Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Spockydog said: I think we are about to be told just who is allowed to fight back against brutal occupying forces, and who isn't. Rule of thumb, the side that says they want to kill everyone on the other side doesn't get a leg to stand on. Just because they lack the means doesn't absolve their intentions. Edited October 7, 2023 by Tywin et al. Corvinus85, Farerb and Ser Scot A Ellison 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) Is that the view of all Palestinians, or just a noisy minority? Cos plenty of Israelis are saying very similar things about the Palestinians. And does that also mean that just because some in Ukraine are saying some pretty ridiculous things about what they want to to all Russians, that Ukraine also doesnot havea leg to stand on.? I'm guessing you haven't seen the footage of the IDF beating up old ladies in the past few days? Edited October 7, 2023 by Spockydog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 And to be clear, what is happening right now is awful. For everyone out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Is that the view of all Palestinians, or just a noisy minority? Cos plenty of Israelis are saying very similar things about the Palestinians. Leadership. It's their expressed view that Israel should not exist and have tied themselves to groups that openly say they want every Jew dead or removed. Their views are no different from the Nazis. Now that said right wing Israelis are also pieces of shit. Edited October 7, 2023 by Tywin et al. Ser Scot A Ellison and Farerb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Re-legislating the very long previous topics on this subject during a moment when civilians on both sides are being killed and the hardliners on both sides are urging massive escalation may not be productive. I don't think it's controversial to say that the mass murder and deaths of civilians of any stripe in deliberate or accidental strikes is unacceptable, and that both the Israeli government and some in the Palestinian leadership (particularly Hamas) have been itching for any excuse to massively escalate the situation maybe to an endgame scenario. For the current Israeli hardline government, that might be full annexation of the West Bank and a ground operation into Gaza to try to eliminate Hamas. For Hamas, that might be pushing Israel to such an incredibly escalatory move that their allies in Syria and Iran are forced to intervene, and they are capable of inflicting much greater punishment on Israel (of course, this carries with it massive escalatory risks including Israeli attacks on Iran and Syria, where Russian troops are deeply embedded with some Syrian government forces). That in turn may draw in the United States, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other countries. Hamas may be banking on Israel not wanting to risk that, in which case I think they will be disappointed. Both sides are spinning the hell out of this: Israel is pushing the narrative that this was a massively unprovoked attack on civilians, Hamas that this is retaliation for years of Israel either turning a blind eye to settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, continuing to besiege Gaza and delivering the death of a thousand cuts to the West Bank by continuing to de facto annex more and more land that leave it completely nonviable as a future, contiguous Palestinian state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Abigail Nussbaum reports from the ground: "By this evening I expect the worst of the incursion to be repelled, but it must be said: this was a monumental intelligence, military, and government failure. ...." https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/war-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Fuck religion. DireWolfSpirit and Which Tyler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 The scenes coming out of Sderot are particularly horrific at the moment. OSINT sources are refusing to publish the videos and photographs coming out of the area (and probably even X-Twitter would nuke them if they tried) because they are far too graphic. Shades of Bucha going on. Palestinian sources pointing out some horrific scenes from Israeli settlers raiding Palestinian neighbours in the past few months, but this seems to be on a more brutal scale. Israeli fatalities are escalating towards the hundreds, which the country has not endured in a single attack in decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) I expect these attacks will kneecap the growing western support for Palestinians. This is as much a mass shooting as a military operation. I've seen multiple videos of Hamas fighters shooting random civilians and just attacking the populace. Edited October 7, 2023 by Darzin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Aye. It's very difficult to remain supportive when these types of atrocities are being committed. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Zorral said: Abigail Nussbaum reports from the ground: "By this evening I expect the worst of the incursion to be repelled, but it must be said: this was a monumental intelligence, military, and government failure. ...." https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/war-3 Total agreement with her. I'm just baffled that such a large scale and coordinated attack from what was effectively always a tightly locked up reservation actually went through. Given Israel's overwhelming military superiority, it's just mind-boggling. So much so that I've already read the first conspiracies spring up that Israeli intelligence must have let it happen in order to justify a new occupation of the Gaza strip because nobody could be so incompetent to let them just waltz through. To be honest, I see where those voices are coming from, it seems just so incomprehensibly out of character for Israeli forces to not stop such a brazen attack in its infancy. Of course, her other assessment that it itself is a desperation strike in response to a warming Israel-Saudi relationship and Israel's existence becoming as firmly accepted among its neighbors as ever before sounds very plausible to me. It's an all or nothing attack, which will have disastrous consequences either way you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) Yes, US support for Israel had become strained in recent years, but this situation has seen the US completely step up to 100% solidly back Israel. That was an own goal in a very large sense. The footage of Hamas forces killing Israeli civilians queuing for the bus or hiding in their homes will not help their cause at all outside of the already-extant hardliners (Hamas apparently took some of the footage themselves, which is particularly cretinous), no matter how hard they try to justify it with previous Israeli incursions. If Hamas had been intelligent, they would have limited attacks to military personnel. It does, however, complicate the until-recently likely recognition of Israel by Saudi Arabia and potentially more countries in the region. That process is certainly on hold. The perception now is that Israel needs to respond with overwhelming force and incredibly decisively to show they have a handle on the situation. Edited October 7, 2023 by Werthead Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 44 minutes ago, Spockydog said: And to be clear, what is happening right now is awful. For everyone out there. I’m seeing reports of Israeli kids being halled back to Gaza as hostages. This will end badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 32 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Fuck religion. ^Helpful^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 24 minutes ago, Werthead said: The scenes coming out of Sderot are particularly horrific at the moment. OSINT sources are refusing to publish the videos and photographs coming out of the area (and probably even X-Twitter would nuke them if they tried) because they are far too graphic. Shades of Bucha going on. Palestinian sources pointing out some horrific scenes from Israeli settlers raiding Palestinian neighbours in the past few months, but this seems to be on a more brutal scale. Israeli fatalities are escalating towards the hundreds, which the country has not endured in a single attack in decades. I’m seeing reports of an Israeli Army base being overrun. That means the arms and materiale in the base can be snatched by Hamas… https://x.com/flutemagician/status/1710681338162872603?s=46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) Over 100 Israelis dead, almost 1,000 injured. At least 53 claimed hostages taken. The death toll in Gaza is apparently over 200, from around three hours ago. Israel now stating it will carry out a "heavy ground operation" in Gaza, whilst air strikes are continuing. Edited October 7, 2023 by Werthead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: ^Helpful^ They all worship the same god. And yet... So, yeah, fuck religion. And I'm sure the ghosts of the bazillions killed in the name of religion would agree with me. Edited October 7, 2023 by Spockydog Arakasi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I’m seeing reports of Israeli kids being halled back to Gaza as hostages. This will end badly. One incident of a girl being filmed being raped by Hamas fighters. Leaving aside the evil of it, one has to be a total, fucking, moron to think that that is a propaganda victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Spockydog said: They all worship the same god. And yet... So, yeah, fuck religion. And I'm sure the ghosts of the bazillions killed in the name of religion would agree with me. Even if they had the same religion, they'd justify the same violence with nationalism, which is actually at the historic root of the issue. The religious aspect is just further gasoline poured into the fire to spice up the hatred some more. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Spockydog said: They all worship the same god. And yet... So, yeah, fuck religion. And I'm sure the ghosts of the bazillions killed in the name of religion would agree with me. In my earnest opinion the problem isn’t “religion” (see, most of Karen Armstrong’s Bibliography). It’s people. We can, and do, use any excuse we can find to seek to impose our will upon others. This isn’t a problem that is exclusive to religious ideas. If you want to further pursue this we should probably take it to another thread so as not to cluter this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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