NBA - Rochambeau Playoffs

[BigFatCoward]

Really hoping for a denver v philly final, my guess is over 4-7 games Jokic puts to bed any arguments about who is the better player. He's so fucking smart and watchable. 

[Proudfeet]

Is Simmons popular? Content aside, I can't stand his accent. If I recall correctly, he has this annoying drawl that is incredibly frustrating.

Anyway, wonder what options the Suns have. Do they just try again with the same core or do they try and trade Paul and/or Ayton? Don't think they have any draft picks left after getting KD, and they probably don't have any cap space either. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Still an amazing painting:

 

[David Selig]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Has anyone fallen more in the last year than him? Luka's team sucked, but I don't think anyone has him outside of their current top five. Tatum looked for a moment like he could be the second best player in the league (no one is touching Giannis right now), but he could possibly slip to the back of the top 10 in short order.

Tatum was never anywhere near Jokic or Giannis as a player.

And Jokic is clearly the best player in the league currently by some margin.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

56 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Tatum was never anywhere near Jokic or Giannis as a player.

And Jokic is clearly the best player in the league currently by some margin.

Nah, Giannis still is. Give him Murray instead of Middleton and see what happens.

And Tatum has absolutely been talked about as a truly elite player. If the Celtics didn't blow it last year he might have entered the year with people arguing that he's the best player.

But Joker can make it a conversation if he gets his chip.

[baxus]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Nah, Giannis still is. Give him Murray instead of Middleton and see what happens.

Give him Murray injured for the season instead of Middleton and see what happens.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, baxus said:

Give him Murray injured for the season instead of Middleton and see what happens.  

Middleton was hurt all year.

Look, I've come around on Joker being a top three player, but I'm just going to lean towards the guy who is the better defender. Embiid shredded him earlier this year when they were 1 on 1. And neither can keep pace with Giannis. Joker might be the number one overall pick in a bar fight though from the NBA. 

[David Selig]

Murray is not that great. He has never been an all-star and he does very little at a high level except streaky shooting. When he gets hot, he's really dangerous, but he is also prone to shooting his team out of games. Defensively he's subpar and as a playmaker he's not that good either. Jrue Holiday and healthy Middleton are just as good as him if not better.

Sure, Embiid, Giannis and AD are much better defensively than Jokic, but the gap on the other end in Jokic's favour is bigger because Jokic is on a completely different level than anyone else in the league offensively right now and that's been the case all season. 124 ORTG during the regular season, 122 ORTG during the playoffs, incredible scoring efficiency on a high volume and he is by far the best passer in the league - this dwarfs anything other top players achieve on this end.

Edited May 12, 2023 by David Selig

[Proudfeet]

That's the thing isn't it? Everyone is a hero when they make their shots and deadweight when they don't. 

As far as Murray not being an all-star, well, competition is tight and he's been injured or working his way back to form for the past three years. It's not really a knock on him.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

And Jokic is clearly the best player in the league currently by some margin.

Nope. As stated above, that title goes to Giannis. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Jrue Holiday and healthy Middleton are just as good as him if not better.

The "he's never been an All-Star" line is not that useful in this specific case. Jamal Crawford never was. Murray gets buckets and can get you 50 if you need it and Joker needs a teammate like that. I've always argued he can be your best player on a great team, but he needs a pure scorer to work with to maximize the pick and roll game. Give him someone like that and a few options to kick out to and there's no way to defend it. Just a matter if shots drop or not.

Quote

Sure, Embiid, Giannis and AD are much better defensively than Jokic, but the gap on the other end in Jokic's favour is bigger because Jokic is on a completely different level than anyone else in the league offensively right now and that's been the case all season. 124 ORTG during the regular season, 122 ORTG during the playoffs, incredible scoring efficiency on a high volume and he is by far the best passer in the league - this dwarfs anything other top players achieve on this end.

I think with Joker you need to sidebar some of the advanced metrics. He rates as being a better defender than Giannis and Embiid and we all know that's a joke. He has the second best PER ever for example. No one talks about him like he's a top 10 player ever though (but if he wins a chip, we'll see, this year is as open as any).

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

If the Celtics didn't blow it last year he might have entered the year with people arguing that he's the best player.

I mean, first of all this is conditional on something that didn't happen, and second of all it does not appear most people thought of him that way based on the preseason lists I already cited.  He came into the season as probably a consensus 5 to 8 range, and I think he still is.  Saying there was a huge drop off seems to be based on your perception that many people didn't share to begin with.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, first of all this is conditional on something that didn't happen, and second of all it does not appear most people thought of him that way based on the preseason lists I already cited.  He came into the season as probably a consensus 5 to 8 range, and I think he still is.  Saying there was a huge drop off seems to be based on your perception that many people didn't share to begin with.

But that's how all this works. A slight change in events and our perception becomes different. If Jordan goes 5-1 in the Finals his case as best player ever is shattered. Likewise, if Tatum wins it for the Celtics last year and doesn't play like shit a bunch in the playoffs he might have an argument to pass Giannis as the best player in the league. 

Anyways, you posted a few different ranks people had. Third was one of them and going into the season that's where I would have had him if I'm picking someone to build around. The people I trust to talk about the sport, and Bill Simmons would not make my top 50, viewed him similarly. And since then he's put up numbers, but I can't say he's been anywhere near as good as I thought he'd be. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[David Selig]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But that's how all this works. A slight change in events and our perception becomes different. If Jordan goes 5-1 in the Finals his case as best player ever is shattered.

I really disagree with this mentality which is way too prevalent in the NBA discussions. It's a team sport at the end of the day (despite the NBA marketing best effort toconvince everyone that only superstars matter). Jordan could have played the exact same way in his Finals and ended up with 5-1 record if his teammates have played worse or the opponents have shot better on plays he wasn't the one defneding them, etc. WHy would this shatter his case as best player ever?

Besides, the whole "Jordan has a perfect record in the FInals hence he is the best" is silly reasoning anyway. He lost in the playoffs plenty of times. Why is losing in the first round or in the conference finals somehow better?

Edited May 12, 2023 by David Selig

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Likewise, if Tatum wins it for the Celtics last year

Ok.  But, ya know, he didn't.  Which is why this is a very weird argument to make.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, David Selig said:

I really disagree with this mentality which is way too prevalent in the NBA discussions.

Yeah, agreed.  The notion that if Jordan lost one of his finals his argument for GOAT is "shattered" frankly isn't worthy of a response.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, David Selig said:

I really disagree with this mentality which is way too prevalent in the NBA discussions. It's a team sport at the end of the day (despite the NBA marketing best effort toconvince everyone that only superstars matter). Jordan could have played the exact same way in his Finals and ended up with 5-1 record if his teammates have played worse or the opponents have shot better, etc, or the refs whistled a few key calls in a different way, etc. WHy would this shatter his case as best player ever?

Besides, the whole "Jordan has a perfect record in the FInals hence he is the best" is silly reasoning anyway. He lost in the playoffs plenty of times. Why is losing in the first round or in the conference finals somehow better?

Which I've said over and over. But when you ask most fans of the sport who is the best ever they say Jordan, and when you ask why, they just say 6-0.

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Ok.  But, ya know, he didn't.  Which is why this is a very weird argument to make.

Best player on the best team that wins a championship typically buys you a lot of real estate. Getting close does too especially when you're expected to get back there and win next year. The Celtics were not a fluke. 

[baxus]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Middleton was hurt all year.

And what did this best player in the league by far do with the Bucks that season? Knocked out of the playoffs in the first round, just like Jokic was with Nuggets last season.

The point is that there's no clear-cut best player in the league now. Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are all great, pretty much universally acclaimed as best three in the league. And still, Jokic was left out of all NBA first team. Some eyebrows were raised, just like they would've been if he was in and Giannis or Embiid were out, or even if all three were in. Most importantly, none of them can win on their own, they all need teammates performing at high level for that.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, baxus said:

And still, Jokic was left out of all NBA first team. Some eyebrows were raised, just like they would've been if he was in and Giannis or Embiid were out, or even if all three were in.

No eyebrows were really "raised," that's just how it works with the current voting system.  Plenty of centers have been screwed over throughout the years -- including Embiid the last two.  Which, btw, is why they're abolishing the positions aspect next year.  From NBA.com:

Quote

But there have been notable exceptions — often involving centers, who are vying for just the one All-NBA first-team spot instead of the two that have been available to guards and forwards.

Embiid was second in the MVP race but only second-team All-NBA in the most recent two seasons. Other examples:

1994-95, MVP David Robinson got the first-team nod and runner-up Shaquille O’Neal wound up as the second-team center pick.

1993-94, Hakeem Olajuwon won MVP and was first-team at center, while Robinson was No. 2 in the MVP race and on the second team.

1976-77, Bill Walton was No. 2 in the MVP race, then second-team All-NBA behind MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

1975-76, Bob McAdoo was second in the MVP race and didn’t even make All-NBA, with the center spots that season going to MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and third-place finisher Dave Cowens.

There have also been some split votes, albeit none under the current voting methods, where the MVP somehow didn’t make the All-NBA first team. It happened to Bill Russell in 1958, 1961 and 1962, and then to Cowens in 1973.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, baxus said:

And what did this best player in the league by far do with the Bucks that season? Knocked out of the playoffs in the first round, just like Jokic was with Nuggets last season.

Well he ran into the guy that complicates things.

Quote

The point is that there's no clear-cut best player in the league now. Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are all great, pretty much universally acclaimed as best three in the league. And still, Jokic was left out of all NBA first team. Some eyebrows were raised, just like they would've been if he was in and Giannis or Embiid were out, or even if all three were in. Most importantly, none of them can win on their own, they all need teammates performing at high level for that.

I think right now Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are the three best players. I did not expect Luka to be knocked out before the playoffs even started which is a black eye he's going to have to deal with. But that dude, and he is that dude, down in South Beach is coming for receipts. If the Heat win tonight the fire only grows higher.

The reason why I have Giannis ahead of the other two is because the versatility of his skillset. He's clearly the best athlete of the three and moves differently for a guy that size. Embiid protects the rim better, but Giannis is the better overall defender. No one at this point controls the offensive side better than Joker, but the defensive gap is still fairly large between him and the other two. He's worked his way into becoming okay on that end though and sometimes that's all you need from an all-time great on the other. See Curry. Likewise he doesn't have to be great both ways to have a massive impact. And so far Jokic is doing what I always wanted him to do, start at the top of the key, see if a pass makes sense and then bully his defender until he can get into the low post and get an easy shot. Idk if anyone outside of Embiid can defend that and he should be doing it every time he has the chance, which so far has been working to perfection. AD can't guard him consistently. I expect the Lakers to advance, but who knows. And if they do Joker needs to fuck him up right away because Glass is glass. And if the Warriors advance, good luck trying to defend him. Looney is solid, but not built for that and Green will get tossed aside. Old man LeBron is still nice, but Idk if he can take the beating Joker will need to give him either. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Tywin et al.