kingslanding stealing all the attention , influences the court and being born a princess instead of a lady , outranks Cersei. she ,too, becomes queen for a time till once more comes another, whoever that might be (Daenerys?) . 

when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you:  whether in the new court or in the run , without Jaimie, and probably estranged from her children , she'd be alone , powerless and helpless . so , she'll grieve over what she's lost . and then the valonqar will murder her , who I think is one of her children .

so, what would make Tommen or Myrcella be estranged from their mother , let alone kill her? let's see... there could certainly be a couple of reasons : first of all , they might be pissed to know the rumors about their parentage are true . that not only makes them bastards , abominations and usurpers , but it also makes them killing target for half the realm . then there's the fact that she has gone after both Margery and Trystane who her children love . should anything happen to them , surely , Tommen and Myrcella would at least be pretty upset . on top of that ,we know that Myrcella likes Arianne quite enough which will definitely not make Cersei happy . delving into madness , who knows what Cersei will do next, or will try to do? she quite likes burning , doesn't she? I propose , Cersei will do a lot of horrible things in Winds of Winter which disgusts her children. she might do something that make one of her kids kill her out of hate . BUT the valanqor kills Cersei when she is drowned in tears , when she is lost and killing her would end her pain . perhaps simultaneous with stopping her from doing something Aerys level .

 

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48 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

so, what would make Tommen or Myrcella be estranged from their mother , let alone kill her? 

Just in terms of timing, Tommen seems more likely. He loves the Tyrells and Cersei has already started her own personal war against them. She even sees it as a fight over Tommen. It wouldn't take much for him to get caught in the middle of what's already happening in King's Landing and she's already right there with him. A lot of events would need to happen before Myrcella would be in the same spot as Tommen.

Lovely analysis, by the way. 

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

queen you shall be until comes another who takes everything you hold dear  this part ,too, has been subject of many debates . what is important here is to know what Cersei holds dear. is it Jaimie? her looks? her children? her power?  

I think it's her power , position and her appearance . so , someone comes who will rank above Cersei , becomes more influential and by being more beautiful smashes Cersei's self confidence .

I agree that power is everything Cersei holds dear. When you play the game of thrones you win or you die. That's all in.

Queen she shall be. Right now she is queen regent, well, before her imprisonment. Tommen is her son and he is king, and his wife will be queen. However, with Aegon approaching then Tommen's reign is drawing to a close. I doubt he or Myrcella will survive, hence the gold funeral shrouds. So how could Cersei become queen? The simplest answer is by marrying Aegon, which would mean she is queen until Aegon dies, keeping her in place up until the end game. That's right, I'm saying Aegon will have a thing for older women, lost mother issues maybe, and we know Cersei likes the Targ look. I expect her to cling to power until late in the game.

Aegon's death is probably going to come at the hands of Dany, as he is the mummer's dragon. When that happens a lot of people are going to expect Dany to become the younger and more beautiful queen. However, if Dany sacrifices the throne to save the kingdom, she will not be the one who takes power, which is everything Cersei holds dear. I think that will be Sansa, the Queen of Spring.

6 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

I lean towards Jaime but I often think about this, especially in light of what's in the spoiler box.

In relation to @The Bard of Banefort's point in the spoiler box.

There are similarities between Jon and Jaime in that they will have to do a bad thing that will cost them greatly in order to achieve a good outcome for the people they are sworn to defend, but I think there is a difference between them too. Jon will have to sacrifice his honor to keep his oath. Jaime will have to sacrifice his love to keep his oath.

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3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Jaimie complains that he needs a sword in which Tywin replies he has given him a sword . then ,he sees his own sword burning with light and he also gives Brienne a twin of his sword (which we know are Oath Keeper and Widow's Weil ) .

So you see Jaime ending up with Widow's Wail? Do we know where that sword is right now? It's smaller than Oathkeeper so it would be easier to wield one-handed. Oathkeeper is a serious name and is clearly intended to have significance. I don't know if we're supposed to take "Widow's Wail" seriously or not. If we are then Jaime using it to fight the Others doesn't seem like a fulfilment of the name.

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5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 queen you shall be until comes another who takes everything you hold dear  this part ,too, has been subject of many debates . what is important here is to know what Cersei holds dear. is it Jaimie? her looks? her children? her power?

I agree with you that it probably isn't her children. For Catelyn, clearly her children are everything she holds dear. I've never felt that way about Cersei. If anything, Cersei really only sees her children as an extension of herself.

The full quote from Maggy the Frog is "Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear." The obvious reading is another queen is coming to take her throne but, as with all good prophesies, that isn't necessarily what is being said.

I've always been intrigued by the idea that the "younger and more beautiful" one is Brienne. That would certainly fit the classical mode of a prophesy that the characters completely misunderstand. In this case, it would be Cersei assuming beauty refers to just physical good looks and that "another" refers to another queen.

When Catelyn comes to Renly's camp, she witnesses the blue knight defeating Loras. This scene is our introduction to Brienne. Before we know her name, before we even know that the blue knight is a woman, the crowd is shouting "A Beauty! A Beauty!" That is how Brienne is introduced to us.

Cersei, of course, is already losing Jaime to Brienne and she doesn't have the slightest clue that it is happening. It would certainly fit the traditional pattern of prophesies if Cersei spends all her time trying to identify the younger and more beautiful potential queen, never once thinking the prophesy could be referring to someone like Brienne.

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9 hours ago, Groo said:

So you see Jaime ending up with Widow's Wail? Do we know where that sword is right now? It's smaller than Oathkeeper so it would be easier to wield one-handed. Oathkeeper is a serious name and is clearly intended to have significance. I don't know if we're supposed to take "Widow's Wail" seriously or not. If we are then Jaime using it to fight the Others doesn't seem like a fulfilment of the name.

according to the wiki: "Upon Joffrey's death, Widow's Wail passes to his younger brother, Tommen I, and is held at the Red Keep until the boy king is old enough to wield it

so , it's in the red keep . I can't really say I have anything specific other than the dream, to make me believe Jaimie will somehow end up with Widow's Wail, Valonqer or not. Tywin says he has already given Jaimie a sword and he gives his sword to Brienne . then he looks and sees his own sword as Brienne's twin sword burning in light . I guess technically you could say Jaimie can possess any other dragon steel sword to fight the Others but the fact that Ice split into two swords and Jaimie sees himself with Brienne is telling. 

as for the name , no clue! if I had to guess , I'd say since Cat plays a huge role in both Brienne and Jaimie 's stories , the names could both refer to her . I mean , how ever Jaimie might be get his hand on Widow's wail , he should first encounter Stoneheart . maybe ,that's somehow related ...

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I'd say since Cat plays a huge role in both Brienne and Jaimie 's stories , the names could both refer to her

That would be some amazing irony. Joffrey sounded exactly like an immature adolescent trying to have a macho sounding sword when he chose Widow's Wail. I'm now imagining Widow's Wail as the instrument of Lady Stoneheart's grief and vengeance, a terrifying wail.

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15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

let's take a look at the first part of Jaimie's dream

Interesting analysis!  A few things struck me about this dream.

Tywin and Joffrey are included among the dead ancestors (along with Cersei) and they are not dead yet.  Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella are missing from this dream.  Does this mean they will outlive Jaimie and Cersei?

Tywin says he gave Jaimie a sword but that is yet to happen if we are talking about the swords made from Ice.

Also when Maggie tells Cersei that she will have 3 children and gold will be their crowns; she my have been talking specifically about hair colour.  Cersei doesn't know at this point that she will have Jaimie's children.  I have seen 'crown' used to describe hair colour elsewhere in the books, but I can't remember which POV or book. 

I heard some speculation that Jaimie is being taken to task in that dream for not keeping his oaths.  Upon waking he seems to have made the decision to keep his oaths from now on.  Even given the chance to leave the LG; he declines Tywin's offer and keeps his oath.  It was suggested that when Jaimie breaks his oaths; his light will go out and he will die.

Edited by LynnS
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33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Also when Maggie tells Cersei that she will have 3 children and gold will be their crowns; she my have been talking specifically about hair colour.  Cersei doesn't know at this point that she will have Jaimie's children.  I have seen 'crown' used to describe hair colour elsewhere in the books, but I can't remember which POV or book. 

nice catch! I've never considered that . it'll be hilarious if crown here is referring to golden hair while the fandom's been theorizing about gold crowns :D  

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I heard some speculation that Jaimie is being taken to task in that dream for not keeping his oaths.  Upon waking he seems to have made the decision to keep his oaths from now on.  Even given the chance to leave the LG; he declines Tywin's offer and keeps his oath.  It was suggested that when Jaimie breaks his oaths; his light will go out and he will die.

this fits nicely with the fact that Brienne's sword , Oath Keeper , doesn't lose its light. however , it'll ruin Jaimie's arc in my opinion.

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