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1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

D&D were also clear they wanted to wind down from three sets to one and decrease the number of characters and plots.

Hence their gleeful excision of the majority of Martells, Griff, Victarion, Damphair, and so on.

Considering what a mess season 5 was in terms of pacing, that was probably the smart move. They should have done it earlier and cut Dorne entirely, the show would have been better for it. 

Calling it a "gleeful" excision really speaks to the irrational hatred this fandom has for Benioff and Weiss. Like they're sitting in a hotel room cackling and jerking each other off while crossing out plot lines on a white board with a big red marker and watching this forum melt down in real time. 

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Just now, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I don't think there's a fixed number. But you'd be surprised how many people have the same lesson shoved in their face again and again and never learn it. Although it's different for Sansa since all of this is happening against her will. 

It wasn’t against her will.  LF had to persuade her to go to Winterfell.  He didn’t force her.  And, Martin himself said it was out of character for LF to have done this, because he’s obsessed with her.

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Just now, SeanF said:

It wasn’t against her will.  LF had to persuade her to go to Winterfell.  He didn’t force her.  And, Martin himself said it was out of character for LF to have done this, because he’s obsessed with her.

I mean, you generally don't have to persuade someone to do something if they're initially willing to do it. 

It was probably out of character for Book Littlefinger to do it, but Show Littlefinger always struck me as more obsessed with his own advancement than with Sansa/Catelyn, so it didn't feel out of character to me. 

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2 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

Considering what a mess season 5 was in terms of pacing, that was probably the smart move. They should have done it earlier and cut Dorne entirely, the show would have been better for it. 

Calling it a "gleeful" excision really speaks to the irrational hatred this fandom has for Benioff and Weiss. Like they're sitting in a hotel room cackling and jerking each other off while crossing out plot lines on a white board with a big red marker and watching this forum melt down in real time. 

I think this fandom understands Benioff & Weiss pretty well.  

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5 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I don't think there's a fixed number. But you'd be surprised how many people have the same lesson shoved in their face again and again and never learn it. Although it's different for Sansa since all of this is happening against her will. 

How do you type so fast?

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

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On 8/3/2022 at 11:11 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

Actually, I think it'd be perfectly martin-esque if he said, "And as soon as Sauron was defeated, the elves and humans and dwarves immediately fell back into warring against one another."

Because that's a very cynical A Song of Ice and Fire sentiment.

Humanity learns NOTHING from the experience and immediately goes to fighting for the Iron Throne.

Can't help but agree. Look at what happens with the alliance between the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, and Baratheons in the backstory; it started fracturing when the Lannisters sacked King's Landing and Ned broke with Robert for his callousness over the dead Targaryen kids. Then Littlefinger gnaws at a weak link (Lysa) and it falls like a house of cards...

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4 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

Considering what a mess season 5 was in terms of pacing, that was probably the smart move. They should have done it earlier and cut Dorne entirely, the show would have been better for it. 

Calling it a "gleeful" excision really speaks to the irrational hatred this fandom has for Benioff and Weiss. Like they're sitting in a hotel room cackling and jerking each other off while crossing out plot lines on a white board with a big red marker and watching this forum melt down in real time. 

Personally, I think the show fans hate D&D a lot more than book fans do. Book fans complain about and make fun of them. Show fans act like D&D murdered their families and should be arrested for their crimes. 

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean he can absolutely say no and is obligated given she's the Heir Apparent in a misogynist society and the history of Westeros makes it clear that sleeping with a Royal Princess out of wedlock is punishable by gelding, the Night's Watch. or death let alone that he's a Kingsguardsman.

And the book never makes it clear that anything happens with them.

Indeed, Glydan makes it clear that he was horrified at a sexually aggressive woman no matter what his feelings towards her were.

So him sleeping with her is a big change.

I don't think it is a change since I always expected that they had an actual affair. The nature of a secret affair is that a court jester with a big mouth and gossip-loving septon are not necessarily getting to the bottom of the truth there.

The thing is - if you are Criston Cole, if you rose from the bottom to the position of a Kingsguard, and if you are actually in love with this woman and she knows it ... then it would be very hard indeed to reject her. For Rhaenyra this can be, might be nothing at all ... but for Criston Cole it can certainly be the world.

And of course she has the upper hand in all this. A word of Rhaenyra's can destroy Criston Cole. She could accuse him of improper behavior towards herself or other women, she could accuse him of attempted rape, or some other crime. Hell, she could just tell her father she didn't like him anymore, and he might have to protect the king's stables for the rest of his life. And this is also part of the reason why the Mushroom story makes literally no sense in the book ... because a Rhaenyra rejected two times by Criston Cole could and would have easily destroyed this man. He would have never become Lord Commander of the Kingsguard if he had rejected Rhaenyra in 111 AC, and once they had their final falling-out Rhaenyra would have destroyed him completely.

I'm not saying the show will do something like that, I just think that such a dynamic might be there in this scene. If they have Aegon have his ways with the serving women, then Rhaenyra certainly also can have her way with her bodyguard. A Kingsguard is, in the end, just a glorified bodyguard. Another type of servant.

Completely other thing:

Hell, if they go with the whole prophecy and magic angle, they could go to the Isle of Faces after the Harrenhal battle if Daemon is actually going to survive the whole thing. I've put forth the idea from the beginning that if we are ever going to see the Green Men in the books - and George has promised that - we might get a kind of Bloodraven twist there, meaning the main Green Man we are going to meet is going to be a guy the reader will recognize as a historical figure. Daemon's body was never found, and he plunged into the Gods Eye, meaning he could have swum to the Isle of Faces, joining the Green Men, and still be around as a very old semi-immortal guy wearing an antler helmet. Dany and Jon could actually meet one of their direct ancestors should they ever visit the place.

(In a sense I think the kind of plotline I'm suggesting there is also a description of Bloodraven's life - the guy started as boy drawn into politics and war, being motivated in no small part by passion and ambition and love and a lust for power ... but then all that kind of died down, he went to the Wall, and eventually shouldered the burden of all mankind. I guess that is perhaps the best argument as to why Daemon should not have a similar story ... but it would still make sense to have a kind of important face be the Green Men our guys eventually meet with, rather than having to invent and introduce a completely new character there. Not to mention that in context the Green Men are going to play a different role in the grand scheme of things than the last greenseer beyond the Wall ... although I sure as hell have not that slightest idea what the purpose and eventual role of the Green Men will be.)

The show could build up something like that, having Daemon start as a cynic not believing in prophecy and magic (aside from the dragons he can see and touch, of course) developing into a man who might, eventually, have a deeper understanding of things, possibly having a prophetic dream of his own. It could be a great arc for him, especially since he is apparently deeply hurt by the fact that neither his father nor his brother nor Rhaenyra trusted him with the truth about the Conqueror's dream and 'the Targaryen mission'.

Not to mention that dream and prophecy could really help to explain why he abandons Nettles and effectively throws away his life at Harrenhal. This is a completely nonsensical decision - politically killing Vhagar/Aemond that way makes no sense. Daemon's death also weakens Rhaenyra's cause and forces young Aegon and his half-sisters to grow up without a father (and Viserys, too, who was presumed dead). Daemon helps to destroy everything he has fought for over a year - and as far as we know he coveted power and the Iron Throne for his entire life. He abandons his family to an uncertain future, which House Targaryen itself could easily gown down the toilet.

Even more problematic is the personal level of that decision. Regardless whether Nettles was his lover or daughter - she was very important to him and she had a dragon of her own. They could have tried to lure Aemond into a trap at Harrenhal. They could have run away together. They could have returned to KL together to knock some sense into Rhaenyra and deal with Mysaria's vile intrigues. They could have even tried to join the Greens like Lord Mooton later did. There were dozens of options that made more sense than separation, despair, and death.

Of course, a Daemon ending up with the completely mysterious Green Men would be a gigantic question mark in the show and clearly lead nowhere in GoT. But there are no Velaryons or Hightowers in GoT, either, so who cares? Also no promised prince, no Aegon, and no dragon with three heads.

It could be a very nice allusion to ADoS or whenever the Green Men and the Isle of Faces are going to feature in the books. Because I'm not expecting them to show up in TWoW. Although folks might talk about them (Howland Reed might, if he appears and has some lines) and they could be seen in one of Bran's visions, etc.

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Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Personally, I think the show fans hate D&D a lot more than book fans do. Book fans complain about and make fun of them. Show fans act like D&D murdered their families and should be arrested for their crimes. 

It's hard for me to say. Virtually everyone I interact with regarding the series, both IRL and online, have read the books, so I don't consider myself well versed in show-only fans or their feelings. But the hatred I see for Benioff and Weiss among book fans (especially on this site) is borderline psychotic and completely unjustified. 

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Rhaenyra and Criston is a tricky situation because on the one hand, she is of a much higher status than him and has power that he doesn’t. On the other hand, she’s a teenage girl and he’s a grown man (in the books, he’s something like fifteen years older than her), and that definitely makes a difference.

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Just now, Black of Hair and Heart said:

It's hard for me to say. Virtually everyone I interact with regarding the series, both IRL and online, have read the books, so I don't consider myself well versed in show-only fans or their feelings. But the hatred I see for Benioff and Weiss among book fans (especially on this site) is borderline psychotic and completely unjustified. 

I’m thinking of the YouTube comments. They are something else, I tell ya. . . 

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35 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think what EggBlue is saying is that Sansa marrying Ramsay was really, really dumb. On a narrative level, you don’t marry your enemies for revenge, especially when your claim is better than theirs. And if you have to take your army back down south again, you leave a few guards behind to watch over the most high-ranking lady in the north. On a thematic level, S4 ended with Sansa taking charge and playing the game after four seasons of being an abused pawn, complete with a Darth Sansa makeover, only to then go back to being an abused pawn and spending the rest of the season locked in a rape tower. It was all so utterly stupid and boring.

The real elephant in the room was the way they made Tyrion their self-insert.  Sansa got punished for rejecting him.

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Rhaenyra and Criston is a tricky situation because on the one hand, she is of a much higher status than him and has power that he doesn’t. On the other hand, she’s a teenage girl and he’s a grown man (in the books, he’s something like fifteen years older than her), and that definitely makes a difference.

Sure enough - in the book the dynamics might be different. If we go with a Criston who really had the hots for Rhaenyra and worked towards the goal to seduce her one day ... for which have no indication.

Insofar as age and authority are concerned the 14-year-old dragonriding Heir Apparent is no small girl. She is a young woman like Daenerys at the end of AGoT. She can have authority and she can wield it.

Rhaenyra was clearly manipulated and seduced by Daemon in both detailed accounts we get in FaB ... but not by Criston Cole.

Criston is a man from a very humble background so his attitude towards a woman like Rhaenyra would be more akin to how Gendry starts to treat Arya after he knows who she is. The class distinction there would very much beat his seniority in age.

To the point that you can have a Criston as a man being twice Rhaenyra's age being lectured by her about the hard realities of life and his place in it. Criston Cole might have been a naive fool believing he could run away with a royal princess and marry her ... while something like that would have always been ridiculous for Rhaenyra because of the way she was brought up.

It is the same kind of silly dream Littlefinger seems to have dreamed. That living with the Tullys would make him one of them. That Cat would love him like he loved her and that this love would have the power to change the world. This is the kind of Pretty Woman fairy-tale nonsense.

What do you guys think about the Harrold Westerling change:

I don't like it that Criston isn't Lord Commander when Viserys dies ... but the idea to have an old guard loyal Lord Commander of the Kingsguard standing up for Viserys' wishes and Rhaenyra seems like a very promising addition. Even more since it explands the importance of the Kingsguard - which were really glossed over by GoT.

I guess Criston will then succeed Harrold as Aegon's Lord Commander, while Westerling is going to die at a later point during the war

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In the latest promo video, GRRM refers to Corlys’s grandfather as being the previous Master of Ships and as having a similar name. Of course, Corlys’s grandfather was Daemon, so I assume GRRM is getting mixed up here and the “similar name” refers to Corwyn Velaryon. Fire and Blood only states that Daemon’s sons were Corwyn, Jorgen and Victor, and separately that Corlys’s father was the eldest, which left us to assume Corwyn was Corlys’s father, but there was always the off chance that Daemon’s sons were not listed by order of age. Last I checked, the Wiki didn’t list Corwyn as Corlys’s father, but to me this video confirms that he was. 

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3 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:


In the latest promo video, GRRM refers to Corlys’s grandfather as being the previous Master of Ships and as having a similar name. Of course, Corlys’s grandfather was Daemon, so I assume GRRM is getting mixed up here and the “similar name” refers to Corwyn Velaryon. Fire and Blood only states that Daemon’s sons were Corwyn, Jorgen and Victor, and separately that Corlys’s father was the eldest, which left us to assume Corwyn was Corlys’s father, but there was always the off chance that Daemon’s sons were not listed by order of age. Last I checked, the Wiki didn’t list Corwyn as Corlys’s father, but to me this video confirms that he was. 

Yeah he probably made a mistake here and got confused between Daemon 2 and Corlys the Kingsguard or something like that. As much as I'd like confirmation that Corwyn is indeed Corlys's father, I wouldn't base this information on an erronous quote.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon
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4 hours ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

It's hard for me to say. Virtually everyone I interact with regarding the series, both IRL and online, have read the books, so I don't consider myself well versed in show-only fans or their feelings. But the hatred I see for Benioff and Weiss among book fans (especially on this site) is borderline psychotic and completely unjustified. 

By contrast, I am a Star Wars and Star Trek fan and the hatred of D&D is completely mild from everything I see. Yes, they get called hacks and people who "ruined" the franchise but that's nothing near the kind of abuse thrown about for, say, being brown and female.

And yes, them getting lumped with JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman is harsh but I'm sure they're really hurt all the way to the bank.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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49 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

By contrast, I am a Star Wars and Star Trek fan and the hatred of D&D is completely mild from everything I see. Yes, they get called hacks and people who "ruined" the franchise but that's nothing near the kind of abuse thrown about for, say, being brown and female.

And yes, them getting lumped with JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman is harsh but I'm sure they're really hurt all the way to the bank.

Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson is a fair comparison for the two D’s.

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

LF never compelled her to travel to Winterfell.  He talked Sansa into doing something that made no sense for either of them.

The point about Jeyne and Alys is their stories are given to another character in a way that makes no sense.

Didn't Bryan Cogman say that they wanted Ramsay's atrocities happen to a primary character instead of a secondary one, like Jeyne Poole? They thought it would have a bigger impact on viewers. 

 

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