Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

It's not lack of familiarity. It's just that I am only listing what they do in the TV show because they qualify as Complete Monsters only there (if you go and actually bother to read the list again, you would see that). Their book counterparts have some very minor mitigating factors which disqualify them from being Complete Monsters.

Would the fact that Littlefinger didn't do half the stuff he's accused of be one of the "very minor mitigating factors" you are referencing?  Just wondering.  Though that hardly sounds minor.

[boltons are sick]

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Would the fact that Littlefinger didn't do half the stuff he's accused of be one of the "very minor mitigating factors" you are referencing?  Just wondering.  Though that hardly sounds minor.

Which things he didn't commit? Like I said, the CM entry is only about TV Littlefinger because his book counterpart has some very minor preventions and is instead Near Pure Evil, so don't try to use that as a "gotcha" moment!

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

his book counterpart has some very minor preventions

And what are these?

[Cas Stark]

Book Cersei and Show Cersei are very, very different characters.  

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

She literally says she feels sorry FOR THE BLUE BARD. Even if she tries to shift blame, it still shows that she is uncomfortable about what she is doing and even considers for a moment to stop his torture which further shows that she feels remorse. 

 Feeling genuine remorse for something bad you did is considered a redeeming quality. Being a self-centered prick who knows how to exploit the system and the people to acquire more power for himself is not a redeeming quality. That's the big difference.

 

She seems a bit uncomfortable when she sends away an innocent woman to be tortured and raped to death, too. 

[boltons are sick]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

And what are these?

His backstory is slightly more tragic because Lysa raped him while he was drunk on at least two occasions.

 

Also, his relationship with Sansa is a lot more ambiguous than it is the show and GRRM himself has said in an interview his Littlefinger would never give Sansa to someone like Ramsay.

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Alester Florent]

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Would the fact that Littlefinger didn't do half the stuff he's accused of be one of the "very minor mitigating factors" you are referencing?  Just wondering.  Though that hardly sounds minor.

"Lord Baelish, you are accused of eating all the cheese in the Moon, so that it no longer exists. What say you?"

"None of that ever happened."

"Accepted. On account of this minor mitigating factor, I hereby commute your punishment from death by a thousand cuts to death by 999 cuts".

Edited April 6, 2023 by Alester Florent

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

It's not lack of familiarity. It's just that I am only listing what they do in the TV show because they qualify as Complete Monsters only there (if you go and actually bother to read the list again, you would see that). Their book counterparts have some very minor mitigating factors which disqualify them from being Complete Monsters.

Then you definitely should take this discussion to the show forum. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

His backstory is slightly more tragic because Lysa raped him while he was drunk on at least two occasions.

Just slightly more tragic? That he was raped multiple times? Cersei being raped apparently gives her a licence to kill, so...

5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, his relationship with Sansa is a lot more ambiguous than it is the show and GRRM himself has said in an interview his Littlefinger would never give Sansa to someone like Ramsay.

Ah, so one of the worst things he does doesn't actually happen in the books. Okay.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Nevets]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

"Lord Baelish, you zre a ccused of eating all the cheese in the Moon, so that it no longer exists. What say you?"

"None of that ever happened."

"Accepted. On account of this minor mitigating factor, I hereby commute your punishment from death by a thousand cuts to death by 999 cuts".

I'm not saying he's a good guy or that I like him.  I consider him to be one of the main villains in the series.  Maybe not quite as bad as Cersei, but definitely malevolent.  And some of the stuff listed really was quite bad.  Also, I don't pin all the blame for the War of the 5 Kings on him.  He had lots of help and material to work with.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, this thread doesn’t belong here when it’s much more about the show characters than their book counterparts. I’m not sure it belongs n the show forum either but at least there it would be out of sight. 

[boltons are sick]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Just slightly more tragic? That he was raped multiple times? Cersei being raped apparently gives her a licence to kill, so...

Ah, so one of the worst things he does doesn't actually happen in the books. Okay.

In both versions he is responsible for the War of the Five Kings which gives him one of the single highest body counts out of anyone in the entire series which easily puts him above the heinous standard.

 

And no, Cersei cheating on Robert doesn't count and claiming that Littlefinger's machinations in creating the war by killing Jon Arryn and framing Cersei and her family in front of the Starks, framing Bran's attempted murder on the Lannisters which causes Tywin to attack the Riverlands in the first place and then him making sure that Ned would be arrested by Joffrey by deliberately killing all of his men are not more malicious than Cersei simply not wanting a child from a man who repeatedly rapes her is laughable and is extremely SEXIST. We normally don't count actions that are unintentional and Cersei's impact on starting the War of the Five is too unintentional to qualify as a "crime", so according to our standards, it doesn't count to her rapsheet. If it's unintentional, we don't count the action, period, and Cersei literally tries to negotiate with Ned and then makes Sansa send a letter to Robb in an attempt to prevent fighting against House Stark which shows it wasn't intentional and this means according to our standards, we don't qualify it as a crime at all.

Essentially, all she does is kill her husband who raped her, kill Ned's men, kill 2 of Robert's bastards, send 4 people to Qyburn, torture the Blue Bard and try to frame Margaery for adultery and that' she extent of her rapsheet of crimes and as you can see, she doesn't really harm that many people. 

 

However, the way in which the fans speak about her would make me believe that she is worse than someone like Hitler who killed millions of people in an attempted genocide. You probably even think that Hitler is a better person than Cersei because he "knows how to rule" just like Tywin, right? Or how about Stalin who also killed millions of people with his brutal camps? Is he also a better person than Cersei just because he "knows how to rule" like Tywin?

 I am sorry, but I do think there is a lot of sexism in how Cersei is judged because women who are not always pure and moral tend to be judged much more harshly than men who do much worse than them and it shows in the case of Cersei due to how she is judged as being morally worse because she cheats on a guy who is rapist and tries to protect her children from him (seriously, why isn't Robert's rape judged more harshly than whatever she did to him) than a guy who DELIBERATELY gets hundreds of thousands of people killed by pitting two noble guys against each other and another guy who kills tens of thousands of peasants in his pillaging of the Riverlands.

 That's why when we judge characters by morality, there needs to be a strict set of criteria because most people be like "muh, I hate Cersai so I am going to rank as high as possible and also assign the atrocities Tywin commited to make her look even worse".

Edited April 6, 2023 by boltons are sick

[EggBlue]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:40 PM, boltons are sick said:

For those of you who don't know, the Complete Monster (also known as Pure Evil) is a trope created by TV Tropes, so they can categorize villainous characters who are exceptionally heinous by the standards of the story, have no redeeming qualities and are completely unsympathetic.

Neither of the two versions of Cersei is considered a Complete Monster due to her many redeeming qualities, excuses for her actions and being played heavily for sympathy by the story.

Most of her actions are just motivated by a desire to keep her family safe and she is not morally worse than characters like Jaime or Tyrion who are liked by the fandom.

You can read more about the criteria of what constitutes a Complete Monster here

Below are the entries from TV Tropes of all 25 characters from the franchise (this includes the TV show and video games) who have been approved as Complete Monsters:

Book Continuity

Main series 

• King Joffrey I Baratheon of King's Landing, despite his young age, stands out as one of the vilest characters in the series. While always shown to have a darker side, Joffrey finally crosses the line when he has Lord Eddard "Ned" Stark executed, ensuring that the war with the Northerners would never reach a peaceful conclusion. Joffrey not only does this in front of Ned's daughter, Sansa, Joffrey's own fiancée, he then forces her to look at the decapitated heads of her father and household afterwards. This is followed by a long period of Domestic Abuse during which Joffrey has her regularly beaten by his Kingsguard and threatens to rape her even after she marries his uncle, Tyrion Lannister. As king, Joffrey revels in his power over life and death, and his reign is filled with all manner of pointless cruelties, his crimes including: having a minstrel whose song offended him choose between losing his fingers or his tongue; attempting to have a drunken knight drowned in a cask of wine; firing on starving peasants with his crossbow; ordering his bodyguard to cut through a crowd of peasants to get at one of them who threw manure at him; nailing antlers to the heads of sympathizers to his uncle and rival for the Iron Throne, Stannis, and firing them from trebuchets as entertainment during the Battle of the Blackwater; and attempting to convince his grandfather to execute everyone who fought against him, regardless of whether or not they surrendered. A budding psychopath who believes being the king gives him the right to do whatever he likes, Joffrey's sadism is so great that he is noted to be well on his way to surpassing his predecessor as the next Mad King of the Seven Kingdoms.

• Ser Gregor Clegane, aka "the Mountain that Rides", is a sadist who serves House Lannister and one of the most feared men in Westeros, rumored to have murdered his sister, father, and two wives. When he was 12, he burned half of his brother Sandor's face when the latter played with one of his toys. At 17, he dashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall, then raped and murdered the latter's mother, Princess Elia. While at a tournament, Gregor murders one of his opponents, then tries to kill another and Sandor after losing a joust. Following the tournament, he and his men gang-rape an innkeeper's daughter. Unleashed on the Riverlands, Gregor and his men rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands. At one point, for ten days, Gregor picks one person each day from a group of villagers to torture for information. After one villager volunteers to save her daughter, Gregor has the daughter tortured the next day to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. He tortures Vargo Hoat, including cutting strips of flesh from Hoat and feeding them to him, before letting Hoat die. During a duel with Oberyn Martell, Princess Elia's brother, who asserts his responsibility for the murder of his sister and her children to him, Gregor's only concern is that Oberyn got the order of events wrong, correcting him before brutally crushing Oberyn's skull.

• Ramsay Snow, the Bastard of Bolton, stands out as one of the most savage and depraved men in Westeros. Suspected of murdering his good-hearted, trueborn brother, Ramsay first comes to prominence after he forces Lady Hornwood to marry him to gain her lands. Having already starved her to death, Ramsay avoids death at the hands of Winterfell soldiers by impersonating his servant, Reek, then sending his "friend" to die in his place. When Theon Greyjoy takes over Winterfell, the imprisoned Ramsay allies himself with Greyjoy and acts as a corruptive influence, ultimately being the one to convince Theon to cross the line by murdering two little boys to pass them off as Bran and Rickon Stark. Gathering his own forces, Ramsay slaughters Ser Rodrik's Northerner soldiers, then betrays and captures Theon before ordering his men to raze Winterfell and slaughter everyone inside. One of Ramsay's favorite past-times is flaying people alive and he's done this many times, from the people he tortures, to the girls he hunts for fun that give him bad sport, to the surrendering Ironborn forces of Moat Cailin after Ramsay promised them mercy. Ramsay is also responsible for physically and mentally torturing Theon Greyjoy to condition him into a pathetic, insane wretch who believes himself the new Reek. Taking an Arya Stark impersonator as his wife to maintain Bolton control of the North, Ramsay abuses her constantly, despite her usefulness, even forcing Theon to participate in her wedding night bedding. A half-feral beast of a man, Ramsay lives to satisfy his sadistic urges and is so pointlessly and moronically cruel that even his own sociopathic father has to hold himself back from killing him.

• Craster is a wicked, hedonistic Wildling and uneasy ally of the Night's Watch. Keeping a harem of abused women, Craster rapes them in his isolated keep beyond the Wall, even assaulting any female children born to his "wives" from a prepubescent age. Any male children born are left as sacrifices to the Others, Craster desiring nothing more than a life to enjoy casually raping the women in his keep free of consequence.

• Rorge is a Serial Rapist and Serial Killer—especially of children—and the worst of the Brave Companions, his cruelty even exceeding their leader, Vargo Hoat. Freed along with his companion Biter, Rorge signs on with the "Bloody Mummers" after Arya Stark saves him from certain death, to which he responds by threatening to sodomize her with her own wooden sword. After the Brave Companions capture Jaime and Brienne, Rorge attempts to rape Brienne and threatens to mutilate her face if she screams. After Hoat's death, Rorge leads a band of brigands on the raid on Saltpans, resulting in the massacre of nearly the entire town. Rorge personally kills 20 men and rapes a 12-year-old girl, mutilating her then giving the girl to his men to mutilate her further. Upon encountering Brienne again, Rorge expresses a desire to cut off her legs and have her watch him rape a 10-year-old girl—with the latter's own crossbow. Additional material indicates that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs.

• Euron Greyjoy, captain of the Silence, is the evilest of the Ironborn and perhaps the most wicked man to ever raise a sail. Having murdered his elder brother as a child, he later murdered the infant Robin while molesting his brothers Aeron and Urrigon. Scorning all taboos and gods alike, Euron was later exiled by his brother Balon and took to reaving and murdering all across the world. Killing and raping countless innocents, Euron has Balon murdered and returns to claim the Seastone Chair, killing all who object in sadistically inventive ways. Capturing his brother Aeron, Euron subjects him to nightmarish psychological torture while having the Shield Islands sacked and their nobles raped and murdered. Taking his pregnant mistress Falia Flowers, Euron removes her tongue to be lashed to the prow with Aeron and numerous other holy men and warlocks whom he has tortured, with the intent to use them as a sacrifice in an upcoming battle. Planning on nothing less than to rise as a new god from the graves and charnel pits, Euron plots the apocalypse to reshape himself into something new and terrible.

The World of Ice & Fire; Archmaester Gyldayn's Histories; Fire & Blood

• House Targaryen:

  • King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", usurped the throne from his nephew and promptly decapitated the one Archmaester who protested. As king, Maegor turned to brutal tactics to suppress the Faith of the Seven, even riding on his dragon Balerion to burn down a Sept with all worshippers inside, using archers to pick off stragglers. Maegor proceeded to commit massacre after massacre, even passing off the skulls of poor smallfolk in the wrong place at the wrong time as members of the Faith's warriors. Following the capture of Wat the Hewer, a leader of the Poor Fellows, Maegor had his limbs cut off. Worse still was Maegor's attitudes towards family: Maegor killed his own nephew in combat, and then had his second nephew captured and tortured to death. When one of his wives gave birth to a "stillborn monstrosity," Maegor had her, everyone at the birth, and her entire family executed. Obsessed with having an heir, Maegor forcibly married three women, including his own niece. After having the Red Keep constructed, Maegor also had the builders massacred to keep its secrets to himself.

  • Queen Tyanna of the Tower is the third wife of Maegor the Cruel. A former Pentoshi courtesan rumored to dabble in alchemy and sorcery, Tyanna served as Maegor's chief spy, plotting the deaths of thousands for Maegor. When Maegor's nephews rebelled, Tyanna personally tortured Prince Viserys for nine days before he expired, with many, many more innocents dying in agony at her hands. Tyanna would poison Maegor's other wives to ensure they birthed only stillborn monstrosities, including Queen Alys Harroway, who Tyanna herself tortured to death while dozens of Alys's suspected lovers died, along with Alys's entire House. Justly feared and despised during Maegor's reign, Tyanna was one of the few who could rival her husband for wickedness and sadism.

• Sers "Hard" Hugh Hammer and Ulf (the) White, aka "The Betrayers", are dragon tamers descending from Targaryen bastards recruited by Queen Rhaenrya I Targaryen. Defecting to her rival-brother King Aegon II's side, Hugh and Ulf attack Tumbleton, scorching the town with their dragons and killing thousands in the burning and many more drowning in the river as they try to flee. Having Tumbleton's gates opened to sack it, women—and girls as young as eight—are raped, babies are impaled on spears, and Ulf personally makes a point of raping three maidens per night, feeding those who fail to satisfy him to his dragon. While Ulf demands Highgarden for his services, Hugh plans to depose Aegon and take the throne himself with his dragon, nailing horseshoes to the head of one man who angrily knocks off Hugh's self-made crown.

• The Ironborn loved to Rape, Pillage, and Burn:

  • House Greyjoy: Dalton Greyjoy, one of the earlier Greyjoys, aka the "Red Kraken" and Lord-Reaper of Pyke during the Dance of the Dragons, began his reaving when he was only a boy. At the age of 12, Dalton began killing men and taking salt-wives for his own, with numerous successful raids behind him. During the Dance, Dalton indulged his bloodlust by raiding up and down the west coast, sacking cities and taking hundreds of women as salt-wives while quickly tiring of women and passing others to his brothers if he did not find them attractive enough. Attacking even noble houses and plotting to sack and conquer even pillars of Westeros such as Oldtown, Dalton was only stopped after one such salt-wife, known as Tess, opened his throat in revenge for her rape as he slept.

  • House Hoare: King Qhored I Hoare, aka "Qhored the Cruel", was a vicious Ironborn ruler who had thousands of women captured and raped. Brutally killing one subject's sons for his being late in paying him tribute, Qhored also ordered the sacking of Oldtown, his warring and raiding plaguing the continent for three-quarters of a century.

• Yi Ti/YiTish Mythology: The Bloodstone Emperor is the jealous second son of the semi-divine Opal Emperor. Murdering his own older sister, the Amethyst Empress, to take power over the paradisaical Great Empire of the Dawn, the Bloodstone Emperor begins worshipping a black stone and marked his rule with mass murder and enslavement, feasting on the flesh of man, conducting mass torture and practicing dark magic. So atrocious is the mass sin at the tyrant's hands that the benevolent Goddess, the Maiden-Made-of-Light and ancestor to the Bloodstone Emperor himself, leaves the world in peril to eradicate the latter's empire, electing to risk the death of all rather than have it suffer under his monstrous excesses.

Other Continuities

Game of Thrones & Histories & Lore

• King Joffrey I Baratheon graduates from a spoiled prince to a "vicious idiot" of a ruler following the death of his supposed father Robert. Having once tried to kill his fiancée Sansa Stark's younger sister and lowborn friend for standing up to him, Joffrey swiftly orders the execution of Eddard Stark, Lord of the North and father to Sansa, even knowing it will mean war. Throwing aside all pretense of charm, Joffrey also begins regularly tormenting his captive bride-to-be, forcing Sansa to gaze at the severed head of her father while having his Kingsguard beat her at his leisure. A whimsical sadist, Joffrey responds to a bard's taunting song by ordering him mutilated and when his rule drives starving peasants into accosting him, orders them all be put to death in a bloody riot. Lusting at the mere thought of violence, Joffrey forces one prostitute bought for him to beat another, later restraining and shooting the survivor to death for his own amusement. Not even family is safe from his insanity, with Joffrey threatening to kill his mother, ordering his uncle assassinated, and having all of Robert's bastard children—including babies—murdered to secure his false claim to the throne. A blossoming teenage psychopath even without the years of most of Westeros's worst behind him, Joffrey's short rule is marked by such cruelty he is said to have possibly grown to surpass the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen for sheer depravity.

• Petyr Baelish, aka "Littlefinger", is a manipulative, self-serving man who believes that "chaos is a ladder", and orchestrates a variety of Westeros's misfortunes to climb to the top. Owning and operating a brothel whose workers he abuses, mistreats, and even mutilates to suit his clients' desires, Baelish callously has any who cross him sent off to be butchered, notably handing off Ros to be tortured to death by Joffrey Baratheon. Out of both ambition and a petty desire to possess the hand of Catelyn Stark, Baelish kick-starts the War of the Five Kings by seducing Lysa Arryn into murdering her husband while Baelish stages an assassination attempt on Catelyn's crippled son, turns kingdoms against one another, and personally arranges the death of Catelyn's current husband Eddard "Ned" Stark and many of his men. Profiting off the massive, bloody war that costs thousands of lives across Westeros, Baelish murders Lysa and shifts his lustful attentions from Catelyn to her young daughter Sansa, psychologically abusing the girl before sending her off to be raped and tortured so as to later "save" her from her fate and convince her to team with him in wiping out her own family. His scheming leading to unfathomable death and devastation through the kingdoms and empowering monsters like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton/Snow, Baelish is willing to doom countless lives—even those of his apparent loved ones—so long as it brought himself good fortune, proudly boastful that the climb to power for power's sake is the only thing that truly matters to him.

• Ser Gregor Clegane, "the Mountain that Rides" of House Clegane, is Westeros's most dreaded knight, in service to Lord Tywin Lannister. An ill-tempered sadist since childhood, Gregor once burned his brother Sandor's face for playing with his toy to the point of gruesome disfiguring. When Gregor later loses a jousting match in a tournament, he wrathfully decapitates his own horse before storming the crowd, trying to kill the man who beat him and any who stand in his way. Occupying Harrenhal fortress under Tywin, Gregor has his sadistic minion the Tickler torture prisoners to death for information and after losing Harrenhal, orders the hundreds of remaining captives be put to death. Recruited to fight for the crown in Tyrion's Trial by Combat, Gregor is found perfecting his sword skills by violently butchering more prisoners in one-sided "duels". Battling Prince Oberyn Martell, Oberyn tries to force Gregor to confess to having raped and murdered his sister Elia, as well as her children, something Gregor outright boasts of as he shoves his thumbs through the prince's eyes before squeezing his head until it explodes.

• Lord Walder Frey, head of House Frey, after a few episodes of pretension as nothing but a doddering old pervert, proves his true evil when he conceives of the Red Wedding. For the sake of getting back at Lord Robb Stark for not honoring his wedding vow, Frey has Robb, his pregnant wife, his mother, hundreds of his bannermen, and even Robb's direwolf Grey Wind massacred in one of the most devastating acts of treachery Westeros ever sees. When his wife is taken hostage, Walder throws her away and remarks "I'll find another." Spending the rest of his life rubbing his hands over the power he backstabbed his way into, Lord Walder violates every single value even the cutthroat world of Westeros upholds.

• Craster, a vicious Wildling and shaky Night's Watch ally, is given a self-righteous demeanor. Abusing the women of his isolated keep, Craster regularly rapes them, even keeping any girls born as a result to add to his dozens of victims, while leaving any infant boys born to be taken by the White Walkers. Incensed by the mere implication of debauchery, Craster declares himself a "godly man" and threatens to kill any of the Night's Watch brothers who dare question his way of life.

• Ramsay Bolton/Snow, the bastard son of Lord Roose Bolton and the most vicious member of House Bolton, is a sadist with a knack for torture and flaying others alive. After capturing Winterfell, Ramsay proceeded to play twisted games with the captive Theon Greyjoy, pretending to be an Ironborn agent who comes to save Theon—killing his own men to keep up the ruse—and culminating in Ramsay bringing Theon to the Dreadfort and subjecting him to prolonged, hideous torture, including flaying bits of him and castrating him. All that remains of Theon afterwards is a broken, obedient shell whom Ramsay dubs "Reek." In his spare time, Ramsay and his equally psychotic lover Myranda release girls into the woods to hunt them for sport, also using the girls to feed Ramsay's savage hounds. When Ramsay makes Theon negotiate a surrender with other Ironborn, Ramsay guarantees their safety, only to have them flayed alive and displayed as gruesome trophies. After marrying Sansa Stark, Ramsay rapes her on the wedding night and continues to sexually and physically abuse her throughout the rest of the marriage. Ramsay cements his rule over his hold by murdering Roose and having his hounds eat his infant brother and stepmother. When he finally engages the Northern armies, Ramsay is apathetic to the death of his own men and shoots the preteen Rickon Stark dead—moments before he reaches Jon Snow. With few matching his pointless savagery, Ramsay Snow exemplified every negative stereotype about bastards in Westeros.

• Karl Tanner is a former assassin and sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Taking over Craster's Keep in a mutiny, Karl has his Lord Commander Jeor Mormont killed to drink wine from his skull while allowing his men to rape and abuse Craster's daughter-wives as they see fit. Having the only male child left to the cold, when Bran Stark and his group arrive Karl plans to torment and kill them all, even trying to force himself on the teenage Meera while forcing her brother to watch.

• King Aerys II Targaryen, aka the Mad King, grew into a paranoid pyromaniac and one of the worst of his family's dynasty. Terrified of any threats to his power, Aerys begins murdering or torturing those who incense him, having one man's tongue torn out for making a joke. Becoming obsessed with the destructive wildfire, Aerys uses it to burn entire cities when he deems them to house traitors, even inviting a Northern lord to the capital before burning him alive when Aerys's son is accused of kidnapping the lord's daughter. His tyranny causing a massive rebellion, Aerys goes to war hoping to exterminate all Houses who oppose him, and eventually plans to burn all of King's Landing and his own half-a-million citizens within to kill his attacking enemies.

• Euron Greyjoy was banished from the Iron Islands after having burned the Lannisport fleet. Following the "Old Way" on the high seas, Euron took slaves by the thousands to trade or for sex, having any sailors who fought back tortured to death. At one point, Euron tore the tongues out of his own entire crew for interrupting his thoughts, despite them just having saved his life. Returning to murder his brother Balon and claim the Salt Throne, Euron joins Queen Cersei Lannister in a war to conquer Westeros, later having a defeated enemy fleet mutilated while planning to spread his pillaging worldwide.

• King Maegor I Targaryen, aka "Maegor the Cruel", is one of the most brutal rulers to ever sit on the Iron Throne. Usurping his own nephew and then killing him in battle, Maegor would go on to usher in a reign of callous tyranny. His many atrocities include executing anyone who expresses an opinion he doesn't like; burning down a Sept with many people inside; starting a campaign across the Riverlands, the Westerlands, and the Reach which claims the lives of thousands of innocent people for him to collect their skulls and pass off as members of the Faith Militant; forcibly marrying three women who had been widowed because of the wars he had waged; executing his second wife and every single member of her family when she gives birth to a deformed and stillborn baby; slaughtering all the builders who had constructed the Red Keep to keep its secret passages for himself and, allegedly, having a hidden dungeon to brutally torture prisoners. Maegor's actions ravage the realm so badly, that his cruelty would be remembered even hundreds of years after his death.

Video Games

• 2012 game: Valarr Hill, bastard brother to Alester Sarwyck of Riverspring, is the main villain of the game. A member of Queen Cersei's guard hunting for the pregnant mother of one of King Robert's bastards named Jeyne, Valarr frames his and Alester's younger brother for the death of their father and later tries to have him assassinated. Revealed as the man who killed hero Mors's family on Lord Tywin's orders, Valarr also raped Mors's daughter, a fact he taunts him about when they meet in trial by combat. Valarr intends to force his own half-sister into marriage and rape her, before cheating in the duel by using dark magic to kill Mors and having all the witnesses massacred before murdering his and Alester's sister; hunting down Jeyne, killing her; and having the lord defending her and his men massacred. Valarr breaks every taboo Westeros has, from kinslaying, rape, violating guest right and more, caring for nothing but his own ascent to further heights.

• Telltale Games Series: Ramsay Snow is the representative in the North for the as-yet-unseen Roose Bolton, orchestrating the conflict between the Forresters and Whitehills for profit and enjoyment. Ramsay is introduced while flaying a man alive for recreation, lamenting that the result is "not [his] best work". After entering the Forresters' estate by force, he tries to take Talia hostage with clear lascivious intent before pragmatically settling on her brother instead, and murders the teenage Ethan on a whim. He later returns to "break" Rodrik by forcing him to witness his torture (and eventual murder) of Rodrik's friend Arthur. He later pits the Forresters and Whitehills against each other in a war of annihilation, passing up potential profit for the sake of a bloody spectacle. A sadist who lives only to relish the suffering he inflicts on others, Ramsay is feared and loathed throughout the North.

In other words, the most evil characters from the books are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Rorge, Craster, Euron, Maegor, Tyanna, Dalton Greyjoy, Qhored Hoare, the two Betrayers (Hugh and Ulf) and the Bloodstone Emperor.

The most evil from the TV series and the Histories & Lore animated videos (which are part of the TV show canon) are Joffrey, Gregor, Ramsay, Walder, Craster, Euron. Karl Tanner, Aerys, Littlefinger and Maegor.

The most evil from video games are Valarr Hill and Ramsay (Telltale version).

As you can see, no version is of Cersei is listed among the most evil characters of the franchise because she simply doesn't meet the criteria. This means that her evil is really exaggerated by the whole fandom and she gets far more hatred than she deserves for some reason even though she has many redeeming qualities and excuses for her actions. So, why is she so hated by the fandom even though she was intended to be sympathetic?

First of all, Cersei hardly has any redeemable qualities. Cersei is not only selfish, cruel, manipulative, and petty, but she also fails to be a competent antagonist, which makes each of her acts even more irritating. As for the Evil List, it simply does not matter. Characters don't invoke feelings in the readers because of their morality and such; they invoke feelings due to their impact. Cersei might be a better person than Gregor Clegane; however, while Gregor's worst cruelties are only hearsay and are towards secondary characters in the books, Cersei's are alive on the page and are directed towards the protagonists. This is actually true in RL too. You don't hate some murderer you see on the news with the same intensity you hate an abusive or even cheating spouse. 

[csuszka1948]

Yes, Cersei is not morally worse than Tywin. However, the fact that she makes so many mistakes and seems thoroughly incompetent is what makes her more hated. In addition, she has her own POV where she comes off as quite delusional which doesn't help.

Tywin isn't a better person, but a better, 'more respectable' villain despite his blind spots (his children) and flaws (reliance on excessive violence). He might be able to create a long-lasting peace which is better for the people than the chaos which Cersei causes.

 

Cersei's body count is larger than her father's. If she was willing to give at least 1 black haired kid to Robert - just to spite the prophecy you claim she is so afraid of - she would probably never been discovered. Her actions would have caused the downfall of her entire family if not for the intervention of Lysa and Littlefinger.

If she has raised her kids just slightly better, there wouldn't be Wo5k, because Joffrey wouldn't order Ned Stark executed. If she tried to make friends with Renly (or nobles from the Vale, Stormlands at court) who was the youngest brother of Robert (so not someone who is likely to usurp his children's inheritance) and ruler of the Stormlands instead of antagonizing her, he would have likely never rebelled and backed him over Stannis.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Alester Florent]

50 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

In both versions he is responsible for the War of the Five Kings which gives him one of the single highest body counts out of anyone in the entire series which easily puts him above the heinous standard.

But he's not solely responsible. He helps arrange a situation where other people start the war. But to blame him entirely for the war is to give him too much credit as a mastermind. There are a lot of people responsible for starting the war, and, yes, LF helped set up the pieces but ultimately those people all made their own choices to act as they did: Tywin, Cat, Ned, Renly, Stannis, Robb, Joffrey and, yes, Cersei.

In any case I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't think anyone in this thread is going to claim Littlefinger is anything other than an awful person. But his being awful doesn't make Cersei any better.

50 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Cersei simply not wanting a child from a man who repeatedly rapes her is laughable and is extremely SEXIST.

I mean it's not just that, is it? I'm not going to get into the rape thing, as I've said before, because I gather there's a soft rule not to talk about that stuff in detail, and for good reason. But, and again, not for the first time, two things here: Firstly, her infidelity to Robert started before any of the abuse. She had sex with Jaime on her wedding day, for goodness' sake. Secondly, we can give her a free pass on the incest and even killing Robert, complete revenge for his abuse of her, and she would still be an absolutely appalling person.

50 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

We normally don't count actions that are unintentional and Cersei's impact on starting the War of the Five is too unintentional to qualify as a "crime", so according to our standards, it doesn't count to her rapsheet.

It's absolutely intentional. First, she launches a coup against Ned, the lawful regent, which provokes a rebellion in the North, and everyone expects the Vale to respond too. She provokes Stannis and Renly into rising up against the crown in turn. Then she insists that Joffrey come into his full power immediately, despite his being underage, and a complete psychopath, which leads to the execution of Ned (thus escalating the war) and all the various atrocities of Joffrey's rule which she makes no effort to restrain despite being the only person with any reliable influence over him.

Maybe it's not intentional. Maybe, even though everyone else can see the inevitable consequences of her actions, and some of them tell her so, she's just that stupid.

50 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Essentially, all she does is kill her husband who raped her, kill Ned's men, kill 2 of Robert's bastards, send 4 people to Qyburn, torture the Blue Bard and try to frame Margaery for adultery and that' she extent of her rapsheet of crimes and as you can see, she doesn't really harm that many people. 

Leaving aside the "all she does..." followed by a list of horrific crimes...

It's not a numbers game. Ramsay doesn't actually directly harm that many people. We view him as a monster because of his exceptional cruelty and his complete lack of remorse. That is the same reason people dislike Cersei. Her (worst) crimes are exceptionally cruel, directed entirely against people she knows to be innocent, and despite her token acknowledgement that it's a bit unpleasant she doesn't show enough remorse to, you know, stop doing it.

But in any case this is really the tip of the iceberg. Her bounty on Tyrion's head led to the deaths of many innocent dwarfs. She actively refuses to take any action to help defend the Shield Islands, which enables Euron. She reneges on the debt to the Iron Bank, which might as well be a declaration of war on Braavos. She reinstates the Faith Militant, which is basically lighting a touchpaper for a civil war.

Maybe she didn't see any of these consequences coming, to the extent that incompetence can be counted as a defence. But the reasons for her doing this stuff are also important. None of it is because she thinks it's necessary or good for the realm. It's all out of spite. All of it.

50 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 That's why when we judge characters by morality, there needs to be a strict set of criteria because most people be like "muh, I hate Cersai so I am going to rank as high as possible and also assign the atrocities Tywin commited to make her look even worse".

The only person applying any kind of "ranking" here is you.

[csuszka1948]

Also, why Cersei cheating on Robert doesn't count? 

1) She was always going to cheat on him, regardless of how good husband he is. She fucked with Jaime on the day of her wedding! She basically entered their marriage in bad faith.

2) It is hugely irresponsible and selfish. If she is discovered (and this might have happened much earlier if Varys was loyal to Robert) , she is going to get herself killed, her children's paternity will be in doubt and it is likely to cause a war which claims tens of thousands of deaths!

Yes, it's unfair and sexist, but that's what she signed up for when she became queen! You are treating this as if she had no other choice, when Jaime would have gladly run away with her and with her wealth and Jaime's protection they could have lived a relatively comfortable life.

She chose to become queen for the sake of power and there are certain duties and responsibilities which come with this choice, but she refused to carry them out. 

Other points;

1) She also raised Joffrey horribly - when again, this would be one of her most important duties and pathways to achieve actual political power - and mostly ignored her other two children. Ned, Stannis and Jon Arryn wouldn't have been so quick to jump to conclusions if Joffrey was a decent kid (even just as decent as Jaime was at his age).

2) You are treating her offer to Ned as a gesture which he should be thankful for, when in fact it was a political move which benefitted her - if Ned had accepted her offer (meaning that he accepts that there will be no justice for Bran's crippling and assassination attempt, his daughters will be kept as hostages and the Lannisters can freely flaunt the rules of society) Joffrey wouldn't be opposed by the North. Ned's offer to Cersei wasn't such a move - it was completely selfless guided by his desire to avoid murdering children.

3) You say she doesn't harm that many people directly, which is true. However, you ignore that this only happens because her father plays the leading role due to the sexism of the society.

In her thoughts there is nothing indicating that she would conduct a war differently from him and wouldn't be ready to burn down villages and rape and kill smallfolk for 'opposing her' (more precisely, their liege lords opposing her) - in fact, we see her doing this in small scale in the Red Keep.

Being evil is not just about the number of people you ordered to kill, but about the reasoning behind it - that's why Ramsay is a monster while Dany is not-, and in case of Cersei that usually happens to be simple malice.

Edited April 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

I also think that this entire characterization of people as 'complete monsters', 'nearly complete evil' etc. is stupid.

The people who are responsible for the biggest atrocities in human history, like Hitler or Stalin are not 'complete monsters' - they weren't out to hurt people for shits and giggles, they truly believed that they cause is righteous and would have been willing to die for it or sacrifice millions of people for it without remorse, and that's what made them so dangerous. Out of the ASOIAF characters I think Stannis (+maybe post-ADWD Dany) has the most potential to become such a leader if he truly became convinced that he is Azor Ahai and (through a magic spectacle or having the charisma he lacks in canon) managed to get enough people to follow him.

 

Cersei would be a more run-of-the-mill villain in our world, who is not competent enough to get away with her actions for long despite daddy's money.

Edited April 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Craving Peaches]

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

In both versions he is responsible for the War of the Five Kings which gives him one of the single highest body counts out of anyone in the entire series which easily puts him above the heinous standard

But he is certainly not the only person to blame. Varys played a part, and of course Cersei made it all possible in the first place. So if Littlefinger is responsible for that body count then so is Cersei.

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

laughable and is extremely SEXIST

What's laughable is your ridiculous argument that Littlefinger is responsible for the War, but Cersei, the person whose conduct enabled it in the first place, somehow should bare none of the blame because of 'sexism'. I am not even talking about the cheating because the cheating on it's own wasn't going to start a war and wasn't going to be discovered, it is the passing off children as legitimate. Cersei was never forced to have children with Jaime at any point. She chose to, she's a fully grown educated woman, she knew the risks and ran with them. Your 'analysis' robs Cersei of all agency she has an acts like she is a poor, abused woman who could not help but cheat and pass bastards off as legitimate, which is insulting because not only does it ignore the text at multiple points (Cersei's cheating is not in response to Robert's abuse since she carries on her affair with Jaime before he does anything), there are also arguably sexist overtones to it because it presumes Cersei was so weak minded she just had to cheat on Robert, thereby taking a very stereotypical view of what women do in response to trauma, making Cersei seem like a typical frail and hysterical woman, and again ignoring that Cersei had more options. Another thing that is sexist is the claim that everything Cersei does is only for her children, as if she can't have any other goals in life other than keeping her children safe, because if she did anything for other motives it would be bad and selfish. You are overly focused on seeing Cersei as a victim and ignore she was also abusive in the relationship, ignore that no, she doesn't do everything for her children, claim that people who oppose your argument only do so because of sexism, arguing based on emotion or because Cersei is against the Starks.

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

kill 2 of Robert's bastard

She kills more than two.

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

and as you can see, she doesn't really harm that many people. 

It is not about the sheer number of people that makes her so vile to me, it is the reason she does it for, the way that they are harmed, and the fact that her victims are innocent newborn babies and harmless innocent people who thought she was their friend. And I think she harms more than you say.

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

You probably even think that Hitler is a better person than Cersei because he "knows how to rule" just like Tywin, right

What a stupid argument. You have yet again missed the point of what everyone is saying but since you get annoyed when people question something that you have already argued I am not going to bother again to point out what is wrong with this. You can read over previous responses and do that yourself.

10 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

 I am sorry, but I do think there is a lot of sexism in how Cersei is judged because women who are not always pure and moral tend to be judged much more harshly than men who do much worse

Well I haven't seen any here. And as I have already said, I don't care about the cheating. Fraud, incest, murder of infants, torture are all much worse and they are the reason why I think Cersei is a horrible person. Nothing to do with sexism at all. And no, she wasn't forced to do any of those things because of sexism.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

I'm reluctant to call it the elephant in the room, since it's been pointed out by multiple people, but the OP seems intent on ignoring it, so it bears repeating:

People's likes and dislikes are not dictated by the moral virtue of the characters. There's usually some correlation, and if anyone said that Gregor Clegane was their favourite character then I think some searching questions should be asked, but fortunately nobody is. In general, flawed heroes are more interesting (and therefore likeable) than perfect ones, and likewise, villains who are perhaps less outright evil but really obnoxious are often less hateable than objectively worse villains who carry it off with a bit of style.

If you were to ask me who I think the most virtuous characters in the series are, I'd give you Brienne, Ned, Beric, Septon Meribald, etc. But if you ask me who my favourite characters are, I'll give you Renly, Jaime, Dolorous Edd, Ser Pounce, maybe Wyman Manderly, etc.

Likewise, if you were to ask me for a list of the most morally depraved characters in the series are, there might be 25 on the list above Cersei. (I doubt it, and not only because every time the OP comes up with an extensive list it includes very minor, possibly mythical, historic characters, but anyway). But if you ask me who I dislike most, then Cersei will be much higher on the list, because she's a major, indeed, a regular PoV, character, and that means her unattractive qualities are front and centre and therefore occupy much more of the attention than do, say, Rorge's.

The question was "Why do people hate Cersei so much?" I think that question has been answered thoroughly.

[SeanF]

Speaking personally, I enjoy Cersei's chapters a great deal.  She has a fine (if nasty) sense of humour, and her appalling personality and behaviour are a source of endless amusement.

So I don't actually hate her as a character.

Occasionally, I come close to sympathising with her, as when she recalls her love for Rhaegar, and I found the Walk of Shame a horrible read.  But, then she goes and spoils it all by doing something like having innocent women vivisected, or the Blue Bard's teeth wrenched out. 

The fact that she feels a bit bad about torture is in no way a mitigation of her cruel, spiteful, selfish, and ultimately self-defeating, behaviour.