US Politics: Be Careful Out There

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, TrackerNeil said:

I've heard it said that Democrats talk about facts, while Republicans tell stories, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. Since human beings love a narrative, a story is a hell of a way to get them to listen...and to agree.

I can see the truth in that, at least as things existed before social media. Now I'm not so sure. I think the broader left: a big chunk of academics, journalists, thought leaders, celebrities, and anyone tied to a more revolutionary ideal for social justice, or at least pay lip service to it--they are telling a story, and using certain facts to tell that story, but it's a story for their particular bubble, without concerns for the practical politics of it. And for those thought leaders and academics, it also poses a problem for the integrity of their arguments, as they tend not to treat the facts with the dispassionate rigor they deserve. Vox is just one example among many of a larger problem.

Certainly Republicans are as divorced as ever from facts, though they do often know what messages will resonate with people outside of the cosmopolitan liberal bubble. Recently I think there are signs that they've chased their base so much that they've disappeared up their own asses, and no longer are able to tell stories that will help them to win elections without rigging them.

[TrackerNeil]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I can see the truth in that, at least as things existed before social media. Now I'm not so sure. I think the broader left: a big chunk of academics, journalists, thought leaders, celebrities, and anyone tied to a more revolutionary ideal for social justice, or at least pay lip service to it--they are telling a story, and using certain facts to tell that story, but it's a story for their particular bubble, without concerns for the practical politics of it. And for those thought leaders and academics, it also poses a problem for the integrity of their arguments, as they tend not to treat the facts with the dispassionate rigor they deserve. Vox is just one example among many of a larger problem.

Certainly Republicans are as divorced as ever from facts, though they do often know what messages will resonate with people outside of the cosmopolitan liberal bubble. Recently I think there are signs that they've chased their base so much that they've disappeared up their own asses, and no longer are able to tell stories that will help them to win elections without rigging them.

Hmm...I hadn't considered that, but it sounds right. Honestly, I think we'd all be better off shutting down social media for 3 hours every day, so we can all get some work done and maybe think more clearly. 

Republicas are often said to be better at messaging, and I don't know if I believe that, nor am I sure just what electoral effect messaging has on American voting patterns. Republicans are good at creating easily remembered bumper-sticker slogans, but there was no slogan ever invented that would have saved them in 2006, or 2008, or 2020. I guess when you are good at sloganeering you start to think that's all you need, but, as you say, stoking racial fears can only take you so far. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Hmm...I hadn't considered that, but it sounds right. Honestly, I think we'd all be better off shutting down social media for 3 hours every day, so we can all get some work done and maybe think more clearly. 

I don't know if you read Jonathan Haidt's "Babel" essay in the Atlantic, but it's so far the best account of what's going in terms of how insular moral bubbles (especially when driven by social media virality) lead to a lot of institutional dysfunction and stupidity, on both left and right. It's more dangerous on the right, but it can get quite stupid and dysfunctional on the left as well.

If you haven't read it, and can't get beyond the paywall, they still let you listen to the audio version:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/05/social-media-democracy-trust-babel/629369/

 

[Week]

Thank you @Raja and @Larry of the Lake

I thought I was going insane. The selective reading to create a presumption to then react to is maddening. The Left is attacked for being too inclusive and for not being inclusive enough. Whatever is most convenient.

I'll agree with @TrackerNeil that there is a need for a better 'story'. However, I think we need to lose the idea that republicans are better at telling stories. They are solely stoking hate and resentment and not really with any coherent narrative.

Their consistent ability is more to parrot the same phrasing, often devoid of meaning, as shibboleths to identity and align within their tribe (CRT, anti-wokism, communism, socialism, etc).

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Week said:

I thought I was going insane. The selective reading to create a presumption to then react to is maddening. The Left is attacked for being too inclusive and for not being inclusive enough. Whatever is most convenient.

I presume you're talking about me here, so can you point me to where I was selectively reading? Or changing goalposts for whatever is more convenient.

I'm happy to consider that I was not making the strongest argument, or was not considering something. But I must say that you seem to be rather quick to paint my own arguments as made in bad faith. Maybe there's simply some disconnect of communication, and we both feel a bit crazy when people aren't seeing what we see?

[Week]

4 hours ago, DMC said:

Just when you thought CNN couldn't get any dumber...

I mean seriously what the hell were they thinking?  And not that I care, but way to put one of your up and coming anchors in a situation that will necessarily embarrass her.

She's already embarrassed herself in her past with the Daily Caller.

 

[Mindwalker]

Up and coming? Good grief. (I've watched a longer part of the CNN rally now.)

Edited May 11, 2023 by Mindwalker

[Zorral]

6 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

what is the price for being the butt of the leading Republican presidential candidate’s jokes? ...

Trump’s disrespect for women this evening was palpable and stunning. The audience’s approval was even scarier.

This sort of posturing, grimacing and funzies make even those of the Roy family's contempt for anyone Not Them look mild in comparison to these nazi-fascists.  They desire the entire world to watch them stretching for ever greater public display of ugly and hate.

Also re the orange monster, the judge specifically ordered no more defamatory statements of E. Jean Carroll, yet, here we are.  Is there going to be any consequences for this for him?  "You decide!"

BTW, concerning why the jury didn't convict him for rape:

In Trump’s Trial, a Secret Fight Over a Juror’s Right-Wing News Source
E. Jean Carroll’s lawyers tried to exclude the man, who listened to podcasts by the provocateur Tim Pool. He remained on the jury that found the ex-president liable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/10/nyregion/trump-carroll-trial-juror-right-wing-podcast.html

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Zorral

[DMC]

42 minutes ago, Week said:

She's already embarrassed herself in her past with the Daily Caller.

I strongly suspect if she hadn't happened to work at Carlson's website, no one would care.  I don't know much about her, but I don't give a shit about some dumbass article she published as entertainment editor eight years ago.

Fact is she clearly is an up and coming anchor at their network, and it was really stupid to put her in such an impossible situation.

[Gaston de Foix]

11 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

Up and coming? Good grief. (I've watched a longer part of the CNN rally now.)

So I have a few thoughts about Kaitlan Collins/CNN and the narrative being pushed in some corners that (1) she did her job fact-checking Trump; (ii) it's management's fault; (iii) she did her best/it's impossible etc. etc.  To their credit, these are people who aren't denying that the town hall was a dumpster fire.*

1.  She's 31 years old, which is absurdly young.  Good for her, but she just doesn't have the decades experience interviewing people that Jake Tapper or a whole bunch of other people at CNN have.  I get that Trump would have/probably did veto Tapper, but that was an excellent reason NOT to do the town hall rather than do it on Trump's terms.  

2.  I don't know about this Daily Caller business, but IIRC she had difficulty standing up to Don Lemon about his abysmal "women in prime" comment.  Did she even say anything in response?  I'm sorry but if you don't have the cojones to stand up to Don Lemon, you ain't ready for Don Trump. 

3.  This was not the toughest interview that Donald Trump has done.  He's done MANY of them with the best in the business when in office with folks like Chris Wallace, Jonathan Swan, etc etc.  They were MUCH better than her, he was mismanaging a pandemic that killed 200,000 US citizens, and he still came out ahead because even the most rigorous interviewer is still giving him a platform and still allowing him to shape the world, and flood the zone with shit.    

4.  By contrast, when the major channels and apps deplatformed him after Jan 6, he withered.  He became a political pariah, and he would have remained one if Kevin McCarthy had not bent for him.   

5.  She took this gig willingly, making herself a interlocutor in DJT's comeback for the ratings.  He used her and CNN to play games with Fox, and they willingly complied.  Fuck her, and fuck CNN. 

6.  I'm sick and tired of this "oh, he's the front-runner for the republican nomination, we have to cover him" bullshit.  No you don't.  It's not news that he defends Jan 6.  It's not news that he defamed E Jean Carroll.  It's not news that he has supporters in the Republican party.  None of this is news or newsworthy.  Even though half or more of the audience was sitting silent yesterday in his most provocative statements, CNN has given the entire country the misleading impression that (a) he could say anything and enjoy raucous support; (b) those people clapping are representative of New Hampshire or USA.  They are not.  

*Unlike Chris Licht's morning after narrative, which we should also talk about: 

 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

This was not the toughest interview that Donald Trump has done.  He's done MANY of them with the best in the business when in office with folks like Chris Wallace, Jonathan Swan, etc etc.

Really think you're missing the point that the town hall format (a) isn't really an interview anyway and (b) is impossible to force Trump to answer anything when you give him an entirely partisan crowd to play off of.  I mean, it was disgusting CNN did it in the first place, but based on the circumstances it didn't matter who the the moderator is.

And I don't know why her age matters.

[Mindwalker]

@Zorral For some reason, what you quote shows up at mine but I didn't post it.

[Zorral]

Just now, Mindwalker said:

@Zorral For some reason, what you quote shows up at mine but I didn't post it.

I have no idea!  Quoting on this board isn't always the Thing it should be.  

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I presume you're talking about me here, so can you point me to where I was selectively reading? Or changing goalposts for whatever is more convenient.

I'm happy to consider that I was not making the strongest argument, or was not considering something. But I must say that you seem to be rather quick to paint my own arguments as made in bad faith. Maybe there's simply some disconnect of communication, and we both feel a bit crazy when people aren't seeing what we see?

Not to speak for Week, but yeah, probably.  An inference I'm making (not saying it's what your saying but it's how I'm reading it) is that you think the DNC or Dems are trying to appease an activist left wing of voters by race-forward messaging.  You mentioned the DNC 2020 messaging on police violence as an example of this.  I'm just not seeing that messaging.

The DNC and Dems position on police violence has essentially been to say police violence is bad, but completely shut out anything coming from the left on the issue.  See how things went with Defund the Police.  It was never in word or in spirit part of the DNC platform, and out of all the Dem MOC's you could maybe count a handful who could be described as supporters of defunding the police.  

Dem policy has been more cops and more police funding.  This does not mitigate police violence, and doesn't cater to a race-first analysis of police violence.  Dem leadership's criminal justice policy is much closer to Blue Lives Matter than Black Lives Matter.  

I'll admit I don't watch TV news so maybe I'm just missing a bunch of stuff the general population is exposed to, and I work with a bunch of rural blue collar types so I'm not privy to Ivory Tower type discussions.  But yes, the disconnect to me is being told that the problem with the Dem voting coalition is that it would be fine, but for the left / socialist part of it.  Usually we're (mostly accurately) accused of being too heavy on class-first consciousness. 

I mean if you go back to the 2020 primary posts in the politics thread you'll see me and Week pretty much at each other's throats about stuff.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Larry of the Lake

[Gaston de Foix]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Really think you're missing the point that the town hall format (a) isn't really an interview anyway and (b) is impossible to force Trump to answer anything when you give him an entirely partisan crowd to play off of.  I mean, it was disgusting CNN did it in the first place, but based on the circumstances it didn't matter who the the moderator is.

And I don't know why her age matters.

Inexperience, as I said.  

I refused to watch anything other than clips posted online so you could be right that more time was devoted to town hall, but from what I saw, a significant chunk was an interview with follow-up questions. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Gaston de Foix
didn't read OP carefully

[TrackerNeil]

4 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

The DNC and Dems position on police violence has essentially been to say police violence is bad, but completely shut out anything coming from the left on the issue.  See how things went with Defund the Police.  It was never in word or in spirit part of the DNC platform, and out of all the Dem MOC's you could maybe count a handful who could be described as supporters of defunding the police.  

I'm not sure you're right there. The 2020 party platform acknowledged racial disparities in who gets policed, and the school-to-prison pipeline, and the dangers of trying children as adults. It also called for a reduction in incarceration, and end to no-knock warrants, and tighter restrictions on use of force. All of that is due to leftist influence.

As to "Defund the Police", I think it was a bad idea and a worse slogan, and I'm glad the party never embraced it.

[Kalbear]

I'll also note that doing race-forward messaging is not appealing primarily to the left activist wing; they tend to be more focused on class-based messaging as Sanders et al represent. It appeals primarily to the black wing of the party. Note also that for the most part that wing is not in favor of less policing as a whole; they want more police presence and more active prevention in their community AND they want to make sure there is police accountability. 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Inexperience, as I said.  

I refused to watch anything other than clips posted online so you could be right that more time was devoted to town hall, but from what I saw, a significant chunk was an interview with follow-up questions. 

I just think it's clear Mike Wallace couldn't get an answer out of Trump in that context, so really don't see the point in going after the moderator.

[Gaston de Foix]

51 minutes ago, Zorral said:

This sort of posturing, grimacing and funzies make even those of the Roy family's contempt for anyone Not Them look mild in comparison to these nazi-fascists.  They desire the entire world to watch them stretching for ever greater public display of ugly and hate.

Also re the orange monster, the judge specifically ordered no more defamatory statements of E. Jean Carroll, yet, here we are.  Is there going to be any consequences for this for him?  "You decide!"

BTW, concerning why the jury didn't convict him for rape:

In Trump’s Trial, a Secret Fight Over a Juror’s Right-Wing News Source
E. Jean Carroll’s lawyers tried to exclude the man, who listened to podcasts by the provocateur Tim Pool. He remained on the jury that found the ex-president liable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/10/nyregion/trump-carroll-trial-juror-right-wing-podcast.html

 

Zorral, about the absence of a rape conviction, I should point out - the jurors have not talked publicly yet, and we don't know whether Juror 77 (the Tim Poole fan) played any particular role in that decision. 

I understand the logic, but the fact the jury decided so quickly would suggest to my mind it was more than just one right-wing hold out.  But we don't know, and to his or her credit they did vote to find Trump liable.  

[Kalbear]

As to the town hall thing, which I've not watched and only read about...

CNN is real stupid here. They should not be hosting this at all. They should definitely cover the town hall - it is absolutely newsworthy - but the standard way to cover it should be to not ever do it live, to report lies and fraud after the fact, and do not amplify any messages directly - paraphrase whenever possible, using as few direct quotes or clips as needed. 

But that's not gonna happen because it's a ratings juggernaut. And that is why we are, as a whole, fucked.