The Fallen Commander

[LongRider]

7 hours ago, James West said:

Bowen will take the dying Jon somewhere to let him expire quietly and quickly.

What is this about?  I ask because apparently you haven't read the book.  

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

The Wildlings will indeed soil their drawers and run if it should come to pass that Jon rises again.  I don't discount it because Jon is a loner and will always be so until he and Arya reconnect as direwolves.  Jon, the pale wight, will be the next Night's King.  His followers will be the wights risen from the men he will murder as well as the wildlings who died in close proximity to the wall. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The Wildlings will indeed soil their drawers and run if it should come to pass that Jon rises again.  I don't discount it because Jon is a loner and will always be so until he and Arya reconnect as direwolves.  Jon, the pale wight, will be the next Night's King.  His followers will be the wights risen from the men he will murder as well as the wildlings who died in close proximity to the wall. 

My dude, wrong website.

https://archiveofourown.org
 

here friend 

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

My dude, wrong website.

https://archiveofourown.org
 

here friend 

Nah belongs on Wattpad or fanfiction.net. Ao3 has barebones quality control which that post lacks.

[SeanF]

Among the nonsense, there is the kernel of an argument.

You can argue that Jon was embroiling the Watch in a fight they could not win and/or taking on far too much, by marching on Winterfell, and sending a mission to Hardhome.

But that doesn’t alter that Marsh is a blinkered bigot, Slynt a vile mutineer, and the Boltons despicable.  Nor that killing the Lord Commander, as opposed to having a well-reasoned argument with him, made the situation much worse.

[LongRider]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Among the nonsense, there is the kernel of an argument.

You can argue that Jon was embroiling the Watch in a fight they could not win and/or taking on far too much, by marching on Winterfell, and sending a mission to Hardhome.

But that doesn’t alter that Marsh is a blinkered bigot, Slynt a vile mutineer, and the Boltons despicable.  Nor that killing the Lord Commander, as opposed to having a well-reasoned argument with him, made the situation much worse.

All this plus assassination is a crime, it's murder.  Bowen and gang were in the wrong to attempt to assassinate their Lord Commander.  

[csuszka1948]

25 minutes ago, LongRider said:

All this plus assassination is a crime, it's murder.  Bowen and gang were in the wrong to attempt to assassinate their Lord Commander.  

 

Well, their Lord Commander has just read out a letter that accused him of using sorcery to fake the burning of Mance and send the King Beyond the Wall to rescue his sister, and didn't deny the accusations; then, he announced a plan to attack Winterfell* with an army of wildlings. The logical conclusion is that he wanted to crown himself King of the North.

Their previous arguments were all ignored on a rational (they are parts of the realms of men - correct, even if Marsh is bigoted to see it) or irrational (they are innocents, let's ignore the risk and the food situation) basis, they didn't have any reason to believe that a well-reasoned argument would stray him from this path and he arguably already crossed the line by the Shieldhall speech.

In their eyes, Jon looked like a tyrant needing to put down.

 

That doesn't mean that Jon was wrong (he probably had a decent plan, not just marching to WF), you could rightfully argue that in crisis situations like this you need an enlightened 'tyrant' like him, just like the Romans appointed dictators.

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Well, their Lord Commander has just read out a letter that accused him of using sorcery to fake the burning of Mance and send the King Beyond the Wall to rescue his sister, and didn't deny the accusations; then, he announced a plan to attack Winterfell* with an army of wildlings. The logical conclusion is that he wanted to crown himself King of the North.

Their previous arguments were all ignored on a rational (they are parts of the realms of men - correct, even if Marsh is bigoted to see it) or irrational (they are innocents, let's ignore the risk and the food situation) basis, they didn't have any reason to believe that a well-reasoned argument would stray him from this path and he arguably already crossed the line by the Shieldhall speech.

In their eyes, Jon looked like a tyrant needing to put down.

 

That doesn't mean that Jon was wrong (he probably had a decent plan, not just marching to WF), you could rightfully argue that in crisis situations like this you need an enlightened 'tyrant' like him, just like the Romans appointed dictators.

Ramsay Bolton admits to a succession of vile crimes, and makes a series of outrageous demands, during the course of the same letter.  And, his reputation across the North as a wild beast, is sufficiently well known that Lord Manderly, Ser Davos, and Robett Glover discuss it together.

So, by choosing to ally with this man, Bowen and Co. have really placed themselves beyond the pale.

[csuszka1948]

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ramsay Bolton admits to a succession of vile crimes, and makes a series of outrageous demands, during the course of the same letter.  

 

 

 

And an accusation that Jon doesn't deny, he plays into it to get the support of the wildlings

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And, his reputation across the North as a wild beast, is sufficiently well known that Lord Manderly, Ser Davos, and Robett Glover discuss it together.

So, by choosing to ally with this man, Bowen and Co. have really placed themselves beyond the pale.

 

 

 

Their other opportunity is exactly what after Stannis has lost? They don't know about Aegon or Euron, this victory seems to end the war and Ramsay is the representative of the one crown that remains.

I am not placing them on a moral pedestal, just try to rationally look at their situation. Obviously they could have said "we should try, we should die" like Brienne, but most people are not like her. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by csuszka1948

[LongRider]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

So, by choosing to ally with this man, Bowen and Co. have really placed themselves beyond the pale.

Agree.  Bowen and co., tried an assassination, which is an illegal killing, you know murder.  How long had Bowen been in on a plot to murder Jon?  Tywin wanted Slynt chosen as LC, and later Cersei conceived a plot to kill Jon and take over the Watch that spectacularly backfired.  For both Tywin and Cersei, their contact in the NW was Bowen.   

All the barking and shrieking about Jon aiding Stannis and getting involved with and taking sides, loses credibility when Bowen was in contact with KL via crow mail and has been for a long time.  Bowen is no innocent.

[SeanF]

48 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Agree.  Bowen and co., tried an assassination, which is an illegal killing, you know murder.  How long had Bowen been in on a plot to murder Jon?  Tywin wanted Slynt chosen as LC, and later Cersei conceived a plot to kill Jon and take over the Watch that spectacularly backfired.  For both Tywin and Cersei, their contact in the NW was Bowen.   

All the barking and shrieking about Jon aiding Stannis and getting involved with and taking sides, loses credibility when Bowen was in contact with KL via crow mail and has been for a long time.  Bowen is no innocent.

That’s the point.  Bowen & Co., are not neutrals, they are pro-Lannister/Bolton.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 8/5/2023 at 11:55 AM, SeanF said:

That’s the point.  Bowen & Co., are not neutrals, they are pro-Lannister/Bolton.

Jon is more than lacking in neutrality. Meathead was actually going to attack the Boltons.  He was already undermining them before.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 7/4/2023 at 12:05 PM, Jon Fossoway said:

I do remember when I read AGoT for the first time, and that Bran dream, to me, just meant Bran seeing Jon in his new environment. The Wall is a cold, hard place, and Jon did want to go there and take the vows, even though in reality he had some late hour problems with it. The vision presented Jon in the process of leaving his past (life and warmth) behind as a brother of the Night's Watch. Again, that's my interpretation. I read AGoT more 20 years ago for the first time and I found it very literal in a lot of aspects that nowadays are interpreted over and over to absurdity.

Yes. I read nothing more in these few lines. It perfectly describes his current situation. It's a seeing of the present. Prophecies stuff is weirder than that.

On 7/2/2023 at 3:37 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

He wants to murder all of the Crows.

[Son of Man]

He lost a lot of blood.  Pale is also the messenger of death.  Jon the Pale Wraith who will haunt the halls of Castle Black, murder the Brothers, and become the servant of the Others.  

[Craving Peaches]

14 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Jon the Pale Wraith

That's a new one. Usually he is called Snowflake or Snow Wight.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

On 8/14/2023 at 3:15 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is more than lacking in neutrality. Meathead was actually going to attack the Boltons.  He was already undermining them before.

Because the Boltons were planning on annihilating the Night’s Watch if the Night’s Watch didn’t break their neutrality 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Jon betrayed the watch because he wanted to rescue Arya.  He had a picture in his mind of a girl on a dying horse and for that he ordered a dangerous wildling criminal to take her from Ramsay and bring her to the wall.  That's treason.  Sending Mance on that mission is the equivalent of declaring warfare on House Bolton.  Jon declared war on House Bolton.  Mance is sworn to the watch and the mission is illegal from every perspective. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Here's Looking At You, Kid

[Son of Man]

On 7/2/2023 at 8:37 AM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

In A Game of Thrones we are treated to one of Bran Stark's visions.  One line foretold what will happen to Jon.

Why pale?  Jon was stabbed multiple times and has already lost a lot of life blood.  His body grows hard because that is rigor mortis.  The body has died and death brings stiffness.  All that are obviously what happens to somebody who went from dying to death.  Jon will die from his wounds.  His body will follow the normal course of rigor mortis.  The more intriguing part is "as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

It is an easy interpretation, warmth is life and a dead body grows cold.  But there is a deeper meaning.  Warmth is compassion and caring.  We already know what Jon was thinking in his last seconds of life.  Revenge.  Murder.   He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

Jon has chosen his side before he died.  He chose family over duty.  He chose to betray the Night's Watch and everything it has stood for.  He broke the policy of neutrality.  He betrayed justice by sparing Mance Rayder and killing Janos Slynt.  It was corruption through and through.  He sent the Wildling criminal to rescue his sister on a mission that breaks every laws, every ethics of the Night's Watch.  Jon began the destruction of the one institution protecting Westeros from the White Walkers.  That is not all though.  He will come back and he will have the White Walkers to thank for bringing him back.  His heart will be cold and he will bring death to everyone in the North and as far South as he can take his wights.  He will reach the Trident and there he will meet his final ending through Dragonfire. 

Ominous tidings there. We have seen this happen to somebody before.  To Weymar at the beginning.  Jon is just like Weymar.  They were arrogant, temperamental, and not fit to lead.  Jon becoming a wight is a bigger threat to mankind because he will learn to warg.  An angry wight who can warg wolves is a threat to all in the north.  A bastard meeting between Jon and his wolves with Ramsay's Girls can liven things up in the humdrum story in the north.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Son of Man

[Kierria]

The battle of the bastards is an hbo creation.  It can still happen in the books if Stannis is killed and Arya fails to kill the Boltons.  The Boltons catch Arya and puts her to the question.  Arya dies and Jon leads a pack of wights to avenge his sister. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:09 PM, Darrow of Lykos said:

Because the Boltons were planning on annihilating the Night’s Watch if the Night’s Watch didn’t break their neutrality 

Ramsay threatened to attack because Jon sent the wildlings for Arya. Jon was interfering in Ramsay’s business.