What is compelling about having Daenerys be someone other than the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella?

[Craving Peaches]

It seems to be a relatively popular theory that Daenerys was baby-swapped or something, and is not who everyone (we've seen so far) in the story including herself believes she is. I am confused on the mechanics and timing of it, and the motivation. But regardless, what do people find compelling about this theory? I am interested to know.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[BlackLightning]

Ditto

I'm marking my spot because I'm curious as well.

As if her current backstory (child of rape with said parents being sibling-spouses, born during a Cat-5 hurricane, grew up an orphan on the streets of various cities, raised by an abusive older sibling) isn't compelling enough?

[Corvo the Crow]

So that she won’t be an inbred.

[BalerionTheCat]

I understand they want her to be the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Because the PTWP must be the child of Ice and Fire (aka ASOIAF). But it makes no sens. Beside, there is no Ice in her.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I think it relates back to the salt and smoke thing, but I've had troubles articulating it well and I'm not going to stumble through it again right now. Shortly it's salt = familial entitlement and smoke = obfuscation and I think it applies to all 3 of Jon Dany and Tyrion and their somewhat obscured heritage (obviously I'm going with Tyrion IS Aerys' child).  

The shadow of the Mad King is the source of a lot of Dany's self doubt and I think as she embraces the violence of her heritage (which her walk at the end of Dance suggested she's going to do) this will be a bigger and bigger issue.  Finding out that she's not the heir to madness could be quite the cathartic moment for her and could be the point where she begins to truly chart her own path which could even eventually include acknowledging someone else as a legitimate ruler of Westeros, or at least she that doesn't have to take the throne as her birthright.

Finally, if the true father is in fact lord Hasty of Harrenhall then their reunion in the Riverlands could be quite the compelling event.

[Curled Finger]

Not throwing shade as I do find some of the information gathering impressive, but in some cases of these alternate identities/parentages the idea seems more important than why it's important.  But, it's not's really a discussion in those cases either.  

There are characters who scream for these discussions.  Dany not so much.  We are supposed to wonder about this lemon tree and red door, the place Dany thinks of as home and all that represents to our warrior queen.  We're with her as she learns what it means to be blood of the dragon.  She's complicated and her journey to self discovery and womanhood and power is complicated.  She needs to be a Targaryen to have this journey.   

So yah, what is compelling about having Dany be someone other than the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys?

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It seems to be a relatively popular theory that Daenerys was baby-swapped or something, and is not who everyone (we've seen so far) in the story including herself believes she is. I am confused on the mechanics and timing of it, and the motivation. But regardless, what do people find compelling about this theory? I am interested to know.

You mean on an emotional level?  Not sure I can help you. 

I can point you to arguable clues.  But they are only that.  They cannot compel you to believe the theory, if it so happens you don't like the theory.

I would not call it a "wildly popular theory".  In fact, I'd say it's pretty unpopular, at least on this forum. 

 

[Gilbert Green]

9 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Beside, there is no Ice in her.

There might be some wolf in her, though. 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

Funny that the dragon breath is icy.  I wonder what that means.  And her words about howling alone seems to echo Ned's words about the lone wolf dying but the pack surviving.

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry.

Does the lost wolf girl want to join the other wolves?

And then there is "three mounts must you ride."  So first horse, then dragon, and finally ... wolf??  But who knows.  Maybe it will be a unicorn.

[Gilbert Green]

On a personal level, I do not find Dany-as-power-fantasy to be appealing.

And it is obvious to me that Drogon is a monster.  He ate a little girl.  This alone suggests to me that GRRM might be taking the story in a direction that some fans might not want.

But I still like Dany enough to want her to have a somewhat happy ending.  Something different than a certain TV show gave us.

I guess that makes me open to possibilities that some might be hostile to.

[csuszka1948]

One of my biggest problems - something I didn't mention before - that the arguments are usually based on retcons or late-game additions from AFFC and ADWD.

For example, Young Griff=(f?)Aegon Targaryen wasn't invented as a character before GRRM scrapped the 5-year gap: after ASOS, he planned Dany to arrive to Westeros in the 4th book. Another example, Arianne (+the Dornish marriage pact), similarly wasn's conceived before the 4th book was released: in the first 3 books it is never mentioned that Doran has a daughter as a heir, while Quentyn is mentioned multiple times.

Almost all of these speculations about some conspiracy led by Illyrio&Varys and/or the Dornish are based on quotes and information from the last 2 books, but GRRM repeatedly told that he hasn't changed the ending of main characters for decades, and coming up with the idea of Dany being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna would definitely qualify as changing her ending.

[SeanF]

Too much time on peoples’ hands, as we wait for TWOW.  Hence the speculation that Dany was the daughter of Rhaella and Rhaegar.

[csuszka1948]

I don't think it's compelling, but let's quote Mourning Star:

"

I think her story works better for me if she isn't who she thought she was. If her cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart was her family and saved her life. 

If all her choices were her own.

If I look back I am lost, is the equivalent, to me, of refusing to admit one is afraid. And one can only be brave if one is afraid.

Her story is, in my opinion, all the more meaningful for being about the choices she makes.

And her heart's desire being a home, and a family, and love.

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

Banners carry arms, as in the sigil of a house.

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

I think this is a beautiful bit of word play that we will see played out in her story.

You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."
"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

Remember who you are.

I think it's been right there since the first book, and Stark blood flows through her heart, though she is as different as the sun and the moon from Jon."

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I would not call it a "wildly popular theory". 

I don't think it is wildly popular, I thought it was relatively popular, especially since baby-swap theories do not, from what I've seen, tend to be very popular.

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

In fact, I'd say it's pretty unpopular, at least on this forum. 

I haven't seen much love for it outside of the forum.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Too much time on peoples’ hands, as we wait for TWOW.  Hence the speculation that Dany was the daughter of Rhaella and Rhaegar.

Do you know if people had this theory before the last book was published or before the wait grew long?

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you know if people had this theory before the last book was published or before the wait grew long?

Hard to say as I only got into the series in 2011.

[Hippocras]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It seems to be a relatively popular theory that Daenerys was baby-swapped or something, and is not who everyone (we've seen so far) in the story including herself believes she is. I am confused on the mechanics and timing of it, and the motivation. But regardless, what do people find compelling about this theory? I am interested to know.

I am fine with it either way. Dany is interesting as the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, certainly.

But she is also interesting if she is not. She is, IMO, almost certainly the daughter of ONE of Aerys and Rhaella. But she has built her entire life around a deep sense of entitlement. She feels like the Seven Kingdoms owe her their loyalty whether they believe in her as a ruler or not. To me it would therefore be interesting if her entitlement bubble was popped at or very close to the moment when Jon learns that he IS by birth entitled (to something he does not want). I think it would bring balance and tension to our three heads of the dragon if in the end NONE of them can truly claim the throne without question and with absolute certainty.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Hippocras

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I am fine with it either way. Dany is interesting as the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, certainly.

But she is also interesting if she is not. She is, IMO, almost certainly the daughter of ONE of Aerys and Rhaella. But she has built her entire life around a deep sense of entitlement. She feels like the Seven Kingdoms owe her their loyalty whether they believe in her as a ruler or not. To me it would therefore be interesting if her entitlement bubble was popped at or very close to the moment when Jon learns that he IS by birth entitled (to something he does not want). I think it would bring balance and tension to our three heads of the dragon if in the end NONE of them can truly claim the throne without question and with absolute certainty.

The entitlement bubble could, I think, be burst regardless of whom Daenerys' parents were, if R+L=J is true and legitimate.

[Hippocras]

51 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The entitlement bubble could, I think, be burst regardless of whom Daenerys' parents were, if R+L=J is true and legitimate.

True enough.

I think the other element driving Dany theories is the fact that we still just don't really understand how certain pieces fit into it all. One the pieces that seems to have no clear place to go in the story is Ashara Dayne. Another is Aerys's womanizing and/or rapey behaviours towards people other than Rhaella. Both drive speculation just because we lack answers. So people are exploring all available possibilities.

Why, for example, did we need to learn from Barristan that Dany looks a great deal like Ashara? Doesn't have to mean anything, but it could.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Hippocras

[BalerionTheCat]

13 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

There might be some wolf in her, though. 

If you mean temper, the dragon are than the equals of wolves

[Sandy Clegg]

It’s a rather slippery question asking whether any given plot twist is ‘compelling’ or not because none of us are George enough to know how to make it fit with the rest of his imagined future plot. Nor are many of us skilled writers of any note, in all probability. 

So inevitably our dull answers get used as fodder for arguments that claim it’s therefore impossible for such twists to be possible. 

I think Quentyn’s entire arc redefined what constitutes ‘compelling’ as … any theme that George feels he wants to explore, really. He has the luxury of big books and indulgent publishers.

Edit: I’m grumpy today sorry.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Sandy Clegg