Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[Spockydog]

 

 

[butterweedstrover]

49 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

 

 

I get this isn't directed at me, but people who can't differentiate between Russia making a mistake with their initial invasion and Russian having perfectly sound reasons for not surrendering in mass. 

But I don't think those people are trolls, they really believe the propaganda, and it's hard to overcome. Many people have fallen for war propaganda and the dehumanization of the enemy since the dawn of time. 

[butterweedstrover]

15 minutes ago, Zorral said:

As if a refugee from one of the Wagner troll farms that got shut down, yes?  The trolling showed up right about then.  I dunno.    Just noticing timelines coz that's what historians do.   Just as historians take notice that the people of Ukraine are doing the fighting to rid their lands of the Russians, which in no way supports the trolling that Ukrainian people want to be Russian, ruled by Russian and told who their friends are and are not by Russia.  Gee, one might think the people of Ukraine don't like it when Russians destroy their homes and cities and lands, murder them, rape and torture them, and steal their children, and order them to speak Russian and nothing else.

Geeze, I mean, the Ukrainian people are fighting very very very hard with every breath in their bodies, which why would they be doing this if it wasn't because Russia invaded them and they don't want Russia?

The facts that trolls don't bother with . . . .

The reason why Zorral, I think some people like yourself are unserious, is because you have to make straw men to argue against out of fear of dealing with the moral culpability your beliefs bring you. 

The people of Ukraine don't want to be invaded or conquered. They also don't want to be kidnapped on the streets and thrown into the frontline as human waves. 

But, trying to debate the substance of western military aims in Ukraine and the Nationalistic propaganda used to normalize ethnic cleansing and other extreme outcomes leads no where because some people have been too overcome by propaganda. 

[Relic]

17 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Geeze, I mean, the Ukrainian people are fighting very very very hard with every breath in their bodies, which why would they be doing this if it wasn't because Russia invaded them and they don't want Russia?

The facts that trolls don't bother with . . . .

Every single Ukrainian I know here in Prague hates Putin with a passion, and refuses to even consider surrendering to Russia. I've asked a few if they would consider some sort of peace settlement, so that they can start trying to piece their shattered lives back together and not a single one said "yes". Most of the people who were living here before the invasion are now sheltering refugees in their homes, and every single one is tending to a heart that was broken in February of 2022.

[Relic]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

propaganda used to normalize ethnic cleansing and other extreme outcomes leads no where because some people have been too overcome by propaganda. 

Lol, the fucking irony. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The reason why Zorral, I think some people like yourself are unserious, is because you have to make straw men to argue against out of fear of dealing with the moral culpability your beliefs bring you. 

The people of Ukraine don't want to be invaded or conquered. They also don't want to be kidnapped on the streets and thrown into the frontline as human waves. 

But, trying to debate the substance of western military aims in Ukraine and the Nationalistic propaganda used to normalize ethnic cleansing and other extreme outcomes leads no where because some people have been too overcome by propaganda. 

Troll.

[Kalbear]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

 

But, trying to debate the substance of western military aims in Ukraine and the Nationalistic propaganda used to normalize ethnic cleansing and other extreme outcomes leads no where because some people have been too overcome by propaganda. 

Conversely, it is a very old tactic to dismiss and ignore anyone that disagrees with you as "falling for the propaganda" instead of engaging with them on their facts.

I will merely point out that there's only one poster in this thread who repeatedly links mainstream sources to back their viewpoint only to have those exact articles refute them. This implies a heavy filter of information where only the absolute most confirming data gets through and absolutely everything else gets removed, showing a complete inability to change mind or behavior based on facts. 

I don't know if that's because of propaganda or indoctrination or a fervent need for preserving an identity, but it doesn't show any intelligent or rational ability to acknowledge reality or change behaviors.

[A True Kaniggit]

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

What was it that you said my little bipedal friend? Russia is "invading" Ukraine as we speak. Not Russia "invaded" Ukraine. 

It's awkward phrasing though I don't know if english is your first language. Assuming it is though you have a lot of reason to reframe troops in the defensive position as 'invading'. 

 

Yep Russian is "invading" not "invaded". (Well “invaded” is still correct as well) Because the invasion is still ongoing.

Just because the Russian military can't advance worth a shit doesn't mean they are not still invading Ukraine.

 

And I'm from the American South. We talk the bestest English!

Quack quack quackers quacking.

Edited July 16, 2023 by A True Kaniggit

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Scott, or Scot I guess. 

Last I remember, you conflated me saying the attack on Russian culture is unique compared to how western media treats other adversaries like Cuba and Iran. 

To which you said I don't support Iranian woman fighting for their right to free expression. 

How you get from point A to point B is a mystery. 

But perhaps its because you, like everyone else, are afraid to really deal with what you are doing and come to terms with your moral culpability. 

Troll.

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Conversely, it is a very old tactic to dismiss and ignore anyone that disagrees with you as "falling for the propaganda" instead of engaging with them on their facts.

I will merely point out that there's only one poster in this thread who repeatedly links mainstream sources to back their viewpoint only to have those exact articles refute them. This implies a heavy filter of information where only the absolute most confirming data gets through and absolutely everything else gets removed, showing a complete inability to change mind or behavior based on facts. 

I don't know if that's because of propaganda or indoctrination or a fervent need for preserving an identity, but it doesn't show any intelligent or rational ability to acknowledge reality or change behaviors.

If sources outside of Telegram and media you deem 'uncredited' gets leaks into the western mainstream sources, it's hard for people like you to deny. 

Like the fact that Ukrainian mothers go through a process to find their kids who were evacuated from a warzone. But your conformation bias tells you this is genocide because legitimate authorities you rely upon (The US state department, the ICC, etc.) are telling you it is so. 

But lets get back to the discussion, which people can't handle. 

Russian shouldn't have invaded, but it cannot give up now or face total disintegration. 

Kiev and NATO are aiming to disintegrate Russia based on their stated goals (militarily or otherwise). 

But of course only the most extreme outcomes like the ethnic cleansing (excuse me: forced assimilation) of Crimea and Donetsk, the demilitarization of Russia, and the normalization of genocidal nationalist fantasies (Bandera was not a historian) can be considered, anything less is fascism.  

[Relic]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian shouldn't have invaded, but it cannot give up now or face total disintegration. 

Self-inflicted wound. Hard to feel any pity when you're murdering your neighbors on their soil.

You guys would be much better off if you did everything you could to get your current ruler away from power, and hope someone more sensible takes up the reigns. 

[A True Kaniggit]

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

1) Russian shouldn't have invaded,

2)but it cannot give up now or face total disintegration. 

 

1) Damn straight

2) Has this been thoroughly researched? I’m fairly certain Russia could withdraw it’s troops from Ukraine tomorrow and it will continue to exist. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by A True Kaniggit

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Has this been thoroughly researched? I’m fairly certain Russia could withdraw it’s troops from Ukraine tomorrow and it will continue to exist. 

Putin's propaganda machine says victory or death, so it's gotta be victory. Duh. 

[Corvinus85]

I suppose there is precedent for a significant status quo change in Russia's history due to poor performance in a war. WWI is an example as Tzarist Russia is ended. The ill-advised Afghanistan invasion hastened the end of the USSR. But none of these war failures resulted in the end of the Russian people and their culture, just the government type at the time. 

[butterweedstrover]

15 minutes ago, Relic said:

Self-inflicted wound. Hard to feel any pity when you're murdering your neighbors on their soil.

You guys would be much better off if you did everything you could to get your current ruler away from power, and hope someone more sensible takes up the reigns. 

It's not about some hypothetical 'justice' it's about the active military and political aims of Kiev and NATO to destroy Russia, not pursue negotiations. 

And to achieve such extreme ends, they are using extreme methods. This collapse isn't based on gravity, but an incredibly obsession from western imperialist. 

They will normalize genocidal rhetoric, promote ethnic cleansing, and kidnap Ukrainian civilians as human waves to break Russian defenses all so that a thousand year old civilization will crumble and be replaced by western hegemony.  

 

13 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

1) Damn straight 

You misunderstand, their objectives of removing the nationalist regime in Kiev were correct. The way they want about it was wrong. 

13 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

2) Has this been thoroughly researched? I’m fairly certain Russia could withdraw it’s troops from Ukraine tomorrow and it will continue to exist. 

We've been talking about it for multiple pages, but again this is not because of Moscow, but the actions you are taking to assure it's realization. 

And anyone like myself who suggests you are wrong or extreme for trying to promote genocidal nationalism, military domination, and cultural erasure is branded a fascist. 

Which shows you how successful propaganda works. 

[Relic]

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It's not about some hypothetical 'justice' it's about the active military and political aims of Kiev and NATO to destroy Russia, not pursue negotiations. 

And to achieve such extreme ends, they are using extreme methods. This collapse isn't based on gravity, but an incredibly obsession from western imperialist. 

They will normalize genocidal rhetoric, promote ethnic cleansing, and kidnap Ukrainian civilians as human waves to break Russian defenses all so that a thousand year old civilization will crumble and be replaced by western hegemony.  

 

How can you possibly accuse anyone in here of being brainwashed by propaganda when you're off the deep deep end without a life jacket. Jesus. 

You sound like those "they will not replace us" dudes and every other xenophobic conspiracy theorist. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Relic

[Heartofice]

26 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Kiev and NATO are aiming to disintegrate Russia based on their stated goals (militarily or otherwise). 

 

I might have missed this, but where was the stated goal of NATO or Ukraine the disintegration of Russia? 
 

It is pretty clear to almost everyone in the West that they don’t want Russia to break up, as that would be a very bad outcome from a safety and economy point of view for the west, imagining a bunch of nukes end up in the hands of a load of Chechen warlords for instance.

All I’m seeing so far is some imagined aims that don’t seem to be backed up by anything.