Does anyone actually support the Greens?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I'm not a fan of most of the Blacks. Rhaenyra becomes way too violent and unstable for me to get behind, Daemon was an awful human being, Jace and Luke and Joff seemed alright, before they died young, Aegon turned out to be a truly unfit king, Viserys seemed to be better but his son was easily the second-worst king of House Targaryen... And yet much as I dislike most of the main blacks, I still can't help but find them preferable to the greens.

Just on general principle, I dislike the notion that Rhaenyra's claim was opposed so thoroughly because she was a woman. But even putting my own notions aside, none of the greens were that much better than their opponents. Otto was a scheming social climber, Alicent was a bitch, Aegon was, if the rumours can be believed, a degenerate, Aemond was a sociopath, and Daeron was basically on the same level as Jace or Luke. The only ones I felt sorry for were Helaena and most of the Targs who were kids during the war. And even then I still lean black. 

Did anyone read this story and support the greens?

[Craving Peaches]

I do, although we are using the term 'support' very loosely here. I dislike them slightly less than the Blacks and I find Rhaenyra annoying... But to be frank both are just awful... Like having to chose between drinking bleach and sulphuric acid...

Edited June 27, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

I don't think the Greens had any redeeming features.

They weren't committing bad deeds in support of a just cause.  They just wanted to usurp the throne.  They threw the threw the first punches, and then they escalated the violence.  Their leaders were mostly repulsive people.  They began a fight for no good reason.

Even if one did think that barring women from the throne is a noble cause, they were willing to cast that principle aside, at the end.

[James Steller]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

Even if one did think that barring women from the throne is a noble cause, they were willing to cast that principle aside, at the end.

When did they do that? I recall that it was Rhaenyra who threw away her principle when it came to that Rosby inheritance. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Even if one did think that barring women from the throne is a noble cause

Erm, I think you will find that they are actually defending ancient and noble Andal succession law, which is... Completely... Different...

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I support neither, but I find the Greens more entertaining. Each side escalated violence, each side cared more about personal advancement above all.

Sometimes I wonder how things would have gone had Rhaenyra's claim never been challenged when Viserys died. If as a ruler she proved incompetent, I've no doubt many of her subjects would have blamed it on her sex.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

When did they do that? I recall that it was Rhaenyra who threw away her principle when it came to that Rosby inheritance. 

They wanted Jaehaera as Aegon II's successor, if he had no children.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

They wanted Jaehaera as Aegon II's successor, if he had no children.

I don’t think that’s hypocritical, that’s more poetic irony. The greens’ last Targaryen claimant is a scared little girl.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

 

Sometimes I wonder how things would have gone had Rhaenyra's claim never been challenged when Viserys died. If as a ruler she proved incompetent, I've no doubt many of her subjects would have blamed it on her sex.

What I wonder is what Daemon would have done once he became king consort.

[SaffronLady]

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

What I wonder is what Daemon would have done once he became king consort.

I'm gonna put "staying sexually faithful to Rhaenyra" at the bottom of the list.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

14 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm gonna put "staying sexually faithful to Rhaenyra" at the bottom of the list.

Don’t let the tiktok fans of HotD hear you say that.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

When did they do that? I recall that it was Rhaenyra who threw away her principle when it came to that Rosby inheritance. 

Aegon the Ass named Princess Jaehaera his heir

Rhaenyra didn't throw away her principle when it came to the Rosby inheritance. Rhaenyra is the only surviving child of Viserys' first marriage. Legally, Rhaenyra and her line comes before her half-siblings. She definitely missed her opportunity with the Rosby girl (and it came back to bite her when the girl refused to let her stay in Rosby) but the girl and her brother are the offspring of the same marriage.

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Erm, I think you will find that they are actually defending ancient and noble Andal succession law, which is... Completely... Different...

The word of the King is law.

And the King's will >>>>> ancient and noble Andal succession law.

The Greens weren't even defending Andal succession law. The Greens were power-hungry.

2 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Sometimes I wonder how things would have gone had Rhaenyra's claim never been challenged when Viserys died. If as a ruler she proved incompetent, I've no doubt many of her subjects would have blamed it on her sex.

Oh I'm sure, they would've blamed it on her sex. She set the standard.

If Rhaenyra had never been challenged, the realm would've been much better for it. I think Rhaenyra would've been an decent Queen and Jacaerys a great King.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

I recall that it was Rhaenyra who threw away her principle when it came to that Rosby inheritance. 

She never did that.

 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Erm, I think you will find that they are actually defending ancient and noble Andal succession law, which is... Completely... Different...

In what way?

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Aegon the Ass named Princess Jaehaera his heir

Nah, he named his nephew Aegon, even if he was forced to do that.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

In what way?

It was a joke. Maybe I should put them in italics...

[SeanF]

Going by Medieval English history, the will of the outgoing King was one of the most important determinants, in terms of the succession.  It could overrule primogeniture, so that Richard I made Jon his successor, rather than Arthur, the son of his older brother.

IMHO Viserys was well within his rights to make his daughter heir apparent.  

[csuszka1948]

I wouldn't say I like the greens more (Jacaerys seems much more competent King than anything the Greens could produce, so probably I would favor the Blacks as a whole), but there are legitimate arguments in their favor.

 

Namely, whether a King can name his successor based on his whims or has to obey the accepted customs of his country (which say a brother comes before a sister) and the previous rulings of the Great Council (which rules out succession through woman altogether). It's really about the limits of Targaryen rule, whether they can name their successors freely or have to conform to the feudal norms of their age.

 

Now all Black supporters, imagine if Viserys has named Daemon his heir. Do you think Rhaenyra and Aegon should have accepted it or not?

Because in the eyes of the non-hypocritical Green supporters (so not Otto Hightower), that's pretty similar to what Viserys has done by skipping Aegon in favor of Rhaenyra.

You can say that it's unfair that a woman can't inherit, but can't you say the same for a brother? I mean, currently I could leave all my wealth to my brother in my will if I wanted to and during the golden age of Rome, emperors usually didn't name their biological children (if they had any) as their heirs.

 

Sexism ('woman are unable to rule') is an important element of the Dance, but it seems more of a criticism of feudalism and systems based on the 'birthright' principle than anything else.

Edited June 28, 2023 by csuszka1948

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

during the golden age of Rome, emperors usually didn't name their biological children (if they had any) as their heirs.

This was because it was necessary for any man to hold direct command of armies to shore up their own political power given the high empire's insufficiently developed governmental machinery. If asked what Theodosius did to earned the epithet 'the Great', I will say that's cause he solved this particular problem.

BTW I don't believe Theodosius should be called the Great.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Now all Black supporters, imagine if Viserys has named Daemon his heir. Do you think Rhaenyra and Aegon should have accepted it or not?

Despite not being a Black, I genuinely believe if Viserys had realized the crisis he was cooking up by the time he was dying and named Daemon as his heir as he held his brother's hand on his deathbed, it was a better option for the realm than any of Viserys' children.

The only problem is, well, despite being the most capable Targ, Daemon wasn't exactly popular among the lords. The Greens may still accuse him of faking Viserys' last will and start the Dance anyway. Still, in this scenario, with Daemon in KL he might end the Dance very quickly.

On 6/27/2023 at 11:03 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Daemon was an awful human being

And the most experienced dragon rider when Viserys was dead, in addition to being a sorcerer and adventurer. Not a person I want close around my female relatives, but a swell guy for the history books.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

(which rules out succession through woman altogether

Fun fact it doesn't.

 

4 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Now all Black supporters, imagine if Viserys has named Daemon his heir. Do you think Rhaenyra and Aegon should have accepted it or not?

Yes.

Any and all complaints ought to be based on Daemon being crazy, not about his election being somehow illegal.

 

 

[sifth]

Yea, the Green's are pretty horrible, for basically starting the whole mess to begin with. All they had to do was honor Viserys wishes, but something something, "only men can rule", something something "the Great Coucil of 101". Perfectly logical reasons for steeling someones birthright and while her fathers blood is still warm at that.

Sure the Blacks take their revenge a little too far, but there wouldn't have been any reason for revenge if the Greens just yea know "DIDN'T START A WAR" in the first place. It makes it rather hard for me to have any sympathy for them at all, knowing that fact.

Edited June 28, 2023 by sifth

[KingAerys_II]

People like Blacks more, but Aegon never ordered the death of Rhaenyra's infant children. Rhaenyra didn't punish the behavior of Daemon for the Blood and Cheese thing, never fought a battle unlike Aegon and  tortured Tyland. One of the Strong Boys gave dragons to an analphabet and a drunk rapist. Aemond is scum, but Aegon didn't kill Aegon the younger and named him his heir, Daeron is decent and Helaena was better than Rhaenyra

Edited June 28, 2023 by KingAerys_II