UK Politics: Bully for you

[Heartofice]

What is even the benefit of thinking of racism as some sort of hierarchy? Isn't all racism bad? If you are racist to one group is it kind of ok then because they are lower down the hierarchy? Seems a particularly stupid way of thinking of things. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Heartofice

[Spockydog]

As a Scot living in London for over forty years, I have been subjected to several instances of low-level, mainly verbal, racism throughout my life.

But I am still a white man, with plenty of privilege. And my experiences simply cannot be compared to those of black and brown people who have been subjected to the most appalling physical and mental abuse due to their skin colour. 

So don't tell me there is no hierarchy of racism in this country. Because there most definitely is. 

[Heartofice]

Being singled out for being Scottish is xenophobia isn't it or did the definition of racism change again in the last 10 minutes. I know its a rapidly moving target but still.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

So there's no hierarchy of racism in the UK?

 

So racism against blond blue eyed Scots is okay? Just wanting to make sure, you know where you might end up with your argument.

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

I think it was this, slightly more nuanced point, that Abbot was desperately flailing for.

 

Giving Abbotts career. One of her main points has always been black empowerment fighting racism black people in the UK are subjected to. Which is important. But I think she simply lost sight of other victims of racism in her letter. 

Personally, I think she has become more of a political liability, and this is a good opportunity to get rid off her. It's not her first gaffe in recent years, during the last GE there was this infamous Labour wanting to put more coppers on the street how much is it gonna cost episode, and post election the 50 lost Labour seats moments. She has become a bit of a laughing stock politically. Then she was also one of the signatories of this letter blaming NATO for the Russian invasion, that were forced to withdraw their signatures or lose the whip. 

Ofc, being close to Corbyn and the whole Labour systemic anti-semitism scandal under his watch is not helping her now either. So her producing that letter is really mindbogglingly stupid.

Is it convenient to toss her under the proverbial bus? Yes. However, defending her isn't really a hill I'd pick to die on. 

[Spockydog]

10 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So racism against blond blue eyed Scots is okay? Just wanting to make sure, you know where you might end up with your argument

 

No. Of course all racism is bad. FFS. But some is more damaging than others.

Or do you disagree with this?

Do you think the impact of me being told to fuck off back to Scotland by some piss head on the tube is the same as having your house burnt down by the National Front? 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Spockydog

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

No. Of course all racism is bad. FFS. But some is more damaging than others.

Or do you disagree with this?

Do you think the impact of me being told to fuck off back to Scotland on the tube is the same as having your house burnt down by the National Front? 

Which group has experience with that sort of discrimination... Apparently not Jews. 

This is where your defense of her sorta falls apart IMHO. I don't think she was malicious, but like reeeeeeally stupid.

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

 

Do you think the impact of me being told to fuck off back to Scotland on the tube is the same as having your house burnt down by the National Front? 

I think if your house was burnt down by the NF that would just as bad as if they did it to anyone else. Trying to say some people are less worthy of sympathy than others is a very dangerous position to sit in.

[Spockydog]

So why did Starmer omit the Roma, Gypsy and Traveller communities from his statement rebuking Abbot this morning? Are those people not worthy of his defence? I mean, right there, he's kind of proved her point that there is some hierarchy. 

And look, I'm not defending Abbot. I'm not saying that it's okay to have any kind of hierarchy of racism. Not at all. But to deny it actually exists, in our day-to-day, practical lives, is really not helpful. 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

Starmer explicitly denied the concept of hierarchical racism this morning. I wonder why. 

Labour accused of still not engaging with ‘hierarchy of racism’ claims

Labour has been accused of still not fully engaging with claims that anti-black racism and Islamophobia were not taken as seriously as antisemitism by the senior lawyer who carried out a report into the party’s culture.

Martin Forde KC, who was commissioned by Keir Starmer to investigate allegations of bullying, racism and sexism, expressed concern about the party enabling a “hierarchy” of racism.

Last summer Forde published his 139-page report that accused Labour of “in effect operating a hierarchy of racism or of discrimination”. Responding to the inquiry at the time, a Labour party spokesperson said the report detailed “a party that was out of control”.

Forde had urged the party to implement 165 recommendations, many of which the party says it has put in place. But Forde claims Labour’s lack of debate and engagement over his findings indicates wider issues.

[mormont]

The idea that there is a heirarchy of racism is a very dangerous one, and it should never be confused with the idea that some racist incidents are more serious than others, or that not all racism looks alike or has a similar history. Anti-Semitism has a different history and has manifested differently than, say, racism against Roma or racism against Afro-Caribbeans in the UK. That is not at all the same as saying they exist in a heirarchy.

[polishgenius]

 

lmao

[Raja]

'doing it in a more funky way this time'

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Is the blond haired, blue-eyed Tywin subjected to the same 'on sight' racism as an African refugee arriving on a cross channel boat? No, of course he isn't. In fact, Tywin has told us many times that strangers usually have no idea he is Jewish. So if Ty were to hook up with a white Irishman and a black African to travel the world, on their travels, he would definitely be subjected to less overt racism than his African counterpart.

Not sure how I got dragged into this, but the above is true and it doesn't require travel. When I was 16/17 I went to the mall with one of my teammates who is black. We took his dad's sports car and on the way back he let me drive it. I got us pulled over and the cops asked him to get out of the car. We ultimately got away unscathed, but that they would target him when I was the one fucking around says everything. 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The idea that there is a heirarchy of racism is a very dangerous one, and it should never be confused with the idea that some racist incidents are more serious than others, or that not all racism looks alike or has a similar history. Anti-Semitism has a different history and has manifested differently than, say, racism against Roma or racism against Afro-Caribbeans in the UK. That is not at all the same as saying they exist in a heirarchy.

I dunno, man. It sounds very much to me that what you are describing is, in fact, a hierarchy. Or am I just really confused, and you aren't actually saying that not all racism is the same?

And if this is essentially just a semantic argument, if not hierarchical, how would you succinctly describe the phenomenon discussed above?

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Spockydog

[Heartofice]

The only reason to talk about Hierarchies of Racism is so you can say that Jews don’t count. It’s really as simple as that.

Where do mixed race people sit in this hierarchy? If I’m half white can I only experience 50% racism? If they burn down my house is it really not all that bad? 
 

You could just pull the whole idea apart forever 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Heartofice

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I think there is  not a heirarcy in general.  But there is in acts and behaviour caused/sparked by racism.

 

I hate X group of people is the same bad level no matter who the group is.

 

What I do because I hate X group of people has mulitple levels from feeling a bit off to Murdering.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Pebble thats Stubby

[polishgenius]

Hierarchies of racism is a terrible concept because what  sort of racist action one group or another might expect to receive is so obviously dependent on both time and place. Like, yes, sure, a Jewish person walking around in America or Europe, now, is less likely to face open abuse than someone black or Asian, but that isn't necessarily true everywhere in the world and it certainly wasn't true 80 years ago. 

And you could argue that, well, we're talking about Britain, now, except that Abbott went out of her way to make sure we knew that she meant no, always and everywhere. 

 

 

 

[Heartofice]

Even hierarchies of racism in regards to the Labour Party is silly, complaining that they are spending too much effort talking about anti semitism rather than islamaphobia, I mean, of course they are going to do that given so many in the party are openly anti semitic and don’t have any real issue with it at all, nor can they understand the fuss.

The problem isn’t that Abbot said what she said, it’s that a lot of people agree with her and it’s not an uncommon point of view on the left.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

I dunno, man. It sounds very much to me that what you are describing is, in fact, a hierarchy. Or am I just really confused, and you aren't actually saying that not all racism is the same?

You're not reading carefully.

Heirarchies of racism suggest that one type of racism is inherently worse than another. Not that one incident of racism can be worse than another: and not that types of racism have different histories and manifestations. But that identical incidents of racism directed to two different people can be better or worse than the other. That's what it means to say there are heirarchies of racism. And where it inevitably leads is making excuses for some sorts of racism.

I have had this argument made by those on the hard left, to my face. It goes to some bad places. Racism is most dangerous when people feel like they have some sort of justification for why it's not really bad racism. Don't ever go down that road.

[Raja]

lol rishi