Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[Tywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

and it became a gangster state, 

Time for a bit of levity:

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Prigozhin is a proud Jew. He didn't appreciate the Nazis slaughtering his ancestors. 

Whatever the reason, Nazism is outlawed in Russia but not Ukraine. 

We know what it's based on, we know who said it originally, and we know it's a hysterical lie. So why are we using such language? Who is saying? What is their motive? 

Fascism is what it is. 

You dehumanize Russia in steps. First its the mobilized boys, then its the culture, then the religion, then all Ukrainians (Rus) who identify as Russian who need to cleansed from the "internationally recognized borders."

PMC’s are outlawed in Russia too. Not exactly enforced

[Werthead]

Girkin pretty annoyed this morning. His observation is that Ukraine is focusing increasingly on the western and eastern ends of the line and stretching them to breaking point, and that the "Surovikin Line" of heavy trench defences is massively lacking in the troops and heavy weapons to defend it.

He says that the Russian MoD plan is to try to weather the storm and inflict enough casualties on the Ukrainians to make progress impossible and enforce a stalemate, but he is doubtful of the success since Ukraine switched to sniping Russian supply lines, starving men at the front of ammunition, and can then achieve breakthroughs with small numbers of troops and vehicles with low losses. He believes a Ukrainian breakthrough, probably more in Zaporizhzhia than Bakhmut, is likely and once the Ukrainians achieve a major breach, Russia does not have sufficient reserves to reinforce the area.

Lots of anger against Putin directly on Telegram, which we haven't seen before in this volume. A lot of Russian troops calling him "old grandpa" or even "senile old grandpa."

Edited July 15, 2023 by Werthead

[Zorral]

Putin says he tried but failed to oust Prigozhin after Wagner mutiny
President tells newspaper he met mercenary chief to negotiate terms for fighters’ continued participation in Ukraine war

"The interview appears to be part of a broader effort by the Kremlin to win the loyalty of the Wagner rank and file, even while seeking to discredit Yevgeny Prigozhin. Photograph: AP"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/14/putin-says-he-tried-but-failed-to-oust-prigozhin-after-wagner-mutiny-figters-ukarine-war

Quote

 

Vladimir Putin has said that he sought and failed to have Yevgeny Prigozhin replaced as the leader of Wagner’s fighters in Ukraine after the mercenary chief rebuffed his proposal during a meeting at the Kremlin this month.

Putin’s version of events, which appeared in an interview with the Kommersant newspaper, was a surprise admission that the Russian president was still negotiating a takeover of the Wagner mercenary group.

Analysts have suggested that last month’s short-lived Wagner rebellion exposed Putin’s weakness and inability to manage the conflicts among the various power players in his regime.

On Friday, Belarusian state media broadcast footage it said showed that Wagner instructors had begun to arrive in Belarus as part of an exile deal reached with the Kremlin after the aborted mutiny.

Putin told the columnist Andrei Kolesnikov that he met Prigozhin and 35 Wagner commanders at the Kremlin after the mutiny and sought to negotiate terms for the mercenary group’s continued participation in Russia’s war in Ukraine.

 

Am continuing to wonder with regard to the Wagner troops that are in Africa.  Are they continuing to actively rape, torture, kidnap and plunder?  Who is running them?  Not seeing any info about this, though I could be looking in the wrong places.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Girkin pretty annoyed this morning. His observation is that Ukraine is focusing increasingly on the western and eastern ends of the line and stretching them to breaking point, and that the "Surovikin Line" of heavy trench defences is massively lacking in the troops and heavy weapons to defend it.

He says that the Russian MoD plan is to try to weather the storm and inflict enough casualties on the Ukrainians to make progress impossible and enforce a stalemate, but he is doubtful of the success since Ukraine switched to sniping Russian supply lines, starving men at the front of ammunition, and can then achieve breakthroughs with small numbers of troops and vehicles with low losses. He believes a Ukrainian breakthrough, probably more in Zaporizhzhia than Bakhmut, is likely and once the Ukrainians achieve a major breach, Russia does not have sufficient reserves to reinforce the area.

Lots of anger against Putin directly on Telegram, which we haven't seen before in this volume. A lot of Russian troops calling him "old grandpa" or even "senile old grandpa."

I’m not surprised by the last.  This has been the worst-managed military campaign I’ve ever witnessed.

I actually think a 1943-45 era Soviet army would have performed far better than this lot.  Despite worse equipment, they had far greater numbers, and much greater strategic and tactical skill.

[Wilbur]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’m not surprised by the last.  This has been the worst-managed military campaign I’ve ever witnessed.

I actually think a 1943-45 era Soviet army would have performed far better than this lot.  Despite worse equipment, they had far greater numbers, and much greater strategic and tactical skill.

Absolutely.

Plus the lack of a unified command, and furthermore the preferred method of command communications seems to be type-written instructions circulated via manila inter-office memo folder.

[Zorral]

This haunting history explores 350 years of ‘Russocentric exceptionalism’, debunking the myths fuelling Putin’s imperialism

War and Punishment: The Story of Russian Oppression and Ukrainian Resistance by Mikhail Zygar – review

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jul/09/war-and-punishment-the-story-of-russian-oppression-and-ukrainian-resistance-by-mikhail-zygar-review

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

I am just shocked that y’all are still “debating” the OBVIOUS TROLL. Over 17 pages. 

Maybe next time just call it the “Smacking Trolls Around Since February 2022 Thread”? If I’m remembering correctly that Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022? Or as Troll Person might have it, “Russia extending its liberation attempts”. 

Feb. 23, 2022 is when the massive Russian invasion started.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

That all the context, political aims, or even reality can be ignored. Russia is bad, and Russia must be destroyed. It doesn't matter how we do it, the war of justice must go on. 

As you prove with every single post. But rest assured, reality has that nasty habit to win out in the end.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

And to think you're not a victim of propaganda. 

Can you spell irony? Just asking for a friend here...

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

. And the Ukrainian government wants all Russians (Ukrainians who identify as Russians) cleansed from their "internationally recognized" borders. The culture and language, that is the first step, then people get to 'voluntarily' choose to be followers of Ukrainian Nationalism. 

Good thing you do not buy into propaganda.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

You don't see how you are no different. You believe you are immune to propaganda, that you are immune to historical revisionism, that your side is good and its military aims should therefore be pursued to the most extreme extent. And any dissenters as to that point are defending genocide. 

I am saying you (the general you) are the ones caught up in historical lies, spiritual beliefs, and the desire for total conquest. 

Thank you so much for sharing this 100% non partisan, propaganda free piece of insight.

 

Now tell us about the humanitarian nature of Rusich and the Russian Imperials?

Edited July 15, 2023 by A Horse Named Stranger

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Madame deVenoge said:

I am just shocked that y’all are still “debating” the OBVIOUS TROLL. Over 17 pages. 

Maybe next time just call it the “Smacking Trolls Around Since February 2022 Thread”? If I’m remembering correctly that Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022? Or as Troll Person might have it, “Russia extending its liberation attempts”. 

I'm normally on team Don't Feed, but sometimes you've got to race.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I’m not surprised by the last.  This has been the worst-managed military campaign I’ve ever witnessed.

I actually think a 1943-45 era Soviet army would have performed far better than this lot.  Despite worse equipment, they had far greater numbers, and much greater strategic and tactical skill.

Probably, but not as easily as you'd think. A WWII-style Soviet army would have to lose its entire Ukrainian contingent (which was not insignificant), its Ukrainian commanders and so on. It would also lose all of its US and UK Lend Lease support, plus those elements would be restored to a theoretical Ukrainian WWII military.

Also, the Soviet Union achieved tremendous success by fighting defensively. Its major victories were all defensive battles (including Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad and Kursk) right up until Bagration, and Bagration, although ingenious, was also partially a result of utter German incompetence and inability to regroup when necessary. The Soviets were not expecting the scale of their victory and were in fact unable to fully exploit it because they themselves did not have the reserves or logistics to pursue the retreating Germans further (otherwise some Soviet generals believed they could have reached Berlin before the end of 1944, although that does feel overly optimistic).

Certainly in WWII with full mobilisation and a full acceptance that their very existence was on the line, there was no doubting the full patriotic spirit of the Soviet people (some looking askance from the Ukrainian contingence at the Holodomor), something almost wholly missing in this war.

45 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Feb. 23, 2022 is when the massive Russian invasion started.

22 February 2014 is when the war started.

[Zorral]

Wagner mercenaries entering Belarus as Minsk announces ‘road map’ for joint military drills

https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-wagner-lukashenko-prigozhin-mutiny-d5bb8f5ba03ffe35a29205f44bec25d9

A Newsweek piece to which I will not link -- suggested this could mean that an invasion of Poland is being planned, but then said there's been no suggestion of that, so why did the article get published?  

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Poland is a NATO member. An invasion of Poland would end Lukahsenko's reign pretty much instantly.

So whoever came up with that suggestion should take way less cocaine.

[Celestial]

46 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 

Certainly in WWII with full mobilisation and a full acceptance that their very existence was on the line, there was no doubting the full patriotic spirit of the Soviet people (some looking askance from the Ukrainian contingence at the Holodomor), something almost wholly missing in this war.

22 February 2014 is when the war started.

Let's not generalize. I've read cogent arguments that the Soviet collapse in 1941 was due to a large part of the Red Army surrendering en masse or putting up only a token resistance (cue the 4 million prisoners captured by the Germans by the end of 1941; and not everyone who went missing during the soviet retreat ended up in German captivity...). The Soviet High Command itself acknowledged the situation at the time: I think I've read 4 or 5 general orders signed by Stalin and his cronies, from 1941 alone, which detailed "defetist" behaviour and ordered reprisals against the guilty. This would explain the massive defeat, despite the fact that the Red Army was armed to the teeth: at least the "Stalin shot the best generals" never made much sense to me, because in 1942 the soviet had managed to stalemate the Germans, despite the massive losses from 1941 (which included tens of thousands of officers, including many of general rank). It's simply impossible to rebuild your officer corps in less than a year, so, if that had been the case, the gap between the Germans' and the Soviets' performance should have increased in 1942, not decreased. I would argue that the execution of the "best generals" or the outdated Soviet weaponry were post-war myths put into circulation by the Soviet regime because it would have been impossible for them to admit that stalinist rule brought the Soviet population to such a level of exasperation that many preferred even the Nazies to the communists. In 1941, the defections were also helped by the fact that, in the conditions of the retreat, the Soviet control over the troops weakened and soldiers could often find themselves without the NKVD nearby.

Once it became clear what was in store for the prisoners in German camps, the German achieved no further strategic success.

"Full patriotic spirit" is nothing but movie talk. In real life, if your country treats you like shit, most people would reciprocate the sentiment. There are very few those who would be willing to sacrifice for a country no matter what.

I would also add something: debating with the troll is not as pointless as you think. Of course, he'll never acknowledge any fact, but other people can get better informed on different aspects of the conflict from your rebuttals.
 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Celestial

[butterweedstrover]

12 minutes ago, Celestial said:

.

I would also add something: debating with the troll is not as pointless as you think. Of course, he'll never acknowledge any fact, but other people can get better informed on different aspects of the conflict from your rebuttals.
 

Wtf, I’m not a troll. 

A person you disagree with isn’t a troll. Actually these rebuttals don’t do anything. 

I say Ukraine’s aim at de-Russifying the country amounts to ethnic cleansing when Ukrainians who identify with the Russian world refuse. 

I say the western aim of militarily occupying the Black Sea and having the Russian elite arrested will lead to two things: 

1. De-facto occupation of a new government 

2. the collapse of a unified Russian state 

I say the government in Kiev displays genocidal rhetoric by claiming (like Bandera) that Ukraine is older than Russia and that their enemies are orcs. 

And I question why western liberals repeat this rhetoric verbatim if the Bandera ideology was relegated to a few far right militias.

None of this is conducive of a democratic environment, hence I question the war aims of western leaders and the destruction of Russia, not just as a country but as a culture and its religious organs. 
 

People here respond with saying: it’s black and white, Russia is evil, Russia must be punished. 
 

They hand wave genocidal rhetoric by trying to attribute the rape of children as part and parcel of being a Russian soldier and baseless claim these acts are (for all intent and purpose) sanctioned by Moscow. 
 

All to make the goal of destroying all of Russia seem moderate and reasonable. 
 

So yeah, I think these people, just like Russians, are subsiding off of propaganda, hence the total unanimity and cult like following in pursuit of Ukrainian victory’.  
 

To you that means I’m either serious in which case I’m a genocidal fascist or I lie in which case I’m a troll. 
 

Not surprising then that I think your the ones who have fallen victim to propaganda.

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

say Ukraine’s aim at de-Russifying the country amounts to ethnic cleansing when Ukrainians who identify with the Russian world refuse. 

 

That’s not what ethnic cleansing means chief.

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I say the western aim of militarily occupying the Black Sea and having the Russian elite arrested will lead to two things: 

Which elites?

18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I say the government in Kiev displays genocidal rhetoric by claiming (like Bandera) that Ukraine is older than Russia and that their enemies are orcs. 

It’s fine to call Russian soldiers who murder and rape orks. If you don’t want to be called orks don’t act like fantasy villains.

 

Also it’s usually used in trying to nullify the point of Russia having a blood right to Ukraine.

Honestly don’t like it since in the end Russia doesn’t have the right to rape and plunder and annex their neighbors because of past relationships with them.

24 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

None of this is conducive of a democratic environment, hence I question the war aims of western leaders and the destruction of Russia, not just as a country but as a culture and its religious organs. 

The only way Ukraine becomes a democracy is when it’s free of Russia.

24 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

People here respond with saying: it’s black and white,

It is.

Russia could have not invaded. Russia can simply leave Ukraine and try investing internally to fix its domestic problems. 
 

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia must be punished. 

So long as it keeps acting like an asshole Sure.

26 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

They hand wave genocidal rhetoric by trying to attribute the rape of children as part and parcel of being a Russian soldier and baseless claim these acts are (for all intent and purpose) sanctioned by Moscow. 

So who got punished for Butcha?

 

[A True Kaniggit]

54 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Wtf, I’m not a troll. 

Well that’s disappointing. I could forgive you if your were a troll.  

[A True Kaniggit]

@butterweedstrover

True or false. Russia should immediately withdraw from Ukrainian territory to end the war. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

35 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Well that’s disappointing. I could forgive you if your were a troll.  

He could live under the Kerch bridge.

Well, until it gets blown up

[butterweedstrover]

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That’s not what ethnic cleansing means chief. 

It is when all Ukrainians who follow the Moscow orthodoxy, speak Russian, promote Russian culture, politically support closer ties with Russia, etc. are given a choice to have a change of opinion. 

Or else be cleansed. What do you think is going to happen when Ukrainian nationalists (the government) occupy Crimea or Donetsk city? They are all going to bask in liberal democracy and have a debate of opinion? Or are they forcibly going to change the demographics? 

That is what your military aim doesn't consider. 

You support genocidal rhetoric, condone ethnic cleansing, then want those same powers to dominate territory where people might not agree. 

Actually, that is the same position as China via Taiwan, only more extreme because unlike the CCP, Banderites think Ukraine is racially superior to the 'fake' slavs.  

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Which elites? 

All the ones that matter. Once you arrest them who is going to be in charge of this new transition government? Nalvany? No, it's going to be a western backed transition government like in Kiev circa 2014. 

The difference is a unified Russian state can't exist without geopolitical independence, hence it will break up. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s fine to call Russian soldiers who murder and rape orks. If you don’t want to be called orks don’t act like fantasy villains. 

That's not the stipulation. They call all Russian soldiers orcs and make fun of them when they die no matter who. 

And that is just the first step in genocidal rhetoric which Banderites are promoting in the west. Then they start making fun of Russian citizens who get eaten by sharks on vacation, they normalizing the banning of Russian culture, sports teams, etc. 

Even one of my favorite youtube channels delisted a video just for complementing the Moscow metro system (!!) 

Ask yourself, did this happen with any of the other western foes? Cuba? Iran? 

No, Persian culture (I have normal Persian-Azerbaijani blood) is endlessly celebrated in the west, same with Cuba and Cuban dissidents.  

Russian liberals (anti-Putin) aren't celebrated, nor is their culture, because genocidal goals have reshaped the dialogue. 

Which you support. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Also it’s usually used in trying to nullify the point of Russia having a blood right to Ukraine. 

No, listen to what the Bandera supporters say, not what you want them to say. 

They and government officals in Kiev discredit claims that the Russian state has anything to do with Kievan Rus, that they are illegitimate slavs who are actually from the golden hoard, that pure slav culture needs to remove the Russian taint. 

What does that mean when being a Russian just means a Ukrainian who identifies with the Russian world? Ethnic cleansing, which is what your policies are leading towards.  

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Honestly don’t like it since in the end Russia doesn’t have the right to rape and plunder and annex their neighbors because of past relationships with them. 

No, and their goal isn't to rape and plunder, but to remove western military and security interests entangled with this new government, a government dedicated to the destruction of the Russian state (listen to Budanov some time, not just Girkin). 

Obviously this is very important for Russian imperial interests, and imperialism is their state. Yet western imperialists are so power hungry they want to force themselves into every place even if that means arming Nazis and sacrificing an entire population to break the backs of a political enemy. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The only way Ukraine becomes a democracy is when it’s free of Russia. 

'Democracy' in this case is just a term for a western dominated liberal democracy, which means a country with no military or financial (or diplomatic) independence. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It is.

Russia could have not invaded. Russia can simply leave Ukraine and try investing internally to fix its domestic problems.  

It cannot just leave. The west is clear it wants to remove the government in Moscow, destroy the black sea fleet, and turn Russia into an impotent backwater dominated by competing interests. 

If it backs out know, it is over. That arrest warrant for Putin was crafted alongside the US state department, and the Banderites in Kiev want the economic power of the slavic world to shift from Moscow to Kiev, these are there plans and they don't hide them either. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

So long as it keeps acting like an asshole Sure. 

Your government doesn't plan to forgive and forget, they want to use this opportunity to finish the Russian state once and for all. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So who got punished for Butcha?

 

Because they haven't lost yet. But if they do, then Bucha will only be the tip of the iceberg.