Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

We’re at 21 pages on the prior thread.

continue.

@butterweedstrover

Fuck the Russian government.  Confusion and defeat to the Russian military and the mercenaries employed by the Russian military!!!

May Sunflowers grow tall and strong in all Russian fields!!!

You say the Russians don’t engage in systematic rape of Ukrainian civilians… but the Russian army engages in systematic rape of its own draftees and recruits:

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/russia1004/5.htm

Edited July 9, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

The volume of perversion of historical information and facts propounded by this poster, and the determination to force us to believe the preposterous assertions, while excusing it all on the basis of Swan Lake, remains ... astounding. Rape and theft and torture are not committed by innocent boys.  Well, maybe the plundering is, since that is the time immemorial manner of paying the soldiers.  But then so has been rape and torture been part of the pay package.

Also, you know, if one wishes to speak of Swan Lake as a distillation of the real Russia, there is Tolstoy; one does think of his descriptions of the Russian soldiers and what they do in War and Peace, for instance.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Zorral

[A wilding]

As for the missile attacks on Ukraine, the nadir for me was during Eurovision 2023 when the Russians attacked the hometown of the Ukrainian entry while they were performing their song. A couple of people were injured and there was some property damage.

An act of impotent rage and pathetic spite.

[butterweedstrover]

May God grant Russia a swift victory and allow peace to once more reign in the land of Ukraine. 
 

There is no systemic targeting of civilians or rape, but of course in wars civilians die all the time. 

Least we forget that Ukraine has a government which kidnaps civilians and throws them into the front under armed.  
 

And the nationalist militias too target their own people, but that isn’t discussed as much.

Now, the west has shown repeatedly that they will undermine any attempts at negotiation under the auspice of justice but let us pray ‘justice’ is not an excuse to bring down the motherland like which has been planned by these ‘liberal democracies’ (a term for which I have only scorn).  
 

Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and sisters and that will remain way beyond mere politics.

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Derfel Cadarn]

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

May God grant Russia a swift victory and allow peace to once more reign in the land of Ukraine. 
 

There is no systemic targeting of civilians or rape, but of course in wars civilians die all the time. 

Least we forget that Ukraine has a government which kidnaps civilians and throws them into the front under armed.  
 

And the nationalist militias too target their own people, but that isn’t discussed as much.

Now, the west has shown repeatedly that they will undermine any attempts at negotiation under the auspice of justice but let us pray ‘justice’ is not an excuse to bring down the motherland like which has been planned by these ‘liberal democracies’ (a term for which I have only scorn).  
 

Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and sisters.

Russia’s fucked. It has a looming demographic problem (like many countries), and killing off tens/hundreds of thousands of young men is only going to make it worse.

Ukraine has hard times to come, but a bright future awaits as part of the EU.

[Week]

Russia as a counterweight to the West is solely due to their nuclear arsenal. It's a delusion to believe that a declining kleptocracy has the same influence that or once did. It certainly used to be and could have been still! Mismanagement, corruption, and a backward looking worldview have kept the Russian people and society from flourishing.

https://www.populationu.com/gen/countries-by-gdp

Of course, it's never too late. Russia could simply end its invasion and leave Ukraine to focus itself on cleaning out corruption, moving on from it's status as a failing petrostate. That doesn't seem to be in the cards, however.

[butterweedstrover]

33 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Russia’s fucked. It has a looming demographic problem (like many countries), and killing off tens/hundreds of thousands of young men is only going to make it worse.

Ukraine has hard times to come, but a bright future awaits as part of the EU.

The west promises more than it can deliver. In this case Russia promises them more economically. Eastern Europe had a growing population under Russian subsidies and now are being looted of people by the west looking for cheap labor. 
 

The ‘miracles’ of Poland and Estonia just led to brain drain and rising suicide. 
 

If Russia is fucked demographically, then Ukraine is super fucked.

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

13 minutes ago, Week said:

Russia as a counterweight to the West is solely due to their nuclear arsenal. It's a delusion to believe that a declining kleptocracy has the same influence that or once did. It certainly used to be and could have been still! Mismanagement, corruption, and a backward looking worldview have kept the Russian people and society from flourishing.

https://www.populationu.com/gen/countries-by-gdp 

GDP is overrated. Russia is a resource rich country that can sustain itself, assuming it doesn’t break up. 
 

But the biggest difference is that it offers an IDEOLOGY against the west. It is a Christian nation that offers an alternative to the western tradition of assimilation. It is the other half of Rome. 
 

China, India, etc. are all inward looking and have no expansionist ideology like the west except for doing what is good for Hindus and the Han race. 
 

Russia isn’t concerned with ethnic Russians, it is concerned with building an empire.

13 minutes ago, Week said:

Of course, it's never too late. Russia could simply end its invasion and leave Ukraine to focus itself on cleaning out corruption, moving on from its status as a failing petrostate. That doesn't seem to be in the cards, however.

If they lose, it is over. As the west has repeatedly said allowed. They want to militarily conquer Crimea, home to the Russian fleet for hundreds of years, bankrupt the economy, demilitarize the state, and prosecute officials.  
 

There is no alternative of Russia which is a compliant liberal client state. Once it’s geopolitical independence there is nothing holding these territories together. And Moscow which is a landlocked metropolis will become an irrelevant backwater, not a prosperous micro-state. 
 

We lose Russian culture and the west, with competition holding it back, will show the true tyranny of absolute power in a world we’re no one can say no to them.

[Kalbear]

I'm guessing the abduction of thousands of Ukrainian children into Russia is just an extended field trip

[butterweedstrover]

9 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I'm guessing the abduction of thousands of Ukrainian children into Russia is just an extended field trip

Yeah sure, the abduction where Ukrainian parents find their children after going through a process and return home with them. 

What sort of authorities cooperate with parents if this is some sort of ‘genocide’.
 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/04/09/europe/ukrainian-children-in-russia-return-home-intl-hnk/index.html 

Children have no place in a war zone 

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Werthead]

The main action over the weekend has focused on Bakhmut. After multiple attempts and at least one heavy defeat, it looks like Ukrainian forces managed to breach the fortified heights west of Klischiivka and force the Russians to retreat. The trenchlines and defences were built by the Ukrainians themselves and oriented to defend against an attack from the east, the Russians had only partially completed re-orienting the defences otherwise the going would having been tougher.

As usual, some immediately took this to mean that Klischiivka itself had fallen, but the village is a mile or so away and still in Russian hands. The Russians moved forwards forces outside the village which were hit by Ukrainian GRAD fire, so they retreated into the buildings. The Ukrainians might have to root them out in close combat, which could be quite a lot of work.

The northern axis attack has been a bit stop and start, as Ukraine is pressing forwards into a densely-defended hinge of the Russian line around Berkhivka. The Russians have taken heavy losses around that area over the last few days but the Ukrainians seem to have been bloodied as well. The goal here seems to be to collapse a Russian salient running west towards Hryhorivka and then moving on the Donets-Donbas Canal to complete the encircling of Bakhmut's north-western sectors. Other Ukrainian units are moving to cut Klischiivka from Bakhmut (probably hoping to trigger an evacuation without fighting) and around Klischiivka from the south, aimed towards Andriivka. The goal here does not seem to be an imminent recapture of Bakhmut but to bring both the town and its supply lines under full artillery fire control. It already is for longer-ranged equipment.

Ukraine making a play for the Bakhmut sector is interesting, although it's been noted that it's the one area of the front where Russia has not had time to dig in and fortify. Again it seems to be stretching the Russian cover ability and logistics to its limit. Ukraine also launched counter-attacks from Lyman to recover some ground lost to the Russians in the last fortnight, and operations are continuing on the SW front. Although there seems to be some consideration that Ukraine is using these probing attacks to draw out Russian artillery and SAM and destroy it, and identify Russian supply depots that were out of HIMARS range but are now within Storm Shadow range.

On the political front, Erdogan decided to throw his hat back in the ring. He met with Zelensky, agreed that Turkey would support Ukraine's accession to NATO and made agreements putting Turkish companies in an advantageous position to help in Ukraine's reconstruction. He also reiterated his position on Ukraine's territorial sovereignty and that no territorial concessions should be made to Russia. Despite that tough line, he also confirmed he would host Putin next month and would attempt a diplomatic effort to end the war (Turkey is not signed up to the ICC so does not need to arrest Putin when he shows up). Erdogan seems to smell Russia's weakness even more than he did before and is keen to cash in on it to strengthen Turkey's position in the region.

Turkey has also again signalled that it will block Sweden's accession to NATO, but Biden is trying to sweet talk them with F-16s, whilst the EU may agree that Turkey can restart its stalled EU accession plan if agreements can be made, which may encourage Turkey to drop its opposition. I wonder if Erdogan is planning to use that as a bargaining chip in his talks with Putin.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Werthead

[Varysblackfyre321]

57 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It is a Christian nation

Wanna look up Russian church attendance?

 

58 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

offers an alternative to the western tradition of assimilation.

By assimilation here you mean Ukraine would probably get less homophobic and more democratic.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is no systemic targeting of civilians or rape, but of course in wars civilians die all the time.

If we ignore all the mass graves where we even find raped children.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Now, the west has shown repeatedly that they will undermine any attempts at negotiation under the auspice of justice but let us pray ‘justice

Can you even conceive of the possibility that the majority of Ukrainians do want to keep fighting until they get all their land back?

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

China, India, etc. are all inward looking and have no expansionist ideology like the west except for doing what is good for Hindus and the Han race. 

That’s a gross exaggeration of their isolationist tendencies dude.

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia isn’t concerned with ethnic Russians, it is concerned with building an empire.

That kinda nixes the whole narrative of them invading Ukraine to protect ethnic Russians.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

lose Russian culture and the west, with competition holding it back, will show the true tyranny of absolute power in a world we’re no one can say no to them.

You cry about tyranny as you gleefully cheer on a fascist dictatorship trying to snuff out a liberal democracy using blood and soil logic.

 

[butterweedstrover]

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wanna look up Russian church attendance? 
 

Lol, Church is just the origin. Communism was a continuation of the concept as is liberal democracy. And the church was a continuation of Roman expansionism.

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

By assimilation here you mean Ukraine would probably get less homophobic and more democratic. 
 

With no independence on monetary or military or diplomatic issues. Great victory for ‘freedom’. 

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If we ignore all the mass graves where we even find raped children. 
 

None of that is an exaggeration. Raped children everywhere. None of these graves have to do with burying dead bodies. And the Ukrainian military has no reason to lie for more public support.

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Can you even conceive of the possibility that the majority of Ukrainians do want to keep fighting until they get all their land back? 
 

Can you conceive that lying to them with false promises and sending them to the front as cannon fodder isn’t what they want. Or do you need more footage of Ukraine officials kidnapping people off the street to go and die for western imperialism.

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That’s a gross exaggeration of their isolationist tendencies dude. 
 

It’s about expansionism. The only other group is Islam (the other Abrahamic religion) but they don’t have a unified political system.

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

That kinda nixes the whole narrative of them invading Ukraine to protect ethnic Russians. 
 

It was about stopping Ukraine from becoming a militarized state servicing the enemies of Russia. 
 

But they were killing children, all with the approval of liberal democracies.

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You cry about tyranny as you gleefully cheer on a fascist dictatorship trying to snuff out a liberal democracy using blood and soil logic.

 

Russia is not fascist, it’s a multi ethnic state that promotes minorities all across its territory. The closest things to fascists in this war are the Banderites who think Ukraine culture is pure and separate from Russia with the latter needing extermination.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah sure, the abduction where Ukrainian parents find their children after going through a process and return home with them. 

What sort of authorities cooperate with parents if this is some sort of ‘genocide’.
 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/04/09/europe/ukrainian-children-in-russia-return-home-intl-hnk/index.html 

Children have no place in a war zone 

31 returned ...out of an estimated 20,000, who have been given re-education and indoctrination. Thanks for the link!

Quote

A report released in February detailed allegations of an expansive network of dozens of camps where kids underwent “political reeducation,” including Russia-centric academic, cultural and, in some cases, military education.

Ukraine’s head of the Office of the President recently estimated the total number of children forcibly removed from their homes is at least 20,000. Kyiv has said thousands of cases are already under investigation.

 

[butterweedstrover]

Just now, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

31 returned ...out of an estimated 20,000, who have been given re-education and indoctrination. Thanks for the link!

 

That was just one example, this has been going on from the start. And what were Russian schools supposed to teach them? That Russia is evil and has no cultural or spiritual virtue?

[Kalbear]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

That was just one example, this has been going on from the start. And what were Russian schools supposed to teach them? That Russia is evil and has no cultural or spiritual virtue?

They were not supposed to take children away. And I agree - the forced abduction and genocide of Ukraine by Russia has been going on from the start. I appreciate you're on the same page.

A really easy way to avoid having kids in a war zone is to not invade the war zone. A really easy way to avoid abducting kids is to not do that and instead send them back to their country of origin.

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

They were not supposed to take children away. And I agree - the forced abduction and genocide of Ukraine by Russia has been going on from the start. I appreciate you're on the same page.

A really easy way to avoid having kids in a war zone is to not invade the war zone. A really easy way to avoid abducting kids is to not do that and instead send them back to their country of origin.

They’re refugees, just like the refugees in Poland or Romania. Ukrainian just takes the number of refugees and calls them kidnapped exclusively from Russia. 
 

And ironically, most of these children are from Donetsk, the rebel held city which Ukraine has been bombing. 
 

Remember when your liberal hero was threatening those children? 

 

[Kalbear]

Also want to point out a previous statement i made about it being important to understand Putin and the general viewpoint they have. You should not remotely agree with the paranoid murder orc view, but the beliefs are sincerely held and matter a great deal to them. 

And again it means that diplomatic options are not likely to succeed. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try them but chances are good that they will only result in a delay and fracture of western alliances; they won't result in actual stoppage of the fighting. When the Russian point of view is that in some convoluted, stupid way that this is a fight for Russian identity and existence - that somehow Ukraine holds the key to their 500 year existence and way of life despite that being an obviously illogical and idiotic view - you can't dismiss it as a bargaining ploy. You have to extrapolate that into what it actually means for their goals and means for giving them something they want.

And they want to eradicate Ukraine as an independent country. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

GDP is overrated. Russia is a resource rich country that can sustain itself, assuming it doesn’t break up. 
 

But the biggest difference is that it offers an IDEOLOGY against the west. It is a Christian nation that offers an alternative to the western tradition of assimilation. It is the other half of Rome. 
 

China, India, etc. are all inward looking and have no expansionist ideology like the west except for doing what is good for Hindus and the Han race. 
 

Russia isn’t concerned with ethnic Russians, it is concerned with building an empire.

If they lose, it is over. As the west has repeatedly said allowed. They want to militarily conquer Crimea, home to the Russian fleet for hundreds of years, bankrupt the economy, demilitarize the state, and prosecute officials.  
 

There is no alternative of Russia which is a compliant liberal client state. Once it’s geopolitical independence there is nothing holding these territories together. And Moscow which is a landlocked metropolis will become an irrelevant backwater, not a prosperous micro-state. 
 

We lose Russian culture and the west, with competition holding it back, will show the true tyranny of absolute power in a world we’re no one can say no to them.

Where in the Bible did Jesus endorse mass rape and slaughter? Christian nation, my arse. The head of thr Russian church endorses this slaughter

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Where in the Bible did Jesus endorse mass rape and slaughter? Christian nation, my arse. The head of thr Russian church endorses this slaughter

Not Jesus, the Romans. Romans destroyed a people and then assimilated them. 
 

The Roman church stole his message, and continued the banner of assimilation under the guise of Jesus. If Jesus was the serious banner of the west or the church there would only be poverty and decay, that is what goodness is rewarded. 
 

Instead we have imperialism and plenty. Russia is the other half of that equation.