Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[Werthead]

6 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

And again it means that diplomatic options are not likely to succeed. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try them but chances are good that they will only result in a delay and fracture of western alliances; they won't result in actual stoppage of the fighting. When the Russian point of view is that in some convoluted, stupid way that this is a fight for Russian identity and existence - that somehow Ukraine holds the key to their 500 year existence and way of life despite that being an obviously illogical and idiotic view - you can't dismiss it as a bargaining ploy. You have to extrapolate that into what it actually means for their goals and means for giving them something they want.

And they want to eradicate Ukraine as an independent country. 

I agree with this, but the presentation of a diplomatic off-ramp for Russia by credible partners (like Turkey, and beyond that the likes of India, South Africa or even Israel, and certainly China) is important even if Putin and those who share his irredentist views would never consider them in a billion years, because others do not and are much more flexible, and for all we know they'll be in charge in a few years/months/weeks. We've seen already a moment arise when it looked like, even if just for a second, that Putin might be on the way out and it is entirely possible his replacement might take that off-ramp, given the golden opportunity to blame Putin for being forced into it.

You can pull out a seat at the table even if the guy on the other side is refusing to sit in it, because one of his entourage might shoot him in the head at any moment and then sit in it themselves.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

28 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That was just one example, this has been going on from the start. And what were Russian schools supposed to teach them? That Russia is evil and has no cultural or spiritual virtue?

How about Russia not kidnapping Ukrainian children to begin with?  Is that too much to ask for your glorious Russian Fatherland?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not Jesus, the Romans. Romans destroyed a people and then assimilated them. 
 

The Roman church stole his message, and continued the banner of assimilation under the guise of Jesus. If Jesus was the serious banner of the west or the church there would only be poverty and decay, that is what goodness is rewarded. 
 

Instead we have imperialism and plenty. Russia is the other half of that equation.

Is Russia a Roman State or a Christian State… they don’t coexist well…

[Fez]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

On the political front, Erdogan decided to throw his hat back in the ring. He met with Zelensky, agreed that Turkey would support Ukraine's accession to NATO and made agreements putting Turkish companies in an advantageous position to help in Ukraine's reconstruction. He also reiterated his position on Ukraine's territorial sovereignty and that no territorial concessions should be made to Russia. Despite that tough line, he also confirmed he would host Putin next month and would attempt a diplomatic effort to end the war (Turkey is not signed up to the ICC so does not need to arrest Putin when he shows up). Erdogan seems to smell Russia's weakness even more than he did before and is keen to cash in on it to strengthen Turkey's position in the region.

Turkey has also again signalled that it will block Sweden's accession to NATO, but Biden is trying to sweet talk them with F-16s, whilst the EU may agree that Turkey can restart its stalled EU accession plan if agreements can be made, which may encourage Turkey to drop its opposition. I wonder if Erdogan is planning to use that as a bargaining chip in his talks with Putin.

Also on the Turkey front:

 

[butterweedstrover]

26 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I agree with this, but the presentation of a diplomatic off-ramp for Russia by credible partners (like Turkey, and beyond that the likes of India, South Africa or even Israel, and certainly China) is important even if Putin and those who share his irredentist views would never consider them in a billion years, because others do not and are much more flexible, and for all we know they'll be in charge in a few years/months/weeks. We've seen already a moment arise when it looked like, even if just for a second, that Putin might be on the way out and it is entirely possible his replacement might take that off-ramp, given the golden opportunity to blame Putin for being forced into it.

You can pull out a seat at the table even if the guy on the other side is refusing to sit in it, because one of his entourage might shoot him in the head at any moment and then sit in it themselves.

Yes, the west will never accept anything but total domination of Ukraine. It’s why they refuse any guarantee of neutrality and kept arming radical militias, they want Russia destroyed. 
 

The west will do anything to win because they are ideologically committed to the expansion of liberal ‘democracy’. Nothing but a total defeat of Russian forces in Ukraine will satisfy them. 
 

An off ramp to you is a super militarized NATO with control of the Black Sea, nothing less. It’s the same reason you Wert claim Russia will invade Poland next, to make radical ideas seem moderate.
 

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yes, the west will never accept anything but total domination of Ukraine. It’s why they refuse any guarantee of neutrality and kept arming radical militias, they want Russia destroyed. 
 

The west will do anything to win because they are ideologically committed to the expansion of liberal ‘democracy’. Nothing but a total defeat of Russian forces in Ukraine will satisfied. 
 

Horseshit.  Zelenskyy was elected Constitutionally in 2019… he tried to make peace with Putin and end the fighting in the Donbas.  That didn’t suit Putin.  Putin thought invasion was the better option.

Putin fucked Russia.  No one else.  Unless you genuinely believe providing Ukraine the means to resist and push back the Russian invasion is the equivalent of the Russian invasion of Ukriane… which is absolutely insane.

[horangi]

31 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yes, the west will never accept anything but total domination of Ukraine. It’s why they refuse any guarantee of neutrality and kept arming radical militias, they want Russia destroyed. 
 

The west will do anything to win because they are ideologically committed to the expansion of liberal ‘democracy’. Nothing but a total defeat of Russian forces in Ukraine will satisfied. 
 

OK hmm, let me see if I've grokked your statements over the last few pages. 

1) If Russia either withdrawals from Ukraine or is beaten by the UAF, then Ukraine would join NATO.  OK I'm following so far, it is a fairly likely conclusion.  One made far more likely by the invasion.

2) Next if Ukraine and the 'west' join forces, then the Russian regime will collapse.  OK plausible, though recent events suggest that the regime is quite capable of doing itself in.

3) If the regime falls, the Russian empire will collapse.  OK less likely but in the realm of possibilities.

4) But where you really lose me is that were the Chechens and Tuvans etc. to head out on their own, somehow the Russians in Moscow would suddenly lose their culture, stop eating Borscht, the Bolshoi ballerinas and figure skaters would give up their livelihoods, and  the citizens would drag their copies of Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky to St. Basils and burn it all in a pique of despondency?  I mean contrary to your statements, the Russian people would still exist, in a smaller Russia.  Those people would still have values and traditions and cuisines- the things we generally perceive make up culture.

I know quite a number of both Russian Americans and Ukrainian Americans and both have managed to maintain vibrant cultural traditions that dont need to rely on some self-flagellating nonsense that one must constantly struggle and fight the good fight against the 'West' to have meaning in life or a flourishing culture.

Edited July 9, 2023 by horangi
clarity

[Werthead]

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yes, the west will never accept anything but total domination of Ukraine. It’s why they refuse any guarantee of neutrality and kept arming radical militias, they want Russia destroyed. 

Inaccurate assessment. Ukraine will never accept anything but Ukraine's total domination of Ukraine.

Ukraine also provided fairly significant guarantees of neutrality to Russia at the start of the conflict and beforehand, and agreed they would consider the status of Crimea and even the Donbas republics. Russia chose to abandon these talks or make them nonviable by invading territories that had nothing to do with the their traditional claims.

It's also worth noting that many countries in the west, including (at the time) France and Germany, would have strongly backed any such deal that kept Putin happy and kept the energy taps on. The US would also have been extremely happy with any deal that allowed them to maintain their "pivot to Asia," which repeated Russian adventurism in Georgia, Syria and Ukraine kept distracting them from.

If Russia, right now, withdrew its forces from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, concentrated its forces within the borders of Donetsk and Luhansk and focused its claims on those two oblasts and maintaining control of Crimea, then you'd see more significant fractures in the alliance about the attitude to Russia. Hungary would certainly move much more stridently into opposition and you'd see serious wavering from Italy, and probably some wavering from Germany and France. This would be a far cry from "Russia destroyed" and, indeed, would see Russia emerge with a net gain in territory and population.

Quote

The west will do anything to win because they are ideologically committed to the expansion of liberal ‘democracy’. Nothing but a total defeat of Russian forces in Ukraine will satisfy them. 

Nothing but a total defeat of Russian forces in Ukraine will now satisfy Ukraine, and they are the ones in the drivers' seat.

Although I suspect that is very much for internal PR consumption and that they would still consider a genuine deal which involved some moderate territorial concessions (but not five full oblasts). But they would take a lot of convincing at this stage that could be guaranteed.

Quote

An off ramp to you is a super militarized NATO with control of the Black Sea, nothing less. It’s the same reason you Wert claim Russia will invade Poland next, to make radical ideas seem moderate.

Before this conflict began, there was a lot of talk going on about NATO being too expensive, not worth it etc. Just a few years ago the American President was considering pulling out of it (effectively leaving it nonviable as an entity).

There is only one person who has "super militarized NATO" and that's Vladimir Putin.

I also don't recall anywhere where I suggested that Russia might invade Poland next (I recall some discussion of Duma representatives suggesting they bomb the airports in Poland acting as logistics hubs to resupply Ukraine, but that never gained traction, on the grounds they were not suicidal). In the advent of a total Russian military victory in Ukraine, its next target would have most likely been Moldova or Georgia, and if it was prepared to take on NATO the most logical place to start (with the lowest-hanging fruit) was the Baltic States. They also spent a lot of last year talking smack about Kazakhstan, until China told them to lay off it.

The outcome of this conflict will not be the destruction of Russia as a cultural or political identity, but it may be the destruction of Russia as a major global power. That is something that Britain, France, Portugal, and, in prior epochs, China has gone through, survived and, in some cases, has bounced back from for Round 2, and the United States may be facing it in the medium to long-term future. But as long as it has 6,000 nuclear warheads as the ultimate guarantor of its sovereignty, Russia cannot be easily destroyed in the way you keep stating.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Church is just the origin.

It’s also a pretty neat signifier for a countries religiousisty.

Russia lags behind the us in case you were wondering.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

And ironically, most of these children are from Donetsk, the rebel held city which Russia  has been bombing. 

Fixed that for you bud.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

With no independence on monetary or military or diplomatic issues.

Please don’t project your and Russia’s desires onto the west. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

returned ...out of an estimated 20,000, who have been given re-education and indoctrination. Thanks for the link!

Like literally the woman in charge of them just ‘adopted’ a kid. 
 

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Can you conceive that lying to them with false promises and sending them to the front as cannon fodder isn’t what they want.

What lies have been told to them that would make them want to be a Russian vassal if they recognized?

Be specific.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

The only other group is Islam (the other Abrahamic religion)

Islam isn’t a country or state, it’s a religion to which many people of disparate and competing countries practice.

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia is not fascist,

It’s a Dictator thats constantly harping on the west’s social liberalism and presenting aggressive military expansion based on blood ties and domestic crackdowns of ‘degenerates’

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

it’s a multi ethnic state that promotes minorities all across its territory.

Yeah that’s a lie. Hey wanna see the conscription and death rates of minority ethnic groups, usually non-white looking?

And Nazi Germany had poleland.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

The closest things to fascists in this war are the Banderites who think Ukraine culture i

Wagner.

[butterweedstrover]

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Inaccurate assessment. Ukraine will never accept anything but Ukraine's total domination of Ukraine. 
 

Ukraine is a dependency, they don’t make decisions for themselves, only what their masters allow.

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Ukraine also provided fairly significant guarantees of neutrality to Russia at the start of the conflict and beforehand, and agreed they would consider the status of Crimea and even the Donbas republics. Russia chose to abandon these talks or make them nonviable by invading territories that had nothing to do with the their traditional claims. 
 

It’s those same masters who have been integrating Ukraine into NATO. NATO is not binary, western powers have been infecting the Ukrainian military apparatus for eight years and no effort by the west was made to slow it down.

And Russia realized the Minsk agreement was bunk, just like Merkel said.

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It's also worth noting that many countries in the west, including (at the time) France and Germany, would have strongly backed any such deal that kept Putin happy and kept the energy taps on. The US would also have been extremely happy with any deal that allowed them to maintain their "pivot to Asia," which repeated Russian adventurism in Georgia, Syria and Ukraine kept distracting them from. 
 

The Ukraine project was something that existed since the 90s. Keep pretending the US were neutral actors in 2014. 
 

But I agree their main focus is China. But to destroy China first they have to get rid of Russia. Western adventurers were all over Ukraine for years.

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

If Russia, right now, withdrew its forces from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, concentrated its forces within the borders of Donetsk and Luhansk and focused its claims on those two oblasts and maintaining control of Crimea, then you'd see more significant fractures in the alliance about the attitude to Russia. Hungary would certainly move much more stridently into opposition and you'd see serious wavering from Italy, and probably some wavering from Germany and France. This would be a far cry from "Russia destroyed" and, indeed, would see Russia emerge with a net gain in territory and population. 
 

Today is different than two years ago. If Russia withdrew now Ukraine will be a member of Ukraine tomorrow, more heavily armed than ever. 

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Nothing but a total defeat of Russian forces in Ukraine will now satisfy Ukraine, and they are the ones in the drivers' seat. 
 

You create this government and then use it as an excuse to pursue the most extreme policy ends. “Well the Ukrainians want it so we have to destroy Russia and arrest all their political leaders.”

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Although I suspect that is very much for internal PR consumption and that they would still consider a genuine deal which involved some moderate territorial concessions (but not five full oblasts). But they would take a lot of convincing at this stage that could be guaranteed. 
 

Zelensky’s main worry is western demands, not his own people. Actually the people in the country he is most worried about are the far right militias.

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Before this conflict began, there was a lot of talk going on about NATO being too expensive, not worth it etc. Just a few years ago the American President was considering pulling out of it (effectively leaving it nonviable as an entity). 
 

Trump isn’t the establishment, and his ideas were immediately shot down. 

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There is only one person who has "super militarized NATO" and that's Vladimir Putin. 
 

Victim blaming.

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I also don't recall anywhere where I suggested that Russia might invade Poland next (I recall some discussion of Duma representatives suggesting they bomb the airports in Poland acting as logistics hubs to resupply Ukraine, but that never gained traction, on the grounds they were not suicidal). In the advent of a total Russian military victory in Ukraine, its next target would have most likely been Moldova or Georgia, and if it was prepared to take on NATO the most logical place to start (with the lowest-hanging fruit) was the Baltic States. They also spent a lot of last year talking smack about Kazakhstan, until China told them to lay off it. 
 

I distinctly remember this, but no Russia doesn’t randomly invade neighbors with no reason.

36 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The outcome of this conflict will not be the destruction of Russia as a cultural or political identity, but it may be the destruction of Russia as a major global power. That is something that Britain, France, Portugal, and, in prior epochs, China has gone through, survived and, in some cases, has bounced back from for Round 2, and the United States may be facing it in the medium to long-term future. But as long as it has 6,000 nuclear warheads as the ultimate guarantor of its sovereignty, Russia cannot be easily destroyed in the way you keep stating.

Ah, here it is, the lie. That Russia can exist as a pliant liberal rump state. Russian culture comes from its destiny as the third Rome, a Russian state with no political independence will be a backwater. 
 

There is a reason Moscow is a landlocked city far from the borderlands, to protect itself, without an empire it will be abandoned and decay into nothing.

Edited July 9, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s also a pretty neat signifier for a countries religiousisty. 
 

Check out Germany. And yet it’s still an important imperial cog.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Fixed that for you bud. 
 

So the rebels that you think are Russian FSB bomb themselves. Cool logic.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Please don’t project your and Russia’s desires onto the west. 
 

 

Listen to countries outside the west about how the IMF works, or ask Greece about the EU, or NATO in general.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like literally the woman in charge of them just ‘adopted’ a kid. 
 

God bless her for taking in an orphaned child.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

 

What lies have been told to them that would make them want to be a Russian vassal if they recognized? 
 

They don’t want to be kidnapped and killed either.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Islam isn’t a country or state, it’s a religion to which many people of disparate and competing countries practice.

Have you never heard of the caliphate? Political Islam is a thing.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

 

It’s a Dictator thats constantly harping on the west’s social liberalism and presenting aggressive military expansion based on blood ties and domestic crackdowns of ‘degenerates’ 

Not facism.

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah that’s a lie. Hey wanna see the conscription and death rates of minority ethnic groups, usually non-white looking? 
 

You want to see the rising political sway Islam has in Orthodox Russia, or the power of Jewish oligarchs. Would Hitler allow any of that?

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And Nazi Germany had poleland.

Wagner.

Prigozhin is a Jew.

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Keep pretending the US were neutral actors in 2014. 

The US did seem to want the protesters to compromise with the President.

Thankfully Ukrainians got rid of the puppet.

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I distinctly remember this, but no Russia doesn’t randomly invade neighbors with no reason.

Yeah they invade for bad reasons.

To suggest it has no reason  would be to deprive it of it agency.

10 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian culture comes from its destiny as the third reich,

It works just as well.

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

The US did seem to want the protesters to compromise with the President.

Thankfully Ukrainians got rid of the puppet. 
 

Nuland isn’t a person. The right sector was never funded by the west, a list of leaders wasn’t dolled out to this new government from their masters. 
 

All this was public information. Actual Russia’s deal was better than the EU, but Ukrainians were lied to.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah they invade for bad reasons. 
 

Well, arming Nazis that want to destroy your country seems like a good reason

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To suggest it has no reason  would be to deprive it of it agency.

It works just as well.

Lol, sure.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

So the rebels that you think are Russian FSB bomb themselves.

I think they try to bomb Ukrainians primarily.

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Prigozhin is a Jew.

Yeah some Jews are fascists, the man leading the Nazi militia is a fascist big surprise.

8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You want to see the rising political sway Islam has in Orthodox Russia, or the power of Jewish oligarchs. Would Hitler allow any of that?

Going a bit mask off maybe want to be careful. Anyway Hitler gave honorary status to the Japanese and Mussolini did this 

Quote

In 1934, after the creation of Italian Libya, Mussolini adopted a policy for encouraging comparisons with Islam, calling the local population "Italian Muslims of the fourth shore of Italy", building mosques and Quranic schools, preparing service facilities for the pilgrims going to Mecca and even making a High School ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Islam_(Mussolini)#:~:text=In 1934%2C after the creation,even making a High School

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ukraine is a dependency, they don’t make decisions for themselves, only what their masters allow.

That’s why Zelenskyy in the days leading up to the Russian invasion of Ukraine was telling the US to shit up with all the talk about the Russian invasion… because that’s how “dependents” behave.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nuland isn’t a person.

Pretty sure she’s real.

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The right sector was never funded by the west,

True and I’m glad you recognize there’s no significant evidence to say otherwise.

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

a list of leaders wasn’t dolled out to this new government from their masters.

Yep the person who’d become president was the next obvious candidate until he was replaced by a comedian.

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well, arming Nazis that want to destroy your country seems like a good reason

What Nazis were going to destroy Russia? 
How exactly was this to be accomplished?

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Lol, sure

It does. Hell at least with the Nazis they were harkening back to supposedly a direct mythological  linage of people who wouldn’t think them savages. Mussolini was actually Italian like he was in the area of what Rome would call part of its civilization.

But Russia???

Romans at their peak would wonder why distant savages are proffesiing such kinship with them. 

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s why Zelenskyy in the days leading up to the Russian invasion of Ukraine was telling the US to shit up with all the talk about the Russian invasion… because that’s how “dependents” behave.

Yeah we’ll talk is different from action. He was worried how his oligarchs we coup with economic decline.

[Padraig]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia’s deal was better than the EU, but Ukrainians were lied to.

This needs a link.

21 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Zelensky’s main worry is western demands, not his own people.

This needs a link.

It is an interesting way to argue.  Just throw out very dubious statements.

23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is a reason Moscow is a landlocked city far from the borderlands, to protect itself, without an empire it will be abandoned and decay into nothing.

No country deserves to be sacrificed just so that another country survives.

And you may actually underestimate your country.  It might actually be better than your very low opinion of it.

Quote

Anyways, imperial powers can use a hybrid of soft and strong power to get their way. All great strategists use their whole tool kit. 

I am glad you can at least accept that Russia used hard power between 2014-2022.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah we’ll talk is different from action. He was worried how his oligarchs we coup with economic decline.

You realize the Ruble is worthless now… right?

[butterweedstrover]

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think they try to bomb Ukrainians primarily. 
 

A city they control seized by people who hated the government in Kiev? Interesting.

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah some Jews are fascists, the man leading the Nazi militia is a fascist big surprise. 
 

Like Zelensky supporting Azov, C4, RS, etc.

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Going a bit mask off maybe want to be careful. Anyway Hitler gave honorary status to the Japanese and Mussolini did this  

Hitler also refrained from complimenting Japan for seizing Singapore from the British. But sure, Putin supporting and protecting ethnic minorities makes him a fascist. 
 

You know that is the main problem actual Russian Nazis in Ukraine have with him?

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Islam_(Mussolini)#:~:text=In 1934%2C after the creation,even making a High School

Keep digging.