Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, JGP said:

Are. Russians. Not. Men.

From what I gather from what they describe Russians there’s a level of outright of dehumanization either in presenting them as genetically blessed with divine mandate(the Third Rome if you will), and just not capable of atrocities or categorizing their natural state of being one of miserable  and need to violently expand

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Werthead]

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Objectively safer, I think is debatable. A perception of feeling safer, yes, probably.

Russia is impotent to do anything to Sweden with any kind of measurable strategic or tactical success. So a petty / petulant attack on Sweden for...reasons...would have a context that likely makes membership or not of NATO irrelevant to Russia's motivation to specifically target Sweden. And it seems unlikely any other non-NATO country in the region could or would attack Sweden for any reason other than as a Russia ally in a conflict that has already engaged NATO members. And for countries further afield (China, India(?), Pakistan(?) Iran(?)), to attack Sweden would not be the first shot fired in what would no doubt be some kind of global conflagration in which NATO is already well involved.

The main strategic concern for Sweden is control of Gotland, the large island in the Baltic which acts an immobile aircraft carrier to control access to the Baltic and also provides potential long-range air and missile cover over Kaliningrad. The idea of Russia just sailing out and taking the island was pretty remote, but making Sweden a full member of NATO immediately removes even the vague possibility.

Aside from Gotland, it's relatively hard to attack Sweden without attacking Norway and Finland first, or sailing right past them, so the feeling already was that Sweden being out of NATO whilst Finland was in was not a massive problem, it just looked a bit half-arsed thanks to Turkish political point-scoring. The reverse would have been a bigger strategic headache.

Meanwhile, Ukraine has stepped up it use of drone-dropped thermobaric grenades to destroy armoured vehicles outright, using just very small drones.

This is the second vehicle I've seen left with its hatch open, probably abandoned in the grey zone between the main lines.

Interesting signs, not fully confirmed yet, that Ukraine's push on Robotyne has achieved a breakthrough, with Ukrainian units reaching and occupying abandoned parts of the main trenchline east of the town. Robotyne is a primary objective for an advance on Tokmak. Still no sign of the heavy assault brigades behind them, but if they want to force a breach to the sea, this is easily the best place to do it (which the Russians know, hence the heavy defensive lines around Robotyne, Tokmak and Melitopol just to the south).

Edited July 13, 2023 by Werthead

[Zorral]

14 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m ignoring him… for a reason.

Indeed, life becomes so improved when ignore is in effect. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Indeed, life becomes so improved when ignore is in effect. 

Oh… I haven’t been blocking him.  I’m just deliberately ignoring him.  

Edited July 13, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Kalbear]

Hey, at least they're not babies

https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-prisons-civilians-torture-detainees-88b4abf2efbf383272eed9378be13c72

Quote

Many civilians are picked up for alleged transgressions as minor as speaking Ukrainian or simply being a young man in an occupied region, and are often held without charge. Others are charged as terrorists, combatants, or people who “resist the special military operation.” Hundreds are used for slave labor by Russia’s military, for digging trenches and other fortifications, as well as mass graves.

But I was told on good authority that the Russians were not persecuting people for being Ukrainian. Weird!

Quote

Torture is routine, including repeated electrical shocks, beatings that crack skulls and fracture ribs, and simulated suffocation. Many former prisoners told the AP they witnessed deaths. A United Nations report from late June documented 77 summary executions of civilian captives and the death of one man due to torture.

Russia does not acknowledge holding civilians at all, let alone its reasons for doing so. But the prisoners serve as future bargaining chips in exchanges for Russian soldiers, and the U.N. has said there is evidence of civilians being used as human shields near the front lines.

Look, we all know how difficult the ballet training is

[Derfel Cadarn]

Not exactly confirmed But interesting 

 

[Werthead]

Russian Telegram comments that Wagner forces rolled out from their field camps about twelve hours ago and nobody seems to know if they're going back to the front or elsewhere.

So far only video of one projectile over Voronezh, but some reports from the ground of artillery fire. Ukraine could hit Voronezh with drones, but not with anything more substantial. Reports that the intercepted missile was Storm Shadow seem to be bullshit, the projective was travelling at below 100mph, or one-sixth of Storm Shadow's speed; also, to be Storm Shadow, it would have to be launched from inside Russian airspace, which is improbable in the extreme.

One claim that Ukraine has destroyed 23 Russian artillery systems and counter-battery systems in the last 24-36 hours alone.

Russian counter-attacks around Bakhmut repulsed, Ukraine now claims that the Bakhmut theatre has developed a "southern front" around the city. It looks like Ukraine is serious (or wants Russia to think they're serious) about enveloping Bakhmut completely. They've started hitting ammo and resupply dumps to the NE of Bakhmut that were being used to resupply Russian forces in the city.

Now a substantial explosion in Kurchatov, Kursk.

Not related to the war, but Sochi has taken a pounding in the last 2-3 days from unprecedented flooding and storms, which at one point resulted in three tornadoes forming simultaneously in the Black Sea off the coast.

ETA: Now two trucks crashed into each other in Moscow and exploded. No suggestion this is related to anything other than an accident, but a lot of commentators in Russia getting edgy.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Werthead

[Wilbur]

I am very definitely confused by Sullivan's consistency in opposition to arming Ukraine.

Thread by @TrentTelenko on Thread Reader App – Thread Reader App

[mcbigski]

Wow, more Wagner treachery again.  Considering how harsh the last reaction was, I must wonder if it's all more staged managed non sense.

But in the words of lunch lady Doris, "most cluster bombs mean more iron!".  So at least munition manufacturers are going to get theirs.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, mcbigski said:

Wow, more Wagner treachery again.  Considering how harsh the last reaction was, I must wonder if it's all more staged managed non sense.

So the dozens of Russian soldiers Wagner killed was a meme?

1 hour ago, mcbigski said:

But in the words of lunch lady Doris, "most cluster bombs mean more iron!".  So at least munition manufacturers are going to get theirs.

So it was bad for American revolutionaries to fight because gun makers and blacksmiths would have profited?

 

[Martell Spy]

Putin has proposed a potential new Wagner commander. Here's what we know
From CNN's Lauren Kent, Pierre Bairin and Uliana Pavlova

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-07-14-23/index.html

Quote

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin has proposed to Wagner fighters that a senior mercenary named Andrey Troshev now command the private military group, according to comments the Russian leader made to the Kommersant newspaper that were published Friday.

Putin appears to have created a split between senior fighters from the mercenary group and its leader Yevgeny Prigozhin — whose whereabouts are currently publicly unknown — at least in terms of the narrative emerging from his comments to Kommersant. The paper was reporting on a meeting held by the Russian president five days after Wagner's short-lived rebellion collapsed at the end of June – a meeting also attended by Prigozhin and several dozen senior Wagner combatants.

Responding to a question from Kommersant, Putin said Wagner "does not exist" under Russian law, adding that the Russian government needs to determine how to handle the organization legally.

According to the paper, Putin outlined a number of options for the future of Wagner mercenaries, including continuing to fight under their direct commander, a man going by the call sign "Sedoy," meaning "Gray Hair."

 

 

[Werthead]

Replacing your frontman with a lesser-known figure, even a competent one, never works well. Just ask Iron Maiden.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Putin has proposed a potential new Wagner commander. Here's what we know
From CNN's Lauren Kent, Pierre Bairin and Uliana Pavlova

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-07-14-23/index.html

 

‘Wagner does not exist” wow he’s really pulling as Stalin.

[Maltaran]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

‘Wagner does not exist” wow he’s really pulling as Stalin.

We have always been at war with Eastasia

[butterweedstrover]

On 7/13/2023 at 5:21 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

I know, the people sitting from their homes and telling innocent Ukrainians to go die against Russian defensive lines so that they can get an upper hand in a geopolitical debate while engaging in fascist historical revisionism about how Russians are sub humans who aren't even real slavs makes my blood boil. 

All the while arming Nazis who torture dissidents and destroy any semblance of democracy left in Ukraine.   

 

Oh wait, your not talking about them, are you? Genocide, the only ones talking about genocide are the people trying to maximize the death count while hoping the belief in racial supremacy among Ukrainian nationalists will be enough to fuel the complete collapse of a thousand year old civilization. 

Where does a westerner come up with the phrasing: "Ukraine was a word long before Russia." 

That sentence is the most lunacy filled rhetoric based on a belief in racial supremacy from some of the most radical groups on earth who slaughtered Poles and Jews all in the name of 'Ukraine'. 

So how does such fake history enter the vocabulary of a westerner? Maybe because their 'heroes' in the Ukrainian government also believe in fascism, and Bandera is not just a relic of some few hard right militias but the entire government that wants to cleanse the country of anyone but the most ardent believers in Ukrainian nationalism. 

Ethnic cleansing, yeah that is genocide. And that is what you support.  

Edited July 15, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:26 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

From what I gather from what they describe Russians there’s a level of outright of dehumanization either in presenting them as genetically blessed with divine mandate(the Third Rome if you will), and just not capable of atrocities or categorizing their natural state of being one of miserable  and need to violently expand

 

No, I never claimed they are ethnically superior. Just that the UN claiming they rape babies and having people here say such crimes go on sanctioned (for all intent and purpose) by the Russian high command tells me people here aren't thinking critically about this stuff. 

Because they need to believe Russians are subhuman orcs who deserve to die in order to make genocidal rhetoric about how Ukraine is the original Russia and that Ukrainian nationalists are 'heroes' looking to ethnically cleanse the borders of their 'country' of Russian people (Ukrainians who are part of the Russian world) equates somehow to 'democracy'. 

And all the mass killing in this war for justice, all to win an argument online.  

[Derfel Cadarn]

16 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, I never claimed they are ethnically superior. Just that the UN claiming they rape babies and having people here say such crimes go on sanctioned (for all intent and purpose) by the Russian high command tells me people here aren't thinking critically about this stuff. 

Because they need to believe Russians are subhuman orcs who deserve to die in order to make genocidal rhetoric about how Ukraine is the original Russia and that Ukrainian nationalists are 'heroes' looking to ethnically cleanse the borders of their 'country' of Russian people (Ukrainians who are part of the Russian world) equates somehow to 'democracy'. 

And all the mass killing in this war for justice, all to win an argument online.  

All those people in Bucha and elsewhere raped and killed themselves did they?

Suppose Ukraine are the nazis, since they have a unit called Wagner, thr callsign of its founder who has nazi tattoos … wait no, Wagner belongs to Russia.

[butterweedstrover]

40 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

All those people in Bucha and elsewhere raped and killed themselves did they?

Suppose Ukraine are the nazis, since they have a unit called Wagner, thr callsign of its founder who has nazi tattoos … wait no, Wagner belongs to Russia.

Prigozhin is a Jew and Nazism is outlawed in Russia. Anyone who does that in Russia is a criminal. Nazism is a sign for people who want to destroy Russia, it has no place within the Russian government. 

Bandera and Ukraine are different. Bandera has a distinct place in the Ukrainian government.

Where does an American (or Canadian or Scot or Irishman, or Frenchman, etc.) learn the phrase: 

“Ukraine existed long before Russia.” 
 

That is verbatim the language of Banderaites who want to cleanse Ukraine of any ‘mongol’ (Russian) influence. Their language, their religion, their supporters, etc. 

If Bandera was such a fringe figure for only a few hard right militias, why does such rhetoric permeate among its liberal supporters in the west?

Why would a western liberal with no cultural or familial ties to Ukraine utter such a statement as “Ukraine existed before Russia was even a word”. 

That sentence is based on a belief in racial supremacy. And its ideology wants actual genocide, not just of the Russian language, but the Russian people. 

Who is saying this stuff then? Azov? or the political establishment in Kiev which people here think are heroes of democracy?

What does “Ukraine existed before Russia” have to do with supporting democracy? What about democratic ideals come from calling Russians ‘orcs’ and their civilization a lie. 
 

Does that come from people interested in promoting an inclusive liberal democracy? Or from people who want to cleanse their territory of the ‘lesser’ people. Not just the church and the language (which they are already doing) but Ukrainians who identify as Russians. 

Where do you think this genocidal rhetoric leads? Because we already saw the execution and torture of ‘collaborators’ in Mariupol (2015) and Kherson (2022). Do you think these people want peace? 

So while you send arms to the conflict where poor underfed conscripts are thrown into the frontlines and mass death ensues, how are you fighting genocide? How are you defending democracy?

People like this Atkins guy (never heard of him) talk about fueling this war as if it were done for sake of peace and justice. Rather than negotiate a settlement, they want the fighting to spread to Sevastopol and Donetsk city. What do you think happens there? Do the people get to voluntarily choose to become patriotic Ukrainian nationalists? how do you see this ending? 
 

I find it ironic people who want this war to end without the complete destruction of Russian forces, without the promotion of ethnic cleaning, without the disassembly of the government in Moscow, without complete western military control of the Black Sea, they are the ones accused of being pro-genocide. 

I won’t do the same to you, but it’s ironic that people on your side think only Russians are dumb enough to fall for propaganda. You on the other hand are not susceptible to such things, yet this entire thread is made up of people who unanimously support the most extreme conclusion to this war. 

It’s almost as if propaganda is a two way street, and you are being fed the same thing as the Russians.

Edited July 15, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Denvek]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

All the while arming Nazis who torture dissidents and destroy any semblance of democracy left in Ukraine.   

We're arming Ukraine, not Russia.