the next House of the Dragon thread

[butterweedstrover]

7 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

The second season of The Boys was very middling.  

I thought the 2nd season was better than the first

7 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

As for Martin, he's gone from acclaimed and decently successful author to one of the more successful Hollywood stories. I'm sure he'll find some way to cope with not earning more Emmys.

For some reason I seriously doubt that. 

[Lord Varys]

24 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You are confusing ASOIAF and the HBO universe. The HBO universe never established that Valyrians or dragonriders are exclusively pale white people. It wasn't relevant in GOT. They didn't even bother to establish purple eyes. So no need to adhere to that notion here. It doesn't affect anything. It doesn't matter because the Velaryons weren't a dragonriding family in the first place. It also doesn't matter because even in TWOIAF it is made clear that Valyrian dragonriding families preferred incest over marrying with one another. So if they really wanted to go deeper into Valyria there's no HBO universe reason there couldn't be black Valyrians and black dragonriding families. Being white is something Targaryens share with most of Westeros, so no biggie creating Valyrians who actually do look different than Westerosi.

I don't really care about the 'HBO universe'. This is an adaptation of a book, so it should cling to the concepts, plots, stories, names, characters, etc. from that book.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I do think it would've been better for Corlys' branch of the Velaryon family to be black due to having a black Summer Islander maternal ancestor and the rest of the family to be white Valyrian. It both makes for interesting drama with a real-life parallel when the other Velaryons try to seize control of Driftmark after Laenor dies and it lends credence to the belief that Rhaenyra's elder three sons are legitimate. The only ones who truly believe that Rhaenyra's elder sons were illegitimately sired by Harwyn Strong are Mushroom. Everyone else who professes such a belief either has an agenda that benefits from denigrating Rhaenyra's sons or they just are hateful.

Yes, that would have been a better plotline ... although I think having black Strongs, black Hightowers, or black supporting characters (Grand Maester Orwyle is apparently also black) would have messed much less with established character looks and traits ... and their historical marriages.

I mean, we have no description for Otto, Alicent, and the other Hightowers, just as we have no description for the Strongs, meaning they could have looked like whatever the show guys wanted them to look. With the Velaryons it is different. And that also goes for certain members of the established families. Jeyne Arryn, for instance, is succeed by her fifth cousin ... meaning she could have easily been black as well.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

However, it's not the end of the world @Lord Varys. There's no need to get worked up over this.

I'm not worked up, I just find it sad that they mess with the Velaryon family and give Corlys/Rhaenys story a kind of spin that's not really there in the books. They are the most prestigious power couple in Westeros at that point ... and then they are fucked over. Rhaenys and Corlys are not outsiders who are snubbed by the establishment, they are very much in the center of it.

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

It should be noted that the Targaryen dynasty continues through Viserys II and Larra Rogare...who will most likely be white. The sons of Aegon Dragonbane and Daenaera Velaryon all die childless and their daughters either marry into other families or die childless.

True enough, although I'd also say a kind of black Daeron I and Baelor I would also be something I'd have to wrap my head around. How Larra is going to look is up in the air, too. After all, if pure-blooded Valyrians aren't all albinos she could easily enough be black to. Or Asian, like Mysaria, who might also be Lysene in the show.

But I'm honestly not expecting that Daenaera Velaryon is going to be a thing in the show. Both because the show is likely not going to cover the entire Regency era - if they bother with that at all - and because they might deem it a more well-rounded ending if Aegon and Jaehaera were to continue the royal bloodline.

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

On the matter of Joffrey's death. I do think that he being thrown off a dragon he isn't bonded too is too iconic and important of a scene to omit.

Yes, that's right. But it doesn't necessarily have to be Syrax.

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But if you want more of a role for Morghul (which belongs to Princess Jaehaera), you can have it so that Joffrey tries to take Morghul to the Dragonpit instead of Shrykos. And then have it so that a riderless Morghul finds it way to Harrenhal where it can be claimed by Alys Rivers or her son.

If Alys Rivers has a dragon I'd go with a new hatchling come from an egg Vhagar produced while she and Aemond were flying around in the Riverlands.

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

And how is it a dick move on Rhaenyra's part to give the dragon of the boy killed by Blood & Cheese to one of her own sons? It is what it is. The boy has been long dead and buried and one of her own sons -- who are the rightful heirs to the Iron Throne after Rhaenyra, mind you -- needs a dragon. There's a free dragon that happens to have been the former dragon of the boy that has been long dead and buried.

Sure enough, I meant something like that could be presented easily enough as a dick move ... if Alicent would have to witness it.

I guess Shrykos being still very small could mean he escapes the Dragonpit and ends up with Gaemon Palehair or Trystane Truefyre.

[IFR]

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I thought the 2nd season was better than the first

I strongly disagree with you here. I thought the first season was decent, but I nearly gave up due to the second season. Homelander was all that kept me going.

But to each their own, really. 

12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

For some reason I seriously doubt that. 

GoT won more primetime Emmys than any scripted show in existence. Martin has made tens of millions of dollars from his work with HBO. Martin is world renown, which is a very hard status for an author to achieve. If his new show doesn't get an award that is only given each year to a few shows out of hundreds, then maybe Martin should have healthier expectations in life.

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

GoT won more primetime Emmys than any scripted show in existence. Martin has made tens of millions of dollars from his work with HBO. Martin is world renown, which is a very hard status for an author to achieve. If his new show doesn't get an award that is only given each year to a few shows out of hundreds, then maybe Martin should have healthier expectations in life.

When you give someone something they end up wanting more. The appetite cannot be filled. 
 

For now wants to build a cinematic universe for himself without having to write anything. And part of that is getting showered with accolades.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, IFR said:

I strongly disagree with you here. I thought the first season was decent, but I nearly gave up due to the second season. Homelander was all that kept me going.

But to each their own, really. 

GoT won more primetime Emmys than any scripted show in existence. Martin has made tens of millions of dollars from his work with HBO. Martin is world renown, which is a very hard status for an author to achieve. If his new show doesn't get an award that is only given each year to a few shows out of hundreds, then maybe Martin should have healthier expectations in life.

In view of the number of Emmys that were given to Season Shit, it doesn't seem to me an award that means much, in terms of quality.

[Lady_Qohor]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't really care about the 'HBO universe'. This is an adaptation of a book, so it should cling to the concepts, plots, stories, names, characters, etc. from that book.

Surely its ok to change a few minor things from the book if it results in a better viewing experience. Does a minor bit of lore really matter as much as ensuring that a significant portion of the audience feel as though they too are part of the Game of Thrones world?

I also think we have to be careful here. It feels like some of the people criticising black Velaryons didn't quibble nearly so much that Daenerys wasn't played by a 13 year old actress, that Bran & Rickon didn't have red hair, that Jon Snow's hair was black rather than brown, that Olenna Tyrell wasn't as tiny as described in the book or that Charles Dance didn't have side burns.

[Le Cygne]

Never mind, that was question was answered.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Le Cygne

[Le Cygne]

Some of the reviews, like this one, made me want to pass, and wait and see how it goes (there are certain things I wish I'd never read, so I really don't want to see them):

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/review-house-of-the-dragon-isnt-game-of-thrones-but-itll-do

In terms of what would this reader be interested in, I'd have liked to see Dunk and Egg, because it's got a lot of atmosphere and humor. I think that would be very appealing.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Le Cygne

[C.T. Phipps]

36 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Some of the reviews, like this one, made me want to pass, and wait and see how it goes (there are certain things I wish I'd never read, so I really don't want to see them):

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/review-house-of-the-dragon-isnt-game-of-thrones-but-itll-do

In terms of what would this reader be interested in, I'd have liked to see Dunk and Egg, because it's got a lot of atmosphere and humor. I think that would be very appealing.

I love Dunk and Egg but I don't think it could be a Game of Throne success. It's not got nearly enough material and is far more focused on two characters.

[The Bard of Banefort]

42 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Some of the reviews, like this one, made me want to pass, and wait and see how it goes (there are certain things I wish I'd never read, so I really don't want to see them):

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/08/review-house-of-the-dragon-isnt-game-of-thrones-but-itll-do

In terms of what would this reader be interested in, I'd have liked to see Dunk and Egg, because it's got a lot of atmosphere and humor. I think that would be very appealing.

It’s weird, because this review is listed as positive/fresh, but it reads pretty critical to me.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Khloey said:

Yeah, but critics weren't exactly enthousiast about the first season of GOT either, and yet it became what it is.

Really? I didn't know that.

[Le Cygne]

28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird, because this review is listed as positive/fresh, but it reads pretty critical to me.

Oh, it sure does read critical, I found myself laughing, he slammed them so hard. He calls it cosplay, says it's superficial, calls out the excesses (including the grooming of a young girl by her uncle).

I guess the title fooled whoever classified it, it reminded them of Babe. That'll do, Babe was a sentiment of understated affection when said in that movie, but it'll do is an underwhelming assessment for a show.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Le Cygne

[butterweedstrover]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh, it sure does read critical, I found myself laughing, he slammed them so hard. He calls it cosplay, says it's superficial, calls out the excesses (including the grooming of a young girl by her uncle).

I guess the title fooled whoever classified it, it reminded them of Babe. That'll do, Babe was a sentiment of understated affection when said in that movie, but it'll do is an underwhelming assessment for a show.

It was a very eloquent put down and it had the confidence not to overstate its thesis and allow the arguments to be damning in of themselves. 

Everyone is focusing on the silly criticism and not the substantive aspects of what people are saying. Incidentally I think the fans will love it for all the lore dumps and references, but if you haven't read the books that stuff doesn't count. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Most of the reviews have been pretty mild. The critical ones aren’t that harsh and the positive ones are rather lukewarm. Which is quite an achievement considering the content. Nevertheless, I’ve seen a lot of Targ stan meltdowns today.

[Le Cygne]

56 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I love Dunk and Egg but I don't think it could be a Game of Throne success. It's not got nearly enough material and is far more focused on two characters.

I love it too. Maybe it wouldn't be a blockbuster but audiences would love it.

Dunk is such a lovable character, and Egg comes close. It's a buddy story, those are always popular. Two buddies on a journey together who encounter many interesting characters along the way, so there's always something new happening. Lots of enjoyable medieval traditions like tournaments and fairs with puppet shows and feasting. There's risque humor with double entendre (John the Fiddler). A villain and an unforgettable hero (Prince Baelor). And even some sweet and bittersweet romance. I think it's some of GRRM's best writing and would translate very well to the screen.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Le Cygne

[IFR]

18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It was a very eloquent put down and it had the confidence not to overstate its thesis and allow the arguments to be damning in of themselves. 

Everyone is focusing on the silly criticism and not the substantive aspects of what people are saying. Incidentally I think the fans will love it for all the lore dumps and references, but if you haven't read the books that stuff doesn't count. 

We really don't know for sure how substantive we feel the criticisms are until we personally view the show. For instance, I'm mostly dismissive of critics, but there is a chance that I will find myself agreeing with them when I actually watch the show.

I find it unlikely though, for reasons already stated. Critics in the absolute sense of whether they like something or not are an unreliable baramoter of quality, I find. She-Hulk has a metacritic approval roughly on par with Hot D. I sometimes like really dumb shows of that nature and I tried watching it. And I barely made it through the first episode. It's generic Marvel fare, nonsensical, and with poor special effects. The humor is...well, Marvel humor, which is getting to be old at this point. 

Seriously, I would rather attend a lecture on welding by an octogenarian than watch another episode of that.

But quite a few critics quite like it. Which, among other things, informs my assessment on how well critics can predict my own enjoyment on other material such as Hot D.

Edited August 19, 2022 by IFR

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I love it too. Maybe it wouldn't be a blockbuster but audiences would love it.

Dunk is such a lovable character, and Egg comes close. It's a buddy story, those are always popular. Two buddies on a journey together who encounter many interesting characters along the way, so there's always something new happening. Lots of enjoyable medieval traditions like tournaments and fairs with puppet shows and feasting. There's risque humor with double entendre (John the Fiddler). A villain and an unforgettable hero (Prince Baelor). And even some sweet and bittersweet romance. I think it's some of GRRM's best writing and would translate very well to the screen.

John the Fiddler, and Dunk being quite clueless that he was making a pass is very funny, and would go down well on TV.

[Farerb]

I think people will like Dunk and Egg. They liked Arya and the Hound in season 4, and Dunk and Egg will actually have a plot.

[Caligula_K3]

I let myself get hyped up about the show, but since reading the reviews I'm feeling a little warier about it. Targaryen history has never been my favourite part of GRRM's worldbuilding, which is too bad, since it's what he seems to mainly be interested in for the last fifteen years. For fans like myself and maybe general audiences, reviews criticizing the show for having "too many Targaryens talking about Targaryen politics" are worth taking seriously. I'll give it a shot, but am keeping expectations more along the lines of Wheel of Time level than Game of Thrones level.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Most of the reviews have been pretty mild. The critical ones aren’t that harsh and the positive ones are rather lukewarm. Which is quite an achievement considering the content. Nevertheless, I’ve seen a lot of Targ stan meltdowns today.

What are Targaryen stans ;-)?